Hanging out in Whittington inevitably leads me into coveting some things (of course!) so... I find myself looking at English hammer guns yet again, but this time I'm beginning to discern a pattern in my analysis. Normally it is a very straight-forward process, cost-versus-benefit going first with perceived-use patterns followed closely after that first cut, but... not this time. Since hammer guns are more "art" to me than just useful tools, I'm finding another variable in the mix and I'm going to call that rather newly-discovered variable "Visual Interest". In some ways for me, it now outweighs the normally more-practical approach.

Most guns are merely tools, with no time and even less-effort being expended in the finished product. Accordingly, these "tools" are usually quite crude (there are probably better examples, but think of a cheap 1920s pocket pistol or an inexpensive military-surplus rifle from say... sometime before WWII). If they're dependable and functional you can still appreciate them (& even desperately need them on some occasions). If they belonged to some beloved person in your life (past or present) they can be treasured and even revered, but they are still, really... only "tools". "Fine" guns on the other hand, are usually differentiated from the rest of the pack by the amount of time and human-effort invested in their appearance (more highly-figured & finely shaped wood [not plastic!], more-adroitly applied and higher-cost finishes [engraving, not Parkerizing!]). Many of the early English hammer guns go well-beyond that mark and accordingly...they are almost in a class by themselves. As a practical matter, most aren't very utilitarian. They are all now...what(?) at least 100-years old, and many (if not most) employ the use of an archaic (and perhaps even demonic) invention, Damascus Steel, in their long and now-ancient barrels (Egads!). They're frankly...very slow to use (loading, cocking and firing take forever by modern standards) and they're also likely to be fragile and not really good for use in challenging weather or other unstable (changing, crowded, or desperate) conditions . And still... with all those very real "handicaps" (for lack of a better descriptor) I'm clearly drawn to them. They are the "Steam Punk" of the gun world (look the definition of that one up) and I think they are endlessly-cool and... even though I need one like a hole in my big (& mostly empty) head, I want another one to use on targets occasionally and perhaps...possibly (only in perfect weather and of-course with well-controlled field conditions) for hunting upland game.

I'm presently focused on back-action guns, though bar-action guns might offer some real advantages here (many more of them have survived, most are somewhat newer [i.e., later production], and many are simply better-made) and I've finally narrowed the field down to just a few alternatives. What I'm finding now is that the perceived-use limitations of some of the lighter, unchoked, and non-rebounding versions are not deterring me because... I like how they "look". Heavier guns (7lbs plus) and the more-normal (more available) bar-action and top-lever guns would make for far-better target guns (which is the more likely and ever more-practical use of such a firearm) but... they're just too-conventional somehow in my eyes. And while some truly-fine and well-known guns (some with very-familiar names in the gun-world) are presently available, I keep circling back to those more-obscure artifacts and it's purely because of that "visual interest" factor for me. It's now down to finding one that will fit me or that can be reasonably-altered to fit (being a southpaw limits my options even further). It's an odd way to buy a gun, I'll freely admit. First world problems, eh?

I think, circle back to your first paragraph and assume it will be an emotion purchase. There's nothing wrong with that, but visual appeal is probably in the eye of the beholder. Lol, maybe it's a good thing you folks now have a three day wait period, but you're fortunate to be stirred by a gun.

Lloyd, I think you defined the difference between a collector and a shooter/hunter. You can play both sides of the street of course, but I know a fair number of people that collect firearms just because they find the mechanisms fascinating and appreciate the engineering, or the craftsmanship, or whatever. Many rarely or never shoot. Just something they like to collect, like I like to pick up odd, not pretty, rocks.

I guess I'd be looking for a back action, island lock gun with rebounding hammers. Maybe a 16b. Or a Grant or Boss side lever, or... And I'd shoot them.

Chukarman: Thanks for that, I certainly do like 16s and I clearly like side-levers but...12s are far-easier to feed than 16s these days, and since sidelevers are fairly-uncommon they accordingly seem to be collecting something resembling a premium these days. No...it will be a 12 and for all the usual reasons, quite possibly a Jones underlever, and it will definitely be shot for targets and moreover...game. I'd also like to find out if non-rebounders actually do cock more easily (i.e. more quickly). Another old-gun learning experience (which is usually fun for me). If I really like it, I can always upgrade to a more-refined and possibly better version later.

Wild fowl hammer guns were being made into the 1930's. I have several. They offer fairly modern dimensions, steel barrels, built to handle 3" shells and proofed at 4 tons, weight 7.5-8.25 pounds which works well on clay targets. They tend to be barrel heavy which work well for me and run 30-32" with IM to Full chokes. If you come across one you will quickly realize that they are the same as a period pigeon guns, at 1/4 the price. Fit is very good but not finished to the same extent. I really enjoy mine and look forwards to taking them duck hunting next Fall. I even picked up a Lang hammer-less gun, central vision, 3" that started out as wild fowl gun. It shoots well and crushes clays. Sadly someone removed all but .010 chokes in it. Comes in at 8 pounds on the dot. Trying to figure out if I want to have it back bored .010 to give it more choke. Not enough wall thickness for briely's.

If it exists it would be nice to come across a ribless (I detest ribs), back action island lock with side pedal opening and steel barrels. Collectible or not I would use it.

Did Alex Martin ever build a hammergun? His other stuff had ribless options.

Well....I bit the bullet, so-to-speak, and finally bought another hammergun. Waiting on Kirby to ship it now and... it's truly steam-punk on steroids, a non-rebounding, side-lever Lang made in the middle 1870s. The photos are still on his webpage (if you're interested). Pedaled a nice M99 .250 Savage to do it. With the way things are going in Colorado (& elsewhere too) I figured that I'd better get the guns I'm curious about in-hand now, and not "later".

Lloyd,
Went over and took a peek.
I like it!!
Congrats.

Looks a nice early gun.

Shame you parted with that nice Savage but there are only so many guns you can shoot at the same time!

Ain't it the truth...

Lloyd, you’ve made your decision and it’s in line with what I would have recommended.

My thinking, and it’s what I try hard to follow, is that I need to love the gun first. And that is typically a combo of handling and appearance. Rarely does the maker’s name make much of a difference to me. A well made and beautiful gun doesn’t need a name to be a well made and beautiful gun.

These aren’t words of advice for collecting or making money. But when I follow it I’m sure happy with what’s in my safe.

+1

SRH

Well, Lloyd, Whittington, ‘22, seems to have lit the fire and now after what I confidently feel was a very enjoyable year of searching you’ve got your next play thing on the way. After taking a look, you’re in for great fun. Congratulations.

Thankyou Sir.

Yes, it been a long and tortuous road to get here. Not quite fire & floods (but darn close). I can already visualize the first game trail I'll be carrying it on, coming into that first "hot" corner with the gun up, the hammers fully-cocked and ready to go. The slanting sun will be shining, the leaves will be falling, and the pungent smell of autumn in the north woods will be filling my nose, and I'll be searching keenly, listening for that furtive "putt, putt" of an alarmed grouse before it launches...

When I was younger, I remember having much different fantasies....oh well, this will have to do for now.

Lloyd- what is the meaning of "steam punk" as you used it in your thread. Enjoy the new smokepole, Kirby Hoyt is the ONLY dealer I would trust. RWTF

Foxy: I first heard the expression used a year or two ago (it helps to have a teenager in the house). Loosely defined, it's another form of counter-culture behavior I suspect, with a focus on the elaborate (& sometimes odd) Victorian-era engineering of things used in the steam-driven society of that time (steam trains & boats, steam-driven manufacturing, etc.). The kids that practice it are focused on older (or very old) artifacts that have otherwise been discarded by modern society as being obsolete, but that were well-made then and that are still very-functional now. I suspect that it's a behavior that is mostly driven by economics (& a need to own something tangible), but there is an "art" to it as well. It's a blend of campy and cool I suppose. It's old typewriters, chemical cameras, mechanical watches, fountain pens, spats and cigarette-holders, all combined with bathtub gin and absinthe. I don't entirely understand parts of it, but some of it is fun (& mostly harmless).

Think "Art Deco" or "Biedermeier" furniture, acetylene miner's lamps and bamboo fly rods, or the "Deus ex Machina" (translated loosely into "God from the Machine") of really old motorcycles with stick (or "suicide") gear-shifters, or even mechanical brakes and standard transmissions in cars instead of modern automatic transmissions (or now, even "self-parking cars"). That's almost "Steam Punk" to me.

Circa 1866. The side-opening system is Lang's Patent No. 46. I've never seen another like it.



Not bad for 157 years old. Love those fences...



And here's the best part...cocking those non-rebounding hammers from half-cock is a piece of cake.

Can’t see photos Lloyd, can you try re-posting them?

Try again, I think I fixed it.

Congratulations on a great gun. What will you feed her?

2 1/2-inch stuff that is low & slow. I've got some old RST 12s kicking around here somewhere. I suppose I'll now have to find either more of that or start to reload again. Does anybody have 2 1/2-stuff back on the market yet? I looked at RST the other day and they were still out.

You'll probably need to go to the RST website on a regular basis. I bought a case of 16 gauge a month ago and I get the impression it goes out the door almost as fast as they list it available.

Does Polywad still make stuff?

I believe Polywad is out of business.

Lloyd,
I believe Kent still has their 2 1/2" 7/8 oz. Elite shells.
Karl

Karl: It sounds like I need to pay a visit to Kent's webpage. Thankyou for that.

Lloyd,
I've been shooting 7/8 oz. out of my 2 1/2" chambered gun with great success. They've spoiled me with their low recoil and ability to break targets, and fast becoming my Woodcock load of choice.
Karl

Wish they had some in Canada. I love that load

Took the gun to visit my old digs at MW Reynolds today. Mark went over it with his usual fine-toothed comb and pronounced it fit for service (the tubes are 26 thou at their thinnest point). He also suggested 7/8 ounce loads for targets, with perhaps 1-ounce for game. Moreover, he even had a tatty old hammergun case (just laying-around) that fit it perfectly (I guess it's a sign). I'd spoken earlier with the fellow that did most (if not all) of the fine gun service work for Mark when I was working there (Terry Nicholson) and he's agreed to bend it back 1/4-inch to neutral and add-in a skosh more drop at the heel. That should get me in the ballpark for a better fit (at least for me), so... It's coming together nicely now.



Oak & Leather always does good things for these old girls, eh(?) and this one fit like it had been made for it (it wasn't, of course, it's a hard-used old H&H hammergun case). I also have it on good-authority that those barrels look to be pretty close their original finish and that they are not Damascus but "best English laminated-steel", which makes sense (as I was struggling to discern a pattern on them). Also from discussions with my "resident authority", we were both surprised that these dolphin-style hammers are not "hooded" (a vestige left-over from primers & nipple days, which in 1866 would still be fairly common) making me wonder if they are original to the gun(?). Not that it would matter, as they match the gun very well and have nearly-perfect symmetry . There's always something more to do on these old artifacts, and it's very temping to "tart them up" a bit (adding leather pad was also discussed), but...I'll simply use a slip-on pad (for the added length), and then just clean up the case a little (sterilizing it first, as a moth flew out of it when we disturbed it at the shop... causing a mild stir), get a replacement strap made for the left side, and perhaps get the handle repaired (making it safe to use for carry), but... that's about it (I should have paid closer-attention to Mark Gruber's class on case refurbishment & repair at Whittington in late-April, darn-it).

This thing is ancient. Guns made just before it were either Lefaucheux actions, or pinfires, or both...

not being familiar with the action, is this a slide & drop gun? i have an 1875 dougall lockfast....and the 1860's were transition period from lefaucheux actions to stronger locking systems. from memory, crudgington & baker grouped four or five patents together as slide & drop patents.

certainly a handsome gun.

best regards,

tom

Tom: No, not slide & drop, just a cammed-lever on a single bite. You aren't kidding about it being transitional, this provisional patent (#1785) was evidently issued in 1867, almost a year after this gun was produced. It's marked as a separate Lang's patent number on the gun (#46) and is only mentioned on pages 126 & 127 in Crudgington & Baker's book. Any similar examples that I've been able to find online (or in this book) while being only a few serial numbers earlier from this unit...are very different. Anything much later seems to have a toplever so...probably not many examples ever made, nor are there many left. This design clearly wasn't all that successful for them.

Handsome is a good word for it though, thankyou (beauty of course being in the eye-of-the-beholder). It's visually interesting for me, at least, which is what drove this whole exercise. I shipped it off today, so any real test of its relative merits are still to come. Terry thinks he'll have it ready when he returns to Colorado next month.

an old friend, who enjoyed nice shotguns, fine watches and diamonds....told of a diamond trader of his acquaintance, who, when showing a prospective buyer his wares, would suggest a nicer diamond by saying _ "if you'd like something with a little more romance".

these fine old guns, in well kept condition, simply offer "a little more romance".

best regards,
tom

Tom: Well...who can't use a little more romance in their lives, eh? I just didn't realize that "romance" was what I was dealing with here. The other thought that, sadly, keeps going through my mind is what my paternal grandfather (& my namesake) would occasionally churn out... "There's no fool like an old fool".

FWIW: I've read more-deeply into Crudgington & Baker's book and learned a bit more about this action. T. Saville's patent number 1559 of 1864 seems to be origination of this particular system, with the authors speculating that Lang's then purchased said patent somewhere along the way, which might account their (Lang's) patent claim on the action of this gun. There was also talk about how much work was being performed in this period that converted pinfires to what became the now-standard centerfire system, so...a very "transitional" period indeed. The authors also allayed some of my fears by mentioning that they had actually used a gun with this type of action and were fairly pleased with it...