Filling out the Reilly SN extant gun chart, came across this 8 bore Reilly underlever hammer gun, SN 23143 (which would date to Spring 1881. Those case colors can't be original can they?

https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/shotguns/reilly-em/hammer/08-gauge/181117162138005

Hard to say looking at it on the iPhone. Possibly, but I would presume they have been “redone” sometime during its recent past. Unless the seller has proof otherwise. Barrels look rebrowned. And the underllever reblued. But the action pins lack niter bluing, so it wasn’t totally redone. Nor the screws. Obviously the gun has been shot often since refreshing.

Original IMHO

I am fascinated by English case color, but I am definitely not an expert.

Hard for me to understand how this gun could have had enough use to wear the under lever checkering to that extent, and still have that much remaining original case color, though.

Not original. Has that typical frosted look of a re-colored frame.
JR

If I were interested in purchasing a gun like this, I might be willing to look beyond the case colors in making my decision. By "beyond", I mean general condition and price.

Very much doubt it .Looks like cheap do up job .

Crap job on the case color,but those fences look very interesting. Speaks to the wide variety of venders Reilly used.

I'd like to know how the two above posters determined it's a crap job...

Case colors and re-blacking looks fine to me.

The screw holding the under leaver is not indexed...The lock pins could never have retained that high a polish for 100 plus years.

Nice gun does it make a difference if it's been restored ?
The breach face and bore diameter/condition would be a bigger worry to me.

If I wanted it and it was priced fairly I'd buy it.

Definitely not original, barrels have been redone but look good. I have a Reilly 8 gauge with articulated firing pins. Neat guns!

Well at least one of the above posters has spent a lifetime in the UK trade. He may have a clue.

Just a few of the things that catch my eye, CC on top of pitting, wrong finish on the under lever and fore end iron, fore end iron looks very worn most likely from pitting, the position of the under lever is too far to the right and likely has been re-joined, damascus finish is all wrong for a British gun and is either a copper wash or needs much more build up of the brown. My guess is that in hand you will see many more issues.


Does it makes a difference if it has been restored? Why yes it does. It helps to know what you are buying when you try to establish a value. Restored guns are fine if the work is done correctly but the market values them quite differently than original condition guns.

That's not quite fair. Most of us have a clue but lack the experience for insight.
We've looked at hundreds of guns through the years and have seen case
coloring from the sublime to the ridiculous and can remember what they looked like.
The secound picture down tells it all. The colors are bunched in the middle of the action,are dark with no character and when I first saw it I could only think of the word splotchy.
Reilly's quality was way above this.

I think it is not OE finish and think it has been tarted up in hopes of a low knowledge buyer.

Reilly is a BV3 brand name. The gun looks to me like it is one step above a farmer's gun in Original Quality graded; so, OQ8. Current Condition looks like between "Shootable but needs some repairs and refinishing" CC6 and "Marginally shootable, significent repairs required soon or poor restoration," CC8.

BV3-OQ8-CC8 = $430
BV3-OQ8-CC8 = $180

What think you all about the value?

DDA

I don't think your evaluation has any value.

The gun is listed by a seller in England doesn't the gun have to pass some kind of proof other than someone looking at an Internet picture with the underliever not closed all the way and declaring the gun junk ?

The gun being an 8 gauge will bring a premium over the same gun in 12 or 10 gauge.

The 8 bore price is "POA." It is being sold by:
E.J. Churchill Shooting
Ground, Park Lane,
Lane End,
High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, HP14 3NS.

I sent them an e-mail requesting additional information. I've heard nothing back. (I asked for additional info on the name on the rib, pics of the flats, etc.). The Churchill name is storied - one presumes because of this that the shop is reputable (but then so are a number of Camel Salesmen, Carpet Shops and Used Car Dealerships I know).

As for the evaluation, Rocketman is the expert. The gun is plain. But frankly if I could get it for $400 + cost of asking SKB to import it for me, the check would be in the mail barring something really bad turning up. For instance it's interesting that there is no full picture of the gun - wonder if the barrels are lopped off?

I agree with everything except the OQ and the value. Very good quality with not much embellishment when new. The fact that it is an 8 ga. ups the value a whole bunch. I would say 3-4K USD even in the current sad condition. If it was well used but sound and original the value would be 2-3 times my above estimate. If the gun was a 12 bore I would agree with you DDA.
Steve

The lever not being fully closed "May" be a result of the Re-Case-Hardening.
You can believe it or not as You see fit, but parts DO MOVE when they go through the Critical Temperature in heat treating.

"IF" the part does not go through the Critical temp, it has just been colored at the expense of original hardness & not Re-Hardened.

My guess is that the hook has had work done to it due to the large gap at the front of the through lump.


You are of course 100% correct that it could be due to the re-hardening as well.

not closing it all the way for the photos.

The underlever looks fully centered in the photos of the top of the gun. jOe may be right.

The lever is not centered in any of the 4 posted pictures which are all I have to go on. The breech of the barrels appears to be seated as far as they are going to seat. My take from the pictures is it was not intentional just for photographing, I see no advantage in so doing.

I do not, of course, know if it is a result of the re-hardening, but that is a possibility.

Ooooops! Forgot it is an 8 bore. OK, how much "X" for 8 bore over 12 bore? I doubt that Churchill being the seller "should" influence the value very much. SKB, $3-4K would be 10X for a 12 bore. I allow 2-4X for double rifle over shotguns. What say you?

My curiosity is piqued.

There are only a couple places in the US you can use an 8. As I recall, it was only turkeys in AZ or something.

So, in the US, I would think the value for a well worn 8 is primarily as a decorative piece. And that (other than limited data in DA's matrix as an alternative) lends support to DA's evaluation.

So, why buy a well worn 8 and then endure VAT, importation costs, etc? It would not seem to be for "use".

Usable 8 bore guns have demand far exceeding supply. They can be used a few places here in the States but Canada and the UK push the value up because you can still use them on Waterfowl there. I think if the above gun was a 12 bore it would sell for 6-800$, maybe not fast but that kind of money. I would say maybe 4X for an eight bore.

The thing with the double rifle over shotgun value is caliber is a huge factor in double rifles. Bore diameter, availability of current loads, over all power, BP vs Nitro, how well the cartridge is known are all factors in the price of a double rifle.

For a 12 gauge to make $600-800 it has to value as BV3-OQ7-CC6 = $684. BV3 we know for sure. OQ7 is equivalent to a border engraved BLE or a 1/3 engraved BLNE as opposed to border engraved BLNE for OQ8. "Shootable but needs some repairs and refinishing or refinished with barrels or stock replaced," that is CC6 and "Shootable but needs expensive repairs or restored with stock and barrels replaced
" = CC7.

So, an 8 bore SXS shotgun values like an equivalent double rifle. I would not have thought so, but SKB has very impressive credentials. Guess I'll just have to pay more attention to auction results on 8 bores.

Opinions welcome. Any questions on my value charts?

DDA

I have sold 1 or 2 8ga guns a year. I find they sell for 5 to 7 times the price of a 12ga. the higher the grade and condition the higher the multiplier

Me thinks yo scale is way out of wack on this one...

And for the life of me I don't know how anyone could determine it needs extensive repairs.

Cz, US buyers do not pay VAT on gun purchases for export.

You cannot use an 8ga in my part of Canada while an 8 ga does command a good price

Good to know. Are there some places in Canada where the 8 Ga. is legal or am I mistaken? I thought I had remembered one of our members making a trip up there and using a 8 bore but I sure could be wrong.

Federal regulations in Canada dictate that "a shotgun not larger than number 10 gauge" for migratory birds.
Perhaps there was a time it was legal but not for quite a while...

Thank you both for correcting me.

SKB a review of the pics clearly shows the off-center under-lever. thanks. I've still not received anything from the seller - so nothing more on condition, length/condition of the barrels, address on the rib (I'm pretty sure it includes rue-Scribe), barrel flats, water table, proof marks, bore and chamber condition, etc; So unless someone calls Churchill, we're unlikely to know more. Still the photographs were pleasant.

For my information. what might be that discolored spot on the right barrel next to the fences?

I could be wrong, but it looks mightly like a bit of rust pitting to me.

pitting and poor browning

Argo, I live a short distance from you. Maybe I could look at the Reilly and purchase it. I collect and shoot eight bores. Sorry, now I notice that you don't own the Reilly.

eightbore, I haven't called for the price and suspect being marketed by Churchill it won't be a bargain. Nevertheless, I might ring them up since there are elements of the gun which interest me historically (and I wouldn't mind owning a Reilly 8 bore if it's shootable but I'm not a collector). If it's within a decent price range, I'll let you know. I've been meaning to meet you one of these days anyway. I go out one every couple of weeks to Bull Run to shoot sporting clays when I'm in the country.

I find it amusing that you experts don't realize that a normal Jones lever gun "clicks" into place at its final closing. The Reilly has not "clicked" into place. Has absolutely nothing to do with fit or wear.

And just how many guns have you put back on face Murphy? If you been around the restoration game very long you learn to look for clues, I mention several. Being the expert you are, could you explain the gap at the forward portion of the through lump? No matter how far you push the lever, that gap is not going away. It is also a very good indication that the lock up has been worked on, and not very well. Notice the top rib is not flush to the action additionally. Do not let reality cloud your rose colored glasses.

Just a thought from an frequent observer of these posts on DGS.
As for myself I don't often post very often because I am by no means an expert in any field let alone guns although I do have some fine guns. I am confused in the opinion of so few control the topics and adverse opinions by others are at times attached.
THAT SAID: I am confused how the same opinioned experts embrace an English gun that yearly is gone over from stock to barrel and the FOX,SMITH,parker, etc are rejected for the simple reblue, stock finish etc. Just an observation. I hope Homeless never leaves he seems to be the only one that keeps the experts on their toes.This topic is a perfect example.

That thing looks like a mess in every respect. No wonder the vendor does not give a description.

Pod,
I don't know if this will help to clarify things for you, or not, but

Think about the historical process of manufacturing a shotgun in the UK, consider all the important steps, the people responsible, and consider each a department. From beginning to delivery.

American guns routinely visit a different set of departments in their search for improved value.

I find your entire reply literally absurd...


Might be time to clean your chite stained glasses.

Thanks Pod....There are no real experts.

Oh please do expound upon that thought. The board learns so much from j0e....Like CC hardening that does not require a quench, that bar action locks did not exist during the percussion period and so much more. Keep the laughs coming big boy.

Well big bOy (er girl)

I think you been hitting the bOng again.

You know the kids these days have an expression for folks like you....DAF.


You probably do better with video's.....let Larry show you how, just about 1 minute in.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spj9ndC452M


and another, about 8 minutes in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9ExouQ2byY


Now would you care to address my points about the lock up on the Reilly? Not likely.

SKB, I was not making a statement about the condition of the gun, only that the photographer may have not clicked the lever into place. However, some seem to think that a lever not clicked into place tells volumes about gun condition. It tells us nothing. Your post seems to say that a lever not in place says something about a gun having been rejoined. It does not.

Hershe should stop hitting the bOng so much...

You are missing my whole point Murphy.....if you look at all the issues with the gun it is very likely the reason the lever is not clicked in place is that the gun has been messed with.


I'm not sure how many guns you have bought from the Brits but I have bought several hundred. You learn to look for certain signs....this one has them all. I have seen actions squeezed in vises, every imaginable part welded, brazed, soft soldered and peened. I have seen this very issue, many times. If you stop short of fitting the barrels completely this is what you get.

Did you learn anything from the video dummy? I can continue with remedial metallurgy just for you.

Yea right...about like you were ye'ol Teague barrel liner for the USA.

That refused to answer any questions about the process.

You are confused as usual. I never performed or claimed to perform the barrel lining process. I was the US representative and packed and shipped them to the UK for the gent performing the work.

Did you learn anything from the video dummy? Your welcome for the free education I have been giving you on vintage firearms.