Interesting French O/U 16 gauge. Of additional note, the receiver indicates the shotgun was made in St. Etienne, however it is also inscribed with "Avec Bascule importe d'Allegmangne" indicating that the gun's receiver was imported from Germany. No maker's mark are indicated on the gun from what I can see. Anyone have any ideas regarding the identity crisis that this 16 is having, or any other information?

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101540609

Here were my observations via PM.



"Acier Comprime" - compressed steel....means nothing an advertisement

"COA Canons" - this will be the barrel maker. I cannot identify "COA" as yet (if the letters are correct - they are stylized). I thought it might be a mark for Saint-Etienne barrel maker (Cannoniere) Chavot Armuriere - founded in 1924 by Jean Chavot - fourth generation still at it. I might write to try to confirm or will continue to search the internet.

"Choke" (word indistinct)" with "SMR" in the semi-circle. Usually the word "choke" is associated with "rectifie" which means nothing. The initials though will mean something. I'll search more. Need to confirm they are "SMR".

There is an inscription "Medaille d'or" (Gold Medal) on the barrel...obviously a prize won by the barrel maker at some world's fair. We should be able to turn this up.



The gun is advertised as having 2 3/4" chambers. If so they are lengthened. They originally are 65mm (2 1/2"). Chamber length in MM so after June 1912.

"17.4" = `16 bore

Proofed for PT powder (smokeless nitro - post 1900).

It is double proofed in Saint-Etienne.

"Fusil Fabrique a Saint-Etienne" - Gun made in Saint-Etienne



"Avec Bascule importe d'Allegmangne" - With Action imported from Germany



Can't help with the cocking rods unfortunately...not familiar enough with O/U. Again Raimey or Ted or wild cattle or Larry might recognize something.

It's got that little half pistol grip stock which is Saint-Etienne. The butt plate is very French.

The interesting thing for me is "Allemangne". It's not "Ouest Allemangne" (West Germany) or FRG (created in 1949)...it's just "Germany." so Post 1991? It looks a lot older than that. It may be just after WWII...and occupied Germany was still just "Germany." There was a Lyon regional country-side pursuits fair in 1949. Wonder if the Gold Medal came from there? Or it could be even earlier....1930's?

I was trying to understand when the first French O/U (superposé) was made. The Verney Caron site claims the first French mass produced O/U was the V-C "Sagittaire" which came out in the mid-1960's.

Could this gun could be an order from the 1930's, before France made O/U guns? Yet, the barrels were still made in France - not an easy thing to do. Confusing.

A la Libération, elle se retrouve confrontée à la concurrence déloyale des arsenaux de l'Etat, car le ministre Charles Tillon décide que les manufactures de Tulle, Châtellerault et Saint-Etienne doivent fabriquer des fusils de chasse. « En 1885, mon arrière-grand-père avait plaidé pour pouvoir redémarrer la fabrication de pièces d'armes militaires interdite par Napoléon III, ce qui a permis aux Belges et aux Anglais de prendre une avance considérable sur notre industrie nationale de l'armement », commente l'actuel président. L'accord passé en 1954 avec Franchi permet à son entreprise de fabriquer sous licence un fusil de chasse semi-automatique très léger conçu par l'armurier italien et lui donne sa dimension industrielle.

Douze ans plus tard, c'est le lancement du Sagittaire, produit emblématique de Verney-Carron, premier fusil superposé français fabriqué en grande série, qui s'octroie très vite une place de leader sur le marché.

When I get asked about a French O/U, it usually leads to just a few brands of guns, several versions of the Verney Carron Sagittaire, a Picard Fayolle Dactu , or a Petrek.

No clue on this one. The German connection is not something I’ve seen before.

I would lean more toward pre WWII, with the double proof. The short chambers on an O/U give me that thought as well.

I can’t add much more than that.

Best,
Ted

I've done some looking and I must say the curiosity quotient is pegging. I think this barrel maker mark will be key. I sent an email to Chavot. I'll try to post on a French site again.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb...true#Post285169


I'll have to do some diggin' but it might be a Krieghoff variant?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

While it might be that Verney-Carron made the first truly mass produced OU's in France, the Petriks were made during the between the wars period.

The receiver is interesting. While the exterior looks something like a Merkel, the interior photos verify that it's a totally different bolting system. Nothing like the Kersten.

Gene, my memory isn't 100% on this, but digging way back, I seem to recall that "choke" on a barrel (minus rectifie) indicated full choke.

Larry,
Beginning around the year 2000, the Bruchet’s built new Petrks. They had repaired, rebarreled, and restocked them for many years prior.

Toward the end of production, they were building an O/U that was advertised as a “Blitz” action gun. I only saw pictures, but, it was nowhere near as svelte as a Petrik.

http://www.fusildarne.com/models-gun-rifle-juxtaposed-express?model=4-fusil-superpose

Best,
Ted

Thanks, Ted. I didn't realize that. I have a Darne brochure from a gun shop in Rouen, which I must have picked up in 1977 when I was there with a group of American college students. In addition to the traditional Darne sxs, the brochure shows 3 different OU models which, from the brochure, Darne claims to be making. Other than that very typical small round knob French grip, they look to be pretty much standard top break OU's. And that's how the brochure describes them. I don't recall actually seeing any of those Darne OU's in the shop in question. But I was probably focused on the sxs, and may have missed them.

I am still diggin' but does anyone remember that odd Krieghoff O/U(odd bird0 that was for-sale some years back? I have perused thru what I can find of Emil Flues and for the life of me I cannot find an example that has those teats / protrusions on the standing breech.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Larry,
I’m sure I have the same brochure.

I believe those O/Us were never hot sellers (I imported exactly one, a 12 with a straight stock and double triggers, no ejectors) and I would bet the actions and barrels were imported from Japan, and finished in France. They look exactly like a Winchester 101.

Best,
Ted

Larry, I think you're thinking about the left mark below which has choke" combined with "non pour la balle." But it doesn't mark the level of choke. The O/U I'm pretty sure has "Choke Rectife"....and initials. We've seen initials with "Choke Rectifie" before... Just can't identify them yet. I'm going to try to post the barrel maker on Passion La Chasse.

I do believe that the tube maker can be sorted but what puzzles me is what type action was sourced from Germany & by whom,

>>Avec Bascule importe d'Allegmangne<<??

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The stamp “P choke” indicates full choke on many French guns. That said, I’ve never seen it on a Darne. The not for ball mark doesn’t really tell you the amount of choke, just that it was tight enough that they didn’t want you using pumpkin ball slugs in it.
Most Darnes are not marked with actual choke markings, unless they were imported, to be sold, here. I’ve seen more than one that had “MOD and FULL” beaten into the flats, obviously not factory or proof house work, that had chokes that were not mod and full.
My V19 has mod and full on the box it came in, serial numbered to the gun. The gun isn’t mod and full. Same with my Italian Richland, although the guy who wrote on the box got one of the two chokes right.

Best,
Ted

I picked up the gun today. The two cylindrical rods coming out from the receiver are not cocking rods as I previously thought. They are actually a locking mechanism connected to the opening lever. It also appears to have ejectors. I do not have any 16 gauge snap caps to test them, so to be 100% on that I'll need to fire it soon. They are spring-loaded however.

Interesting.

Agree, Gene, that if it's choke rectifie, that's a different story. And meaningless as far as telling us the degree of choke. Ted's reference to "P choke" would likely be "plein choke" or full. Can't recall ever having seen that.

Larry,
This Charlin is marked with what chokes it left the proof house with.

Best,
Ted

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...=100966989#md-8

Pretty cool Ted...I've never seen that on a French gun...full choke left barrel, 1/2 choke right barrel. Odd. 6.5 cm chambers...indicating it was made before June 1912. Do you have an idea of Charlin serial numbers - 23644 is high?

Now....about those pigeons???

37223 with 65mm chambers with chokes for the barrels and two birds....post June 1912 but post-WWI?


12720 with 1.5 cm chambers, post 1900 but pre Jun 1912, chokes indicated on the barrels, with two rabbits?


The choke markings has to be something unique to Charlin. Interesting.

Hirondelle. Not pigeons. Swallows. They refer to grades in Charlin guns, as do the running bunnies. But, from what I can tell, graded Charlins were always built to order, and the engraving could be up or down grade.
I have a copy of a page listing the Charlin grades, somewhere in the cloud, and I’ll see if I can find it. But, that information on Charlins is less useful than on Darne guns, where the grading was more structured.

Best,
Ted

Found it:



Regarding the choke markings-it is not exclusive to Charlins.

Best,
Ted

Better picture of the initials...

Assuming the CMR under "Choke rectifié" has something to do with the maker, according to https://www.passionlachasse.com/t28729-identification-fusil-darne-cal-12#817725


More Frenchies with CMR on the barrels:
https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=469074

https://www.passionlachasse.com/t35447-fusil-de-chasse-francisque-darne

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=https://popgun.ru/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D538767&prev=search&pto=aue

Markus

That's interesting peevedoff... So perhaps J.B. or J.P. or J.R. (I can't read the second initial) made the barrels and Champaley, Meiller et Riou did the boring/choking?

Re: the "Canon J?" chicken scratch it is somewhat similar to this
https://www.jpgbox.com/page/52364_600x400/
from https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=484199&page=all
which should relate to Jean Breuil.

Markus

New photos better than the old....the "Canon JB" is indeed Jean Breuil.


Here is another example:


The question I have though, since no French gunmaker that we know of was making superpose guns in the 20's and 30's, that had to be a special or one-off by Breuil. Or are we missing something?

What is that COA or OOA or CCA business?

I forgot but we discussed CMR once before:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=518349&page=3

Gene,
Larry already pointed out the Petrik O/U was produced prior to WWII. They were a well built O/U, the prototype for the Remington 32 and the later Valmet and Krieghoff.

They are very highly regarded in France, and by French gunmakers.

Best,
Ted

Ah....well...it shows my total lack of knowledge about the Petrick.... I need to learn more from you guys and read better. Many thanks Ted and Larry.

Could the "Hubertus Suhl" model by RPF be this gun perhaps?

https://image.ibb.co/gAAg6x/Screen_Shot_2018_04_25_at_8_01_43_AM.png

Merkel appears to have held a 1933 French patent for an O/U bolting system similar to the GI Breuil.

https://ie.espacenet.com/publicationDeta...p;locale=en_IE#

William Middleditch Scott patented the SxS principle in British patent 2052/1874.

Markus

Markus,

That is it. You hit the nail on the head. Thank you for your research on this. Comparing the drawings on page three of the Merkel Patent you found, it is fairly easy to see.

Looks very similar to Beretta trunnions.

Best,
Ted

Wee wee...wee wee

That was my observation after seeing you're observation you Alabama skallywAg....

There's more to life than just copy and pasting mAtey...