I've read here turkeys drive out ruffed grouse. A hunters' group is campaigning to introduce turkeys to Nova Scotia. Appreciate opinions of the US experience. Farmers are mostly against it but I don't know if it's for biological reasons or not wanting hunters on their lands. NS is good grouse country.

Only opinion here King that I'm sure will differ with others. In places that I've seen turkeys range naturally, they seem to stay in balance with the other critters. While I don't get over there like I did in the past, after Wisconsin made a push to introduce turkeys, it took its toll on the ruffed grouse. I don't know if they left so much as had eggs and chicks eaten.

If introduced turkey becomes some great success story that exceeds expectations, it'll likely be at the expense of something else. They are a pretty aggressive predator with an effective exit strategy if something else tries to feed on them. I've seen them peck at their reflections on basement widows not long ago in an area that used to be respectable with grouse maybe fifteenish years ago. It's not impressive.

Try and keep the turkeys out if you can. Many grouse hunters believe that our turkey population “success story” has come at the expense of our grouse population. Upon discovering turkey scratching in a grouse covert our standard procedure is to move on to the next covert.

Here in southern NY/CT 30 years ago grouse were common if not plentiful, turkey were never seen. Now turkeys are plentiful and I saw a single grouse in the last 20 years about 6-7 years ago, nothing since.

Keep em out

What... turkeys, or anti-2nd Amendment Nova Scotians?

I think the latter are worse.

turkeys are predatory varmints, that destroy grouse and other ground nesting birds...

+1

The turkey is simply another predator of grouse eggs and young (or anything else it happens to come across). Anytime you introduce a new species into an area, existing ones always feel the effect.

go with the Turkeys....they are bigger...easier to hit.....taste better...usually can hunt them in spring and fall..and all without a dog.....plus you only have to kill one a year to think yourself a man.....

If they are not there now I would not introduce them......IMO it would not be good for your grouse.

Have there been any studies reflecting turkeys being a causation of the decline of grouse? Gil

Thanks, all. Rare such unanimity on an issue.

Turkeys are a pestilence. Do not allow them into your area. I wish they ad never been introduced into my farms. If I thought I could get rid of them I would shoot them on sight without remorse. Quail were at a level which were enough to hunt. Now they are almost completely gone. Where turkeys are quail are not around there.

So true...

Tell the group to go to hell turkeys weren't native there.

That's some silly shit...quail were gone before the turkeys became abundant in Kentucky...

Guess you were a sleep.

Gil, it's a complicated issue. Many of us have seen turkey numbers increase while grouse numbers decline in the same area. Habitat changes, more nest predators (like raccoons) due to a decrease in trapping pressure, the impact of West Nile virus on grouse . . . there are a lot of factors. But because turkeys are so common in areas where there were none relatively recently, it's easy to point the finger at them as the sole (or major) cause in the decline of grouse numbers.

Game biologists will tell you that turkeys don't have a negative impact on grouse. And, in general, DNR's like to point to the reintroduction of wild turkeys as a modern day success story in wildlife management. (Turkey hunting is also in the best interest of state wildlife agencies, because there are special licenses involved, which = additional revenue.) But those same biologists didn't expect turkey numbers to explode the way they have . . . nor, for example, that turkeys would inhabit parts of the country (like northern WI/MN and the UP) where they either were not found historically or else were only present in very limited numbers. So it's gone beyond what they expected to see from the reintroduction.

But turkeys are an overly simple explanation for what is almost certainly the more complex issue of declining grouse numbers.

I'm surprised turkeys weren't rounded up as the usual suspects in 1932 in the Lindbergh Kidnapping. They seemed to get blamed for a lot of disappearances. Gil

LOL...Geo

to my knowledge, there have yet to be any reports of turkeys attacking human babies...however, if provided with the opportunity, they would most likely go for the eyes first...

I think that's best left to the Nova-Scotians. Your biologists are local and would be most familiar with you specific ecosystem. FWIW, I've never heard farmers complain about turkeys the way they do about deer or wild hogs...Geo

To me that says a lot Larry. Maybe, only so many critters can fit into a patch of woods, and the ones that show increases are probably doing so at the expense of others, regardless of complexity.

The part I couldn't help but ask about, are these the same authorities doing the research and writing the expert reference publications? How could they have possibly been motivated by money and blind sided by unintended consequences? And yet, they hold the same conclusions, or at least will tell the same stories?

Oh well, I'm sure there's some way to tell that this is an isolated example, and they are ready to tackle more complex issues.

I know very little about grouse, but it's hard for me to believe that turkeys could be a significant nest predator. Turkey poults primarily eat insects, but after that their diet becomes mostly plant materials. I don't think they are ever gonna go out hunting for grouse nests.

However, they may very well compete with the grouse for some of the same foods, and could have a negative effect on them in that manner.

I've seen turkeys and quail thrive on the same land for many years, but the quail are now gone from the land that I can hunt. As much as I enjoy turkey hunting, I would rather have quail. I don't believe our quail decline is related to turkeys.

I don't know how it is in Canada, but where I live it doesn't matter what we think anyway. The state dcnr is gonna do whatever they wanna do, and what people think about it doesn't matter to them.

Turkeys are voracious omnivorous. They roam the forest floor in flocks digging up and overturning vegetation as they go. They will eat anything that they can fit in their mouths.

I highly doubt they are specifically looking for grouse eggs or young, but if they come across them they undoubtedly will be eaten. Just like any other organism they happen across.

To introduce turkey where they were not historically found, is to simply introduce yet another predator into the live cycles of the animals already inhabiting that environment.

It will be left to regional communities to determine if that is a good idea.

Flintfan, I think this to be the case too. Adaptable and opportunistic creatures out competing the less so.

We have both in the SW Va Mtns. When Turkey populations are up, the Grouse are not to be seen. Turkeys have been down the last two years and yep, seeing more grouse than ever.

Charlie

That's the way it is supposed to work. Bobwhite quail are the ultimate prey species. Should we kill'em all with poison, weather or predators and then give them two years of good weather and a relief from whatever's been killing them and they should be up to your ears. It hasn't been working that way the last 30 years around here...Geo

I am not following your post at all Geo. What species are you referring to with the "kill'em all with poison" statement?

The OP just stated an observation. He didn't advocate for taking any measures.

Being an actual land owner in SW VA I would agree with his statement about when Turkey numbers are up the grouse numbers are down.

1cdog, my point was simply that whatever is happening to the quail population, no matter what it is, they should be able to bounce back when the cause is reversed, be it predators, pesticides or bad weather...Geo

For the most part, turkeys weren't introduced where they'd never been historically. They were reintroduced where they had been historically, but in some cases have spread out into areas where they hadn't been before.

Biologists made some bad assumptions about turkeys. When they were reintroduced in Iowa and had become numerous enough to support a hunting season, the DNR biologist told me we'd probably never kill more than 1,000 of them in a season. That was based on the fact that Iowa doesn't have a whole lot of forest, and on how much mast turkeys need to eat in order to survive. While those assumptions likely worked historically, they fell apart when the birds were brought into a very agricultural state where they had no shortage of high quality food other than the nuts, berries etc they could eat in the woods: CORN. It wasn't long at all before Iowa turkey hunters left the 1,000 bird harvest in the rear view mirror. What Iowa has is unusually high densities of turkeys where there are woodlands, because of all the food provided to them by the farmers.

What the Iowa game biologist failed to do was to read the notes of the Buffalo hunters in the Western plains. They told of herds of turkeys that were nearly as numerous as herds of bison. The most they had for trees out there was something called the chinaberry tree.

I sure wish everyone here would become a game biologist. Obviously all the expertise lies behind the keyboards on this forum.

Some time back MO had lots of turkeys and few grouse. WI had lots of grouse and few Turkeys. So WI traded MO grouse for turkeys and now MO has turkey and few grouse an WI has lots of turkey and few grouse.

one of the reasons turkey, dove and deer killing is so popular among today's sedimentary couch potato type hunters, is that it requires minimal physical effort...these spectator sports fan, make believe hunters, sit on their butts waiting in ambush...whereas, real hunters are always on the move and cover many miles in pursuit of game...state game regulators dont like true pursuit hunting, because they cant control the whereabouts of the hunters...this is why grouse and quail management by state game regulators has declined in the past 30 years, nationwide...and by introducing predators, like the wild turkey, the control oriented regulators are destroying the few remaining natural upland game birds.

Hahaha... this egotistical comment comes from an "EXPERT" who can't see any problem with wildly differing claims of what constitutes a lethal dose of lead in eagles in various so-called scientific papers.

Dare to point out these glaring discrepancies to Brent, and you become the enemy because it is a terrible sin in his eyes to question some of the obvious junk science that has been used to impose lead ammunition bans.

Both but from one Keith to another wild turkeys first and jive turkey's second

Well Brent I could safely wager that those plains dwelling turkeys had little effect on ruffed grouse, yes?
Let's engage a moment. Would you agree that turkey may have an impact on ruffed grouse? A contribution to their decline?

Turkeys will populate wherever the habitat is good enough for them,

Huge populations of ruffed grouse as well. Most people's "perspective" on them is based on their population explosion due to continental clearing, huge fires, and literary ebullience.

No young forests, no ruffed grouse, burn half a state, mucho ruffed grouse to write about.

1 hedgerow, 1 plowed field, a flock of turkeys. No ruffed grouse.

I personally do not have any empirical data showing one way or the other in the turkey vs. grouse debate. All I can provide is what I have seen in the woods. Turkeys and grouse are absolutely competing in and around the grape thickets for the same food. Do I think a flock of turkeys could out-compete a few grouse for the same food in these areas? Yes. Do I think large flocks of turkeys during nesting season are roaming the woods devouring grouse young? I could not say. However, in PA we have an autumn turkey hunting season which is very much different from spring gobbler hunting. In autumn, you can hunt for either sex of turkey and the tactics are much different with a lot more stalking (and blaze orange) involved. Perhaps, this autumn turkey season may provide the opportunity to keep both populations in a sort of balance. Again, just an observation and not based on any kind of data. An additional note (and probably an obvious one) - as grouse woods age, mature and become bigger and larger hardwood stands, turkeys will thrive whereas grouse numbers will decrease. On the converse, if much of the forest is clear cut and replaced with young, dense low story tree groves and tangled greenbriar and grapevine, would the turkeys do as well as the grouse? I doubt it. However, I am not a biologist...

Why quite obviously the plains turkeys completely exterminated the Ruffed Grouse from the western plains. There isn't even a single ruff left out there anywhere...

In lieu of something like real data (which may actually exist if anyone cares to look, but who cares?), I will stick with turkeys having not more then epsilon and probably much less effect than that on ruffed grouse. Of course, epsilon is a fairly small number, so I could be wrong.

I kinda like real data, not armchair acrobatics before I pass judgement. Just a weird hang up that I have.

in nh, we have an active logging culture...lots of clear cut areas in various stages of regrowth...we are infested with many large flocks of turkeys...we have very few grouse, where they were once in abundance, before the wild turkey was introduced about 30 years ago....

as for real data...it is usually produced and manipulated by gubmint employees, with an agenda to justify their continued employment at the tax payers expense...

Whatever. It certainly would beat what you have for data, no doubt about that.

From personal and professional experience, measuring this sort of thing is not easy, and intuition truly sucks for picking the winning hypotheses.

Geo...thank you.

You may have a bunch of it, but you don’t tend to produce much data when you make judgements about forum participants.

I have read that trail cameras set up to observe grouse nests have photographed turkeys eating the grouse eggs.

Interesting topic. There is this thing on the interweb called "google" that can help. Of course, since these are from fish and game departments you may not believe them.

Bruce

https://ag.tennessee.edu/fwf/Documents/C...populations.pdf

http://www.myminnesotawoods.umn.edu/2018/04/wild-turkey-and-ruffed-grouse-the-mistaken-blame-game/

https://www.wpr.org/wild-turkeys-arent-actually-hurting-ruffed-grouse-populations%2C-expert-says

Remember when there were photos all over the web of whitetails eating quail? That was the answer then.

The downfall of grouse is coincidence with the growth of timber wolves and their spread out of the Arrowhead Country. I'm sure they are to blame.

Huh, that's strange. It wasn't that long ago that you claimed the most significant milestone that took place in the recovery of the bald eagle was the passing of the lead shot ban for waterfowl. However when presented with information showing that the ban was statistically insignificant to the bald eagle's recovery you chose not to believe the data presented from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

I guess we all perform armchair acrobatics, don't we?

Sorry, Flintfan, I have read the data on that one.

Brent, Notice I stated may and could in my questions. I have likely read most studies on the decline of ruffed grouse that have been out in the last ten years or so. I too like real data. The reduction in logging seems to be the most identified reason, OK, I'll buy into that as it is easy to understand and makes perfect sense. The chainsaw is the grouse's friend! I read the above linked article, the UofM one. Nothing there that would indicate a conclusion one way or the other. A lot of info on habitat and diet. That is easy enough to take in and mostly agree with. So why is it a consistent observation that a rising turkey population in ruffed grouse habitat results in a reducing or reduced ruffed grouse population? It would seem that if it's west nile virus the turkeys would be much more susceptible due to their social interactions. For the record I do not think that turkeys intentionally go after grouse, In fact I don't think they "prey" upon anything. I do think that they are opportunists that will eat about anything that they find.

It would not surprise me in the least to one day read that a discovery and been made that, due to a chain of related events or reactions, the decline in quail was directly related to the explosion in the whitetail population. It happened at exactly the same time here.

SRH

In this discussion, the verdict has been passed on the guilt of turkeys (and the sloth of turkey hunters, cf. ed good's post on the despicable turkey hunter vs. the REAL hunter).

As I have said before, getting data to make those sorts of claims is darn hard. It is also expensive. If it exists, I'm unaware of it, but I have not looked hard for it either. In the meantime, it seem extremely unlikely that turkeys could or would be a significant source of mortality for quail for a whole host of reasons.

Seems like it wasn't too long ago that coyotes were The Problem for quail decline. What happened to that? Now it's turkeys. Tomorrow we will be back to whitetails.

That's what you said last time. In fact you also stated you had posted that "data" numerous times. Turns out that was an outright lie.

https://www.fws.gov/midwest/eagle/population/chtofprs.html

Here it is so you can ignore it once again. By the 1991 ban on lead shot the eagle population was well on it's way to recovery. There was no statistical change in recovery after the ban. In fact, the rate of increase actually went down.

Can we see "your" data again?

No, what I said was DDT - remember that hot topic, and keith throwing it at it was the chief downfall of raptors including eagles. This, of course, went against keith's agenda, and so the discussion progressed. Lead shot certainly contributed to that, and ingested lead shot (and more, lead bullets) are certainly killing eagles today, just not enough to slow the population's growth significantly.

Then there was the role of ingested lead and ducks and ANOTHER long diatribe from the "believers" that again went against published data and primary research. But hey, science can always be dismissed.

Or proven wrong, Brent.

Was it "armchair acrobatics" to actually read a bunch of the so-called science cited by Brent and Larry Clown in last years "Lead and Condor Deaths" thread pertaining to their outspoken belief that lead shot and lead bullets are a significant cause of lead poisoning in eagles?

Was it "armchair acrobatics" to notice that the numbers cited in these so-called scientific papers contained glaring discrepancies and huge variations in what they claimed to constitute a lethal dose of lead in eagles blood systems, and waterfowl too?

Was it "armchair acrobatics" to question the insane and dishonest assertions that most hunter killed deer left the woods littered with gut piles containing hundreds of lead bullet fragments that were then consumed by eagles?

Was it "armchair acrobatics" to catch Larry red-handed doing selective editing of the Audobon Society mission statement where he intentionally excluded their position on lead ammunition bans and sport hunting?

When repeatedly pointed out to Brent and Larry, they didn't say, hey you may be right... these can't all be true and correct. Instead, they chose to shoot the messenger, and they chose to ignore the significance of many other sources of environmental lead contamination that are much more bio-available, and much more likely to cause elevated blood lead levels in birds and animals.

Brent thinks I have an agenda. Brent is correct. My agenda is to ferret out the lies and fictional data that have been used by anti-gunners and anti-hunters who use both junk science and useful idiots like Brent and Larry (and King and Grouse Guy, etc.) to advance their own agenda of making hunting and shooting prohibitively expensive and eventually illegal.

Of course, Brent and Larry are obviously much smarter than the rest of us because only guys like them are able to respond to people they claim to IGNORE.

Yes. Yes I do.

What you actually said when discussing the lead for waterfowl ban:



And when it was I who pointed out it was the banning of DDT that had the most significant effect on the recovery of the bald eagle, your reply was:



When pressed to present that mythical literature, which you mistakenly claimed to have posted many times already, it was nowhere to be found for some strange reason.

I'm sorry, but your credibility on this topic is zilch.

I've noted before that things began a downhill slide shortly after they took the rocks off the moon during the Apollo missions.

Habitat has a whole lot to do with the numbers on any game bird. I own a 400 acre tract of land in AL. My father bought the first parcel in 1965 and I have been able to add other parcels through the years. We had a good turkey and quail population the first 15 years.

A big section of it was clearcut in 1979 and replanted in loblolly pine. The quail thrived until the pines got about 10' tall, and by 1985 they were gone. I haven't shot a single one on the place since then. We got a few turkeys around the edges for a few years after it was cut, but from 1983 til 1990 we didn't get a turkey either.

We started killing turkeys again in 1991 and have killed at least one on the place every year since. Once the pines got tall enough that the ground under them was fairly open, the turkeys moved back in, but the quail never have.

I have managed the land much differently than the way it used to be. I've got 50 acres of open land and 80 acres in longleaf pine that is burned often and looks more like a field than a forest. I burn all the rest of the timber land on a 3 year rotation, providing every kind of cover that game birds should need.

It has worked very well for the turkeys. We have taken a total of 10 gobblers off it in the past 2 seasons, and that's the most ever in the more than 50 years we've had it. But the quail still aren't there, even though it looks like great quail habitat. The land that surrounds is paper company land and poor quail habitat. My theory is that they just can't survive in isolation on small tracts. There was a lot of cutover land surrounding us in 1980, and we had 5 or 6 coveys; now I don't think I have a single one.

I don't believe that the presence of turkeys on the place is in any way keeping us from having quail. There are large areas 100 miles to the south where both are doing well on the same properties.

It may be different with grouse, but this is my experience with habitat change being the primary driver of population change of our game birds.

well, first we need to close all grouse hunting seasons...then, lets exterminate all of the varmints, including turkeys, that are known or suspected to affect grouse populations...say for 20 years...then, if by that time, the grouse have not recovered, then we really could blame hit awl on moon rocks...

Post hoc ergo propter hoc

If you take that attitude, then there is no answer.
O.M

hic, hoc, humm...

In your case, and in many hundreds for thousands of acres of the Southland, it is the planted pines. Loblolly pine plantations are a death knell for quail. Think about it. What is there to hold or sustain quail? No cover, no food, no nesting habitat. I don't blame them for leaving. Really, it's not just quail. It's most other wildlife as well. The only species I have ever seen that do well in pine plantations are fox squirrels. And, my grandchildren would have to be starving for me to shoot a fox squirrel.

SRH

you and your grandchildren are missing out. Fox squirrel is the finest wild game in all of North America for table fare, and mighty fun hunting too. but I've never seen them doing well in loblolly or long leaf plantations in the 20 yrs or so that I was working in them.

Hard to blame moon rocks when they are all as phony as a $3 bill. Nothing more than some Mohave desert gravel, picked up by MGM or whatever studio produced those "moon walks" for the gubbmint.

Their value as table fare has nothing to do with the reason I refuse to shoot them. I have a strong connection with fox squirrels. They remind me of me. They are solitary beings. You never see them in pairs or groups. I can't explain it actually, but they're just special to me. Cat (grey) squirrels? Nah. Kill 'em all as far as I am concerned. Nothing but tree rats.

SRH

Well, that's not a bad reason to not hunt them, I suppose. But I bet they taste a lot better marinated and slow grilled than you do...

Just a guess though.

That's a strange thought.

SRH

the "remind me of me" part...

Stan, you are absolutely right about most loblolly plantations. The paper company land is good habitat only for the first few years after planting, and the way most of them manage their land it is not decent quail habitat again until it's cut.

But there is a management system here that produces good quail habitat by cutting way back on the number of trees per acre after they are mature. With 15-20 trees per acre, there is lots of room for an understory that is loaded with quail food. Longleaf is a better tree for this type system, but many of the folks that have these type plantations already had a loblolly forest, so they have made quail woods using them. It requires frequent burning no matter the pine species.

I have a friend who is a forester that makes his living managing these type quail plantations. And they are loaded with turkeys too.

Yep, there's a lot of that type pine land around here. When a pine plantation is harvested to yield that type result it is called a "plantation cut" , around here. Great for quail, especially. Old growth is especially beautiful when managed that way.

SRH

Stan, you've never seen fox squirrels in pairs? In Iowa, I often saw them chasing each other around like crazy.

As for the pines, they're likely one reason CRP didn't help quail much (if at all) in the Southeast. Trees can be planted instead of grass. Didn't happen much here in the Midwest, but I understand that it did in the South.

Re Eagles, DDT, and lead shot: Data on the number of breeding pairs of bald eagles doesn't show that the rate of increase was steady after the lead shot ban. For example, per FWS data there was almost no increase from 1999-2000 (from 6404 to 6471), and then only about a 10% increase from 2000 to 2005 (6471 to 7066). And 10% was about the annual rate of increase from 1987 (after the DDT ban but before the lead shot ban) to 1991, when lead shot was banned. With only one significant exception, that rate of increase remained relatively steady until 1999, at which point numbers flattened out a lot (only about a 10% increase in the 6 year period from 99-05.) Then, however, numbers took a HUGE jump: from 7066 in 05 to 9789 in 06. Makes me wonder whether there was a change in how the numbers were arrived at. That's a far larger jump than any other single year increase.

40 years ago there were no wild turkeys in Maine. Then, about a dozen or so were dumped down by Agamenticus.

Today, the #1 nuisance species in Maine is ... the wild turkey. That's per IFW. They're everywhere, particularly close to houses where one cannot hunt them.

Are Maine's grouse numbers up, down or the same as 40 years ago? I can't say for sure, but the overall sense I take from fellow hunters is "down". And that's factoring in the cyclic changes in abundance which have been there since forever. Yes, there are lots of other things affecting grouse abundance. But when a species goes from non-existent to #1 pest in 40 years, something has to give and that something is usually the species which were here before. Read up on the episodes of invasive species taking over ecosystems and the negative impact on prior residents is a theme repeated over and over.

Larry,

I lived most of my life in rural Iowa. The Red Fox Squirrel of the midwest is a totally different species from the Fox Squirrel of the Southeast.

Southeastern Fox Squirrel:
http://newsstand.clemson.edu/mediarelati...south-carolina/

Also known as Sherman's Fox Squirrel:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_fox_squirrel

Midwest variety:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_squirrel

The city park in Centerville Iowa had, when I was living there, a large number of the local Fox squirrels with a form of albinism making them blond.

John

We never see pairs of fox squirrels here. They are always solitary. Almost 100% of CRP in the Southeast went into pines. At first they would do loblolly, the preferred species for fast growth. Now, the only one they will allow is longleaf.

The #1 nuisance species here is deer, far and away. There were always some that lived in the deep swamps, but in the late '60s and early '70s they moved out "on the hill" and learned to cohabitate with people, to my regret. One has been coming inside my farm shop headquarters at night, going under the equipment shelter, jumping up on a 18 ft. trailer, and eating treated peanut seed that spilled onto the floor of the trailer.

Interesting that there is a red fox squirrel up north. We see fox squirrels here in several color phases, but never red. Thanks for the links, John E.

SRH

Same time here...the nasty ditch goats need to go

Stan, I've wondered whether or not the red phase is the same as "our" fox squirrel here in the south. They are beautiful animals and no two have the same coloration scheme and it is always a treat to see one loping along the ground to the nearest pine. A few wma's I hunt prohibit the hunting of them and that's okay by me. Gil

The southeastern fox squirrel sometimes called a red squirrel in the south and the midwestern fox squirrel are both the same species, Sciurus niger. They come in many coolor variations, hence the name.

Like Stan, I've never seen a red one. Usually shades of gray or black often with white on its face or ears. Always two toned coloration on squirrels I've seen. Gil

That is incorrect. DDT was banned for all agricultural use in the United States in 1972, which represented all but a small fraction of it's annual use. True, it was used for very limited "public health" (i.e. flea, bedbug, etc. infestations within dwellings) circumstances until 1987. However that specific usage had very limited, if any, relationship to it's impact on bald eagles compared to it's agricultural use.

1972 is the date you need to use.

Wait a minute! They call those critters "Sherman's squirrels" in the South, and the Rebs haven't wiped them out? Say it ain't so!

But my apology for not knowing that a Yankee fox squirrel and a rebel fox squirrel aren't the same critter.

Sorry if what I wrote was not clear, FF. I didn't say that 1987 was when DDT was banned; I said that 1987 was "after the DDT ban". Otherwise, I would have written "1987, when DDT was banned."

But we still need to deal with that increase of nearly 40%, from 05 to 06, reflected in FWS's count of breeding pairs.

Ya'll have confused me. One species fox squirrel or two?

We do have the red variation here in Ga, just not as common as the gray/black in my experience. I have lots of'em at my middle GA farm.

For some reason I don't shoot them though I love to shoot and eat grays. Some guy from up North put an ad somewhere that he'd pay $1,000 to come South and shoot a Fox Squirrel. Bucket list thing I guess. One of my sons took him up on it and he shot one of my Fox Squirrels and paid up!...Geo

A breeding pair of Eagles can disrupt all kinds of road construction. When they were getting ready to put the new Route95 bridge over the Potomac a patient of mine was given the job of evaluating the impact on local wildlife. This site was next to a six or eight lane major highway. He reported to his boss he was amazed by the wildlife in that three acre spot. There was a family of beaver, white tail deer and a large tree which had a large nest in it which most likely was a Eagle nest but could have been an Ospreys nest. It was the dead of winter so not an active nest. His boss directed him to re-evaluate the site in a month or two to “make sure” the nest was not an active one. When he went back in a month the beaver were dead and the tree the nest was it had been cut down. End of wildlife conflict.

Last Eagle I saw on one of my farms was eating a dead Perdue oven stuffer which had died and was thrown out with the manure when they cleaned out the house. There was our national symbol eating a dead chicken like a common buzzard.

I see eagles eating road kill often. In fact, when I see one that is usually what they are doing.

SRH

You need to look at the state by state surveys for those years. 2000 was the last year that every state submitted a survey. After that year it was determined they were no longer needed due to the recovery that had taken place with the bald eagle population.

In 2005 and 2006 states opted to conduct their own surveys again. Some of them did in 2005 and some did in 2006. The raw totals between those years can not be compared because states did not report numbers in both years.

With data after 2000 being inconstantly reported, it is more difficult to determine accurate numbers of breeding pairs after that point.

There is a funny story that goes with the naming of S. niger, but suffice it to say, you aren't the first to be fooled by the color morphs.

Meanwhile, there is such a thing as a "Squirrel Slam." The grand slam of squirrels... One day, soonish, I intend to complete it.

You cannot believe all game department's "data", either. In the late '70s and early '80s I supplemented my farm income with trapping and selling hides. I was a land-liner, using my pickup to cover many miles a day taking red and grey fox, bobcat, 'coons and otter. I would see an occasional panther in the early morning. Every year at the trapper's convention the game department would confidently claim there were no panthers in GA. There were then, and there are now.

SRH

A few years ago a Florida panther was seen at Ft. Stewart. Not surprising you've seen them up the Savannah River. The river corridor is wild and woolly. Gil

There is a 500 acre Carolina Bay that is partially on my land, and only 800 yards or so from my house. There is another 1000 acre one a little over a mile from here, The Savannah river is only about 1 1/2 mi. away, and there are creeks/branches that flow through here into the Savannah. Lots of places for panthers to frequent............ and plenty of deer for them to eat. There are brown ones and black ones here.

Any wild critter that kills deer is welcome on my place.

SRH

there have been multiple sightings of cougars and wolves in northern new england in recent years...all poopawed by fish and game regulators...would love to see a black panther in the woods, but not in my town...

up here, coyotes and bears take a heavy toll on deer, especially new born fawns, in the spring...

Up this way, when an eagle shows up on a road kill (usually a deer), it tends to deter the vultures and ravens. And is also a very common sight.

Surprised no one has mentioned that Ben Franklin wanted the Wild Turkey and not the Bald Eagle as our national bird...

"The story about Benjamin Franklin wanting the National Bird to be a turkey is just a myth. This false story began as a result of a letter Franklin wrote to his daughter criticizing the original eagle design for the Great Seal, saying that it looked more like a turkey. In the letter, Franklin wrote that the “Bald Eagle...is a Bird of bad moral Character. He does not get his Living honestly…[he] is too lazy to fish for himself.”

About the turkey, Franklin wrote that in comparison to the bald eagle, the turkey is “a much more respectable Bird, and withal a true original Native of America...He is besides, though a little vain & silly, a Bird of Courage.” So although Benjamin Franklin defended the honor of the turkey against the bald eagle, he did not propose its becoming one of America’s most important symbols."

Or maybe the above is a myth, too. However, I saw it on the internet so it has to be true. Gil

I think the turkey is a plenty respectable bird. Like many other introduced plants, birds and other animals, maybe they could range naturally, instead of based on the decision of a small handful of 'experts'. I think it's rare to have any responsibility for consequences and probably just as unlikely to be open to solutions.

In an effort to embiggen the shallow gene pool of the remaining Florida Cougars, they have experimented stocking of Western Mountain Lions around the State. A few have shown up in Georgia, including the one that ran across the road in front of me in broad daylight in the "Pocket" area of the Okefenokee a couple of years ago...Geo

Geo, a while back a S. Ga. Nimrod shot a "cougar" from his deer stand and reported it to authorities. USF&W ran its dna and it turned out to no ones' surprise, a protected Florida panther. It only cost the hunter a $10,000 fine.
As for invasive species, a deceased friend's dad while county agent (think Hank Kimball) introduced kudzu to landowners in an Alabama county to reduce erosion. Experts suggest the best way to rotate the kudzu crop is to sell the land and buy another piece. Gil

Gil, I read about that one. It was over around Columbus on the Chattahoochee. Poor guy was deer hunting; I'd have shot it too.

Someone local killed one with a bow in Echols county and tacked the skin in the barn to dry, along with the radio tracker. Guess what happened?...Geo

From practical point of view decision should be made based on economic well being and overall stability of your county. In USA we prefer wild turkey for simple reason when things collapse turkey provides more meat per bird than quail or grouse. Turkey is larger target which means it's far easier to hit with bow and arrow, cross bow or $1500 arrow shooting "air gun" thingy.

On Wade Plantation, next to me, some years ago a hunter killed a deer and drug him out to the field road but couldn't load him in the pickup by himself. He drove to headquarters to get help, then drove straight back. The deer was gone, but there was a bloody drag mark leading off into the brush and high weeds. They followed it in the dark and found it, covered in leaves and sticks. My friend said he and the hunter backed out very slowly and left without the deer. Wise move, IMO.

SRH

And another anecdotal, true cat story. When we were teenagers, in the '60s, two friends of mine, brothers, had built a makeshift tree stand up in a large tree to try and kill a deer on their Dad's farm about three miles from here, and near the Savannah River. One had a gun, the other a good flashlight. Their plan was to stay up the tree until after dark, if need be, and spotlight the deer and shoot it. They heard leaves crunching after dark and the sound got under them, but seemed to make noise on the tree they were in. One brother shined the light down and a panther was climbing the tree towards them, directly beneath. It startled the cat about as much as it did them, the cat ran aways, then it got quiet. They stayed up that tree for a looong time before getting up enough nerve to climb down and walk home.

SRH

Never seen a cougar or a bear beneath my deer stand, but I did once see a real monster diamond-back rattler. Hard to climb down that night!...Geo