Has anyone here ever fireformed 9.3 X 74R brass into 3" .410 shells? If so, specifically, did the rim thickness cause an issue with chambering in a .410? Also, how much increase in case capacity would be expected over current 3" plastic .410 hulls?

I've found a little information about this on the 'net, but not much, mostly just that it can be done.

Stan,
If no one has done it, I expect they will, now that you have asked the question. The rim question should be simple enough to answer (someone try it) and if an issue, simple enough to address (a simple lath job). I use 444 Marlin cases to make 2 1/2" 410 cases , but the 444 case is simi-rimmed rather than rimmed. As far as case capacity is concerned, someone will have to fireform some cases and measure them, fireforming will increase the diameter but will make them even shorter (they are not quite 3")
Mike.

You may have looked at this, but MagTech makes 2-1/2" cases that they claim are for 2-3/4" chcambers. Not sure what that means but I have had some and they seem to be serviceable. As with all the brass shells, they have a larger internal volume than a standard hull and require larger wads.

I have for a while purchased Magtech shells from thegunworks.com. They always seemed to have the best stock and best prices for them.
Their name is, I believe, The Muzzleloader Emporium. The gentleman who started and ran it passed away a couple of years ago but his wife and staff are continuing the business.
I just checked and they have MagTech 410 in stock for $48/box. That is higher than the other gauges but so is everything else .410.

Making 3" from a rifle cartridge is do-able, but for proof of concept it would be easier to buy a box and some wads and try them. They carry a lot of wads, and if they don't have them TOTW has everything from .410 to .450 in stock. (Circle Fly) The recommendation for this hull is .430 for the internal wads and .45o for overshot. With cut wads, the higher internal volume and no an overshot wad right at the mouth, you should easily get a 3" load in the shorter shell. If they work out, a longer rifle conversion could be made, but you can try it without much work. One interesting comment on the Magtech 410 is that, if memory serves, there is no 2 thickness base on them. Due to small diameter, I am remembering that the base is all one level at full thickness. This is a big deal because it negates the objection most people have about the wad encroaching on the flashhole and should be stronger due to the thicker head. I will look to see if I have any of these left to check this.

I just checked and found 2 boxes I have for some "experiments" I have been planning. The measurements I took show an OD at the mouth of .460, an ID based on this and case wall thickness of .446, an OAL of 2.336 and an inside depth of 2.225. The last two numbers would indicate a head thickness of .111, which should indicate a relatively robust head design. I will say that from my experience forming 577 Snider cases, the Magtech cases are rather hard and need to be annealed to reform to any extent. That is probably a plus if you simply glue in wads, since they tend to resist expansion with mild loads and don't change much with cycling.

One other relevent point is that they are made to accept large pistol primers. The primer pockets can be a little tight and should be prepped anyway, so I always use a large rifle pocket reamer instead of a pistol version. If you do this, you can use either large rifle or pistol primers. I tend to always go with the large rifle because I use them with smokeless powder and the ignition may be a little better.

Have you looked at or talked to the people at Rocky Mount. They list 3” .410 shells. I’d check their internal volume as a starting point. See what their largest shot payload they recommend. I know you are looking for that 3/4 to 7/8 ounce .410 payload. In the end I’d rather have a higher velocity 5/8 or 11/16 ounce, tighter pattern load, than a heavier, slower load. Trade off in all things.

Rocky Mountain is the only place I am aware of that has .410 brass longer than 3". I tend to buy all the brass I intend to use from RCC because it seems to me to be the best out there, and they make it for some really odd gauges. Oddly, they don't make it in 3".

The reason I mentioned MagTech is that it is far and away the cheapest of all the brass hulls, and in .410 it has just as robust head as the other makers, so I would have no qualms about using it in a shotgun. For that reason I would recommend trying the Magtech to experiment with wads etc.

Of course the simple thing would be to take a few 9.3x74R shells, anneal the front half of the cartridge, prime them and charge with a normal 410 load topped with a case full of cream of wheat and shoot them.
The slightly smaller cartridge rim shouldn't be a problem; the potential one is that the rim is a little thinner too, and if the chamber is too deep or the firing pin worn there could be weak ignition or misfires. Simply prime a cartridge case and fire it off empty. If there is no problem with a few of these firing and extracting, then anneal, fireform and have fun. I have never measured a 3" 410 case so don't know if they are actually 3" or not, but the .06" difference with the brass should be made up by the internal volume. You can gain something by using a glued in overshot wad, but that can be done with a 3" 410 too. Several people have the 9.3 cartridges in stock right now for a little over $1/round.

Stan, I have always loaded 2 1/2" shells with a much larger shot load than 1/2 ounce. I have my specs posted in my load book, specs that exceed NSSA maximums by quite a bit. I use old style AA hulls and sometimes green ribbed Remingtons that have been fired at least two times to increase capacity. I use wads that intrude the least in the shell. I like the orange PC or Remington wads. The point is that I could do the same with 3" shells now that I have a MEC 600 Jr set up to load them. The idea that comes to mind is to use a robust .410 gun and cut out the chamber to 3 1/4" or longer as long as the wall thickness at the forcing cone is sufficient. I have some Briley tubes that may have long forcing cones suitable to bore out to a longer chamber dimension. My point is "Don't stop at 3" chambers. Go for the gold." There must be someone who has a 3 1/4" or 3 1/2" case that fits in a .410 chamber. Don't believe the Old Wive's Tale that long shot columns won't pattern well. You have to try it to know the truth. What is your recommendation for a strong, inexpensive gun to test our theories? How about a Savage-Fox double? Your friend, Bill Murphy

303 British cases make very cood .410 cases, minimal work, except the primer

I am pleasantly surprised at all the replies to my question. I will attempt to address them all in order.

I have now read, and been informed by p.m., that the cases I mentioned will have to have the case rims thinned by about .005". A "simple lathe job" is not simple if you don't have a lathe. I hope to avoid that, but may not be able to.

These are the cheapest cases I have found, and as I understand it come with the front half of the case already annealed and ready for fireforming. https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/76364

I really don't think I want, or need, all brass cases longer than 3". Though no one has come up with an actual comparison of case capacity between current plastic 3" cases and these 9.3 X 74R brass cases I cannot help but believe it will be at least 5% increased case capacity, maybe more. That will do what I want to do (though I may someday get greedy and go for the gold, as my friend Bill suggests).

And, as Bill mentions once again, I have absolutely proven that very long shot columns can pattern extremely well. And, before someone points out the obvious that patterns are two dimensional and don't take into consideration the longer shot string, I use them on doves and they are deadly. Straightaway shots don't prove much actually, in regards to shot string length, but crossers do.

Thanks to all for the excellent replies and information.

The simple thing is buy a bag of cases and stick one in the gun.

Not wanting to start a squabble, but I looked at a couple of sources and both listed the dimensions of the 410 as larger than the 9.3 at every important dimension. The 410 is shown as .470 base, .535 rim. .060 rim thickness and 3 inch length. The 9.3x74R is shown as .469 base, .525 rim, .055 rim thickness and 2.94 inch length. The rifle rim is about .01 smaller than the 410 and .005 thinner. The base is .001 less. There should be no case work left except forming. I also found a quote of 82.3 grains of water for the 9.3 capacity but this is meaningless unless you know the fill point quoted. Add to that the fact that the case volume will go up a lot after forming and get a little longer to near the 3" mark.

I am making a rough guess that the 410 cas has an ID close to .410. Measuring a wad should give this number(I don't have any).

The 9.3 is .469 base and probably has around .015 walls for most of it's length. Net ID would be roughly .440. Also close to what I measured on the Magtech. 9.3 is very slightly shorter, but basewad in 410 likely cancels this out. From this, the volume difference should be right at 15% more than the 410, according to my rough calcs. If you really want to stretch it, use punched wads and an overshot wad glued in and you can really get more capacity. The overshot you will use will give you quite a boost. Given the fact that the 410 is star crimped and the brass case can be fully loaded, I suspect the difference will be closer to 25%. Or, as we say, a 28 gauge load. (Most 28 gauges weigh less than the same 410).

The big unknown is the pressure. That's a small bore and the guns run at pressures above most shotguns. Start raising shot charges by big jumps and trying to keep velocity reasonable could put you into rifle pressures.

One hundred and twenty years ago, a .40-85 primed empty was the answer --

I agree shot string does not mean longer will not pattern well on a plate and kill Dove just fine, but I do not like slow loads given a choice. I worry more about pressures. SAAMI .410 3" max. is 13,500. Based on Winchester Super X HS 3/4 ounce loads pressures run 13,100-13,500 PSI with velocity of 1100 FPS. Same hull with 11/16 ounces shot can not reach 1200 FPS without pressures reaching near max as well. You can drive 5/8 ounce shot slightly above 1250 FPS at slightly under max pressures but that load is lighter than you want.

Then the question is what will a larger volume hull give you? More room for sure, but is that going to be enough? You may need a slightly wider wad to seal the hull so you do not get blow-by. So no PC orange as they are the smallest diameter, followed by Remington, Federal and then old AA and new HSAA. I would start with the HSAA. Do not know off hand about some of the Euro wads, but in general they do run wider to seal straight wall hulls better. Hard enough shot should be OK without a full shot cup to protect it. You might get 3/4 plus, maybe 13/16 ounce to fit. But can you get velocity and keep pressures in line? After that how do they pattern?

Only way to know is load some and have them tested for pressure and velocity. It will need to be 300MP. I have found LilGun, 410 and 296/H110 loads run higher pressures than 300MP, by a lot. I do not know the pressure curve and how quickly it climbs. But you can load 3" Remington hulls with 11/16 to 1200 fps at 9000PSI with 300MP, Lil Gun will be 1175/13,500 range, 296 will 1135/12,800. So that should give you a starting powder and range of loads to work with. You could also look at 4227, 2400, Herco, Unique or 452AA none of which would be my first choice for various reasons.

The other question is what will be the difference in pressures between a brass hull and a plastic hull? Brass will not flex as much so will that increase pressures? Again the only way to know is load and test some. Also what type primers will you be shooting? That will alter pressures a lot. Do you plan on using a large rifle primer? I did read one report about wad sizes and cards to compensate for wad lack of good seal. "Whenever assembling metallic .410s with plastic shotcups an over-powder card MUST be used. This is necessary because the plastic shot cup diameter is too small to seal the interior case wall, such that omitting the over-powder card results in powder leaking past the wad, causing “bloopers.” " Again start with HSAA and you might not need a over the powder card.

All very good points, AGS and Jon. Thanks much for sharing your thoughts on this. Any untested loads would definitely be sent to Armbrust for pressure and velocity testing. Jon, you and I both have lots of experience using .410s in the field, and I respect your opinions on this. I would, however, prefer to keep the velocities at 1200 fps or less. Why? Because I have found that most of my S X Ss are regulated with heavy-for-gauge payloads at lower velocities. I have seen some drastic crossfiring of S X Ss when they are fed lighter payloads at higher velocities.

I will definitely save your loading suggestions if I decide to chase this rabbit. I may decide to be satisfied with my .73 ounce load of nickel plated 8s at 1175 fps. It has really been shown to be a clean killer for me. TBH, getting the rims cut down on a lathe and opening the primer pockets on 100 cases does not sound very appealing to me.

Thanks.

Stan, I wonder if a lighter, or heavier load will both keep convergence at the same speed? Is it the speed or weight of payload that causes the issue, or a combination? It might be fine with a lighter load, going fast, or a heavier load, going slower. You might have discovered slow and heavy is the same as lighter and fast. More likely they used 1/2 ounce loads to set convergence than the harder to find 3/4 ounce loads. If you would just learn how to pump one of my 42 pigeon grades convergence would not be a problem. But with doubles you do have it working, your sweet spot, stay there. Your seems to be about 1200 fps.

Yes, we both enjoy using a .410 for Dove. It is also my default Sporting Clays gun which gives me a lot more shooting chances than just Dove. For me I don’t think an extra 1/16 ounce shot will gain me more than 3-5 yards, if that. But I also am trying to stretch it out to begin with. You know I am happy using a full choked .410, out to a measured 30-33 yards for Dove. Sporting Clays you can take longer shots because there is no worry about not cleanly killing the bird. All hits, that make a chip or better are scored the same.

Knowing your exact distance is key. I’ve seen a lot of shooters, who pride themselves with their 50-60 yard shots, which measure 40 yards at most. Worse are those who measure to where the Dove is recovered, not where it was shot. The real math gets bigger the longer the shot. If I can keep leads in the 5-6’ range I can do well, stretch them out just a couple more feet and I don’t. The .410 patterns just whimpers out for hunting.

I agree this is an interesting problem. Guess first step is fire forming a bunch of shells. Be aware that if only the upper part is annealed the lower half will not fire form well. So you might end up with a bit of internal taper which will create a wad sealing issue. Might be inconsequential as the wad sealing in the taper should continue to seal as the shell and bore gets larger. It might even make all wads usable but I would stick to the larger diameter wads. You testing will tell you in that if the wads seals well, there will be little variance in speed and pressure because you have no blow-by. If you do get blow-by, a card over the powder may be needed under the wad.

Will Armbrust test brass loads? Precision no longer accepts brass loads. Gil

Stan,
You would be surprised how much you can do with a drill press or even a 1/2" "drill motor" in a vise and a file until you get a lathe. A lathe is a necessity of life, even if you don't hand load. Anyway, with only .005" difference, manufacturing tolerances in the rims vs. the chamber/headspace may allow 9.3 cases to fit (cases have to be the same or smaller and the chamber has to be the same or larger than the listed standards).
Mike

Maybe the solution is to install a cup into the shot load at the top of the shell with the open end in the shell to contain more shot. Don't ask me how to keep the shot from spilling out as you install the cup. Possibly slotting the cup, installing shot through the slot, then pushing the cup into the shell with the slot inside the shell? This method would eliminate the use of a different case. Jon's suggestion to try Unique, Herco, or AA452 is a bit confusing since all are way faster burning than the 410 powders and would raise pressures into the stratosphere with a 3/4 ounce load or heavier.

You can use those powders to fireform. There also are loads for shot using them. I think 300MP is a much better powder to start off with.

Might be sort of fun to try 40-50 grains of Swiss 3fg. The larger volume would be especially useful for black powder loads.

I use 300MP, Win 296 (H110?) in .410 TSS loads. Lead/TSS load recipes aren't interchangeable. An equal weight of TSS is almost half the stack height of lead due to density disparity, Gil

KYjon, what are the loads for shot for .410 with Unique, 452, and Herco, and where are they published? I repeat, they are way too fast for .410 loads and the pressures are way too high. Educate me on fireforming. I think that fireforming usually involves a projectile.

You can fireform cases with shotgun pressures, too. I learned this while reading an article about using the 9.3 X 74R cases for a .410. The author gave the load specs to do so.

The source says that 8 grs. Herco and a full case of Cream of Wheat supposedly will do the trick.

If only I could get ahold of one of these to try in a gun before buying 50. https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/76364

quite a few varieties of 9.3x74r brass available from Dave Gullo (aka Buffalo Arms).
https://www.buffaloarms.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=9.3x74r

Looks like you can even buy a single case for $2.79 (Norma), but there are 3-4 other makers in different quantities.

.405 Winchester looks ballpark close, but too short. The 9.3/.410 is interesting. I imagine it would be at least a reasonable grouse gun.

Hey Stan,
In case you were curious, I measured some new Nosler brass, rim diameter .524", rim thickness .054", head diameter .464", length 2.93".

I had a similar thought as what you're thinking, but other little projects, happen. If you aren't in a rush, monitor the Nosler website, it seems they just had a sale that puts the cost of their brass, at about what you're considering with the Privi brand. I never loaded any, but I recall figuring out that a 41 mag seating die would put enough of a crimp to hold an overshot card. I was going to try filling the bullet seating cup with epoxy, so it would be more or less flat.

I may have read it wrong, but you mentioned opening up the primer pockets? Why not just use large rifle primers? Anyway, best of luck with the project.

Thanks, Craig. I read that even if you do use LR Primers you need to "clean up" the pockets on this brass. Having never seen it in hand I cannot say for sure. Others advocated opening the pockets enough for shotgun primers. Lots of conjecture and "what ifs". And, Gil made a good point earlier. It may not be possible to get "all brass" shotshells pressure tested. I'll send an email to Armbrust to see.

Thanks for the info, and thoughts.

Stan, realizing that you have a streak of McGyver/DIY, Rocky Mountain Cartridge sells minimum orders of 20 brass shells ranging in .25" increases of length, 2" to 3" from $85 to $94. They have machined primer pockets for shotgun primers. They are precision made, one at a time, to .410 specs. Gil

I assumed the powders mentioned by KYjon were to be loaded with a shot load. They would be dangerous with a shot load, but probably not dangerous with a load of Cream of Wheat.

I'm afraid I also have a tetch of frugality in me, that makes me want to do "unnecessary things" on the cheap. If I go down this rabbit hole I'm going to want to go for having at least 100 cases to load. That's the reasoning behind me looking so hard at the Prvi brand ........... low price. I don't mind spending for the best brass (Lapua, IMO) for some of my rifles, but for a shotgun I figure cheap brass should do. My concern about other brands is that the rim thicknesses on all of them may not be the same, and one might work without thinning whereas another may not.

I have contacted PPU (Prvi USA) about sending me one case to try. They may not, but I figure it's worth a try.

Thanks, Gil.

Gil,
I believe the RMC cases will be the full thickness of a paper shell. I know that is the case for their 10 gauge brass, which I bought years ago. Undoubtedly, they can make them thinner, but I think that would be a custom job. Nicely, they will put whatever you want on the headstamp.

If Stan wants a single case, he can buy a Norma case from Buffalo Arms. There won't be much variation from on maker to another.

Stan, you sure your farm does not need a bag of brass spacers? Let Joe pay for this. Tell him Corn Pop said so.

If I had to fire from a lot of brass I would like to have a gun built as stout as possible. Perhaps one of the .303 rifles converted to .410. Ease of loading and strong extractor, plus it was designed for a real rifle cartridge. Or even one of the Marlin bolt action .410. Don’t know if you might have extraction issues but would not like to damage my regular .410.

My brass hulls from RMC measure .025" wall thickness. Unfired Cheddies, .035. Below are some of my fired hulls ready for tumbling in walnut hull media. There is a slight difference in diameter full length. Towards the head, the last .4" is about .0005' larger in OD because of the gun's chamber's form--a Yildiz TK36 single shot .410. I shoot a mix of plastic and brass hulls depending on whatever I grab out of my pocket. Patterning shows an increase of holes inside the 10" ring at 40 yards with the brass compared to plastic, all other things equal. Maybe just anecdotal but my barrel man has noticed in the drinking and betting turkey shoots into paper, he has noticed that a chamber length matching the open hull length of the standard shell used at shoots performs better than those overly long or shorter than the beginning of the forcing cone. He believes an exact match gives a smoother, non-disruptive transition from chamber to forcing cones. I've been using this brass for 8 wild turkey seasons. The RMC reloading kit is to the right of the shells. Top to bottom, deprimer, primer, primer seating block, deprimer block and a collar that fits over the hull for ease of powder and shot pour. I seal the shot behind an OSC Duco cemented into the hull. Gil

What about this?

liverwort,
303 would work ok for 2 1/2" shells, but they are looking for 3".
Mike

I just measured a 10 gauge to see how it compares. It is 0.033" thick, and the 2 7/8" case weights 848 gr. When I bought them, RMC told me they made them to paper hull specs so that paper hull reloading components could be used. They are strong enough not to deform if I step on one on hard ground.

Your reloading tools are considerably more refined than my self-made tools, but reloading was pretty simple with blackpowder. I killed Canadas, turkeys, and pheasants with that gun, though it was darn heavy at ~10 lbs.

https://www.survivalistboards.com/threads/loading-410-metallics.962928/

This is the best write up I have read on this subject. It took me a couple days to recall where I had seen it. I book marked it for future possible use. Deals with fire forming and some basic loads. Also mentions how to get around the wad not sealing well to prevent powder gas blow by. As always read, think about things and proceed with reasonable caution. Remember what Abe Lincoln said, "if it is on the internet you know you can trust it".

Thanks, Jon. Some good info there, tho' he does not mention having to thin case rims, with the rifle brass.


Yep. Sounds like a job for a Baikal. You can't hurt those things.


That is very interesting. I have wondered about that for much of my shotgunning life, but never heard an informed opinion on it. Those card shooters have forgotten more about making even, tight patterns than most of us will ever know.

One should fire form the brass to the gun it will eventually shoot. Otherwise, one may end up with brass that won't chamber in the intended gun. I did a lot of fire forming 5.56 brass to shoot 7 mm rounds out of a Thompson Contender in IHMSA competition. I'd be surprised if chamber pressures were higher fire forming than when pushing a 7 mm 162 gr boattailed Sierra downrange. Stan, you are welcome to use my Baikal single shot if you want to go that route. Gil

I can see why you would need to firearm in the intended gun, same as having to resize plastic shell heads that may have been fired in a gun with a bigger chamber. I was overlooking the obvious.

IR, I can't imagine 7 grs. of Herco behind a case of Cream Of Wheat producing damaging pressures.

Stan

Can you tell us the source that says you have to trim the case rim thickness? All the sources I have found show that the 9.3 round is a tiny bit smaller in both diameter and thickness than the 410 and the base is nearly the same diameter. Also, the comments I made about primer posckets had to do with converting MagTech particularly to LR from SR. Using 9.3 cases manufactured with LR primers should require nothing. Simply get a case and see if it fits and pop a primer. I would do it for you but I sold all my cases with my last 9.3 Ruger. I did at one time load some 45/120 cases with shot for a Ruger No.3 I rechambered to that caliber. The idea was survival loads with a large bore. They shot surprisingly well with an open pattern of course, and I shot a couple of doves as a proof of concept. Worked like a charm with standard 410 loads.

I would post a request in the Double or single shot rifle area and ask if someone can send you a case. A lot of people here own 9.3's I suspect. Better yet simply ask someone to insert a 9.3 case in a 410 and see if it fits and cycles.

In all these posts, I haven' seen any comment that anyone has tried this. I think the solution is too simple to worry about. Put Unique, Herco or some such load in a case, fill it with cream of wheat, plug it with a bar if soap and fire form it.

For anyone living below 39°43′20″ N, I find the use of Cream of Wheat abhorrent for fire forming. Any self respecting resident living below 39°43′20″ N should use grits or corn meal (both dry, not wet) instead of the finely ground paste additive known as Cream of Wheat. Gil

Preach on brother, while I tap my foot.

I have used both grits and corn meal, pretty much because we didn't have that other stuff on hand. Now I pretty much always use worn polishing media, because it is handy and already paid for.
Stan, I replied to your answer to my PM but don't know if I sent it to you, can you check?
Mike

Received an email today from Barb Miller, Tom Armbrust's associate, that he will indeed test all-brass shotshells. One more small hurdle cleared.

Was blessed yesterday to receive a box of fired 9.3 X 74R brass in the mail, from a generous member here. Lo, and behold, they chambered in two of my .410 doubles! All the concern about thinning the rims were for naught. Onward we go. Next step, fireforming. I assume I should I use an OS card between the powder and grits?

I've just pointed the barrel up, trying not to spill any. At lower pressures, you may never have to worry about sizing. It may be possible to to just use a universal expander to get the mouth where you want it, and fire form with range loads? I'd maybe be mindful of splitting necks on the way up, good news on the project.

I suggest annealing the cases first.

A small wad of crumpled toilet paper should suffice between the powder and the grits.

What Parabola said, plus another 1/4 sheet of TP on top of the grits, so you don't have to sweep them up.
Mike

In fire forming I used a top layer of wax. It comes in sheets that are about 2mm thick. Just press the loaded shell into the wax and the case cut a perfect plug. It only needs to keep the contents in place.

I'm thinking I'll go to the river, park my boat, and shoot the grits over the river. I'd rather fish eat the swelled up grits than ants. I can see it now .....

I'm doing this 48 times. During this time a game warden pulls up. What are you shooting? Grits. Blank expression on GW's face. What? Yeah, shooting grits out of rifle cases to make them into shotgun cases. Silence. Is this how you bait up your carp hole? Blank expression on MY face.

Why not shoot grits from a .410? They shot wheat from a cannon...

I must really be behind the times. I thought Cheerios were the preferred substitute for lead...Geo

Not behind, George, ahead. Grits are way older than Cheerios. 😁

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/76364

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sh...sh-to-410-shotshell/page3&highlight=

Stan,
How about an update on your project? Turkey season is on top of us.
Mike

Gladly, Mike, but not much to report. Project temporarily on hold, as tractors are rolling. Drier weather has abounded here in the past few weeks and we're wide open preparing fields for spring planting. Depressed cotton prices has caused me to make the decision not to plant an acre of the stuff but to increase corn and peanut acreages. Thus, we're full bore bottom plowing for peanuts and "burning down" corn fields. Seeing lots of turkeys in the fields, daily.

Next step will be fire forming the brass. Supposed to rain here this Saturday and Sunday, and I'd rather have a dry afternoon to do that. Pictures will accompany my next update.

Thanks for checking on me .......... SRH

Stan,
OK, I understand. You can't control the weather; you have to work with it. At least ya'll can still really farm. Around here most people have to farm pine trees and work in the auto plant/Walmart to make ends meet, although a few grow cattle. I predict Doves in you near future. It sounds like you need a good tractor gun. I suggest a combo gun, you never know when a coyote will come.
Mike

Got one. It's a Montgomery Ward's (Stevens) 32" barreled 12 gauge, choked fuller and fuller. I don't allow coyote shooting on my land, Mike. We are overrun with deer, which eat our crops very badly, costing us mucho dinero. Coyotes eat deer, so coyotes are my allies here. Deer are my enemy ............ and wild hogs, of course. But, deer cost me more money than the hogs.

As for dove, buddy Dale called to tell me that last week a swallow tailed kite raided a dove nest in a tall pine in his yard and flew off with a featherless dove hatchling dangling by the leg from the kite's beak. An adult dove returned to the nest. Gil

Stan,
If there is an American Legion, DAV, VFW, Marine Corps League, etc in your area, one or more of these could organize special assisted disabled veterans hunts or special youth hunts, for Deer during the season or Hogs during the off season. This would help you with your problem and since these organizations are usually classified as 501.c.3 or similar, any cost to you, including the fair market value of the use of your land could be accounted for on your taxes. They can insure appropriate assistance for the disabled veteran hunters and parental supervision for the youth hunters. They can also prepare "hold harmless agreements" agreeable to your insurance company to protect your and their interest. If desired, you, the organization, an outside agency or individual could advertise processing services or provide concessions, such as breakfast and/or lunch items as well as portable toilets and waste removal services. If you do or allow something like this I suspect you would receive positive "feedback" from the community.
Mike

Thanks for that information, Mike.