Enjoyed recent discussions of trends in values for British guns, given the advent of millennials and their lack of interest, no-tox shot restrictions, more large collections going to market, etc.

Most here probably agree about a current "soft" market for user-grade vintage guns, and especially for those in 12 gauge. Guns of this stripe seem to sit on shelves almost indefinitely. Classifieds for some of these guns appear to go unanswered.

So what do you think the long-term trend will be for sleeved guns?

My own knee-jerk reaction would be something like: "A worse outlook than for guns with original barrels...even those with borderline wall thicknesses."

Therefore, is a sleeved Boss (with minimum wall thickness of .028 or .030) worth half of a Boss with borderline barrels (.020 or less and/or heavy pitting)?

Or a third of an original? Even less?

I'd like to hear some informed opinions on this subject.

As a kicker: Is it possible in coming years that sleeved guns may actually rise in value, as millennial shooters already using Berettas or Krieghoffs with monoblocs defy the conventional trend and rise to embrace them? (Younger shooters may want 2.75-inch chambers and better wall thicknesses for shooting modern/cheaper shells and to better handle no-tox shot.)

Where are we headed...any insights?

I have a couple of very well done sleevers. I would not reduce the prices due to the improvement of the barrels...Geo

I would think that a gun resleeved by the maker or a reputable gunsmith known for sleeving would be okay. I understand that sleeving done can alter the gun's balance and handling adversely however. I know that I've passed up some beauties that had their chambers lengthened for the sake of modern 2 3/4" shells.
Being confronted with a sleeved gun that I really wanted is a serious decision. A sleeving job that is visable makes my eyes hurt!
Karl

Sleeved barrels are the only way to make many guns safe to shoot. You don’t sleeve a gun until you have no other choice. As to value going from wall hanger or scrap to a shoot able gun does improve its value. Not to pristine condition but to at least a decent percentage.

If a gun has thin barrels it will be very hard to sell period. Who is going to buy a gun which they can not shoot? One wall hanger per person is enough. Sleeving saves guns from the closet or scrap heap.

Jon,
I agree but would add that an invisable quality job be the minimun criteria.
Karl

You ommitted the possibilities opened up by technological advances.

It is an even bet that there will be commercialisation of till now unheard of remanufacturing capabilities, especially in the rebarreling of old actions.

I do not agree the market on a sleeved gun versus a .020 minimum thickness barreled gun (which for most of us too thin to risk shooting) would equal 50% of value. Given the sleeving is a quality job maintaining the handling dynamics.

I believe good sleeving makes an otherwise unshootable gun useful again. Good sleeving is out there.

Just a note.

There may be a misunderstanding, judging from some of the replies.

Not arguing against (or for) the utility of sleeving. I'm asking about market values...and that implies a question posed more to prospective buyers than to sellers.

The example: Given two Boss guns of the same period, stock dimensions, etc., one with good or borderline original barrels, and one that has been sleeved...what would the price difference be?

Would the sleeved gun sell for half the price of the gun in "original" condition?

That's the question.

Thanks!

No, IMHO...Geo

Now that you have changed your example from unshootable, IMHO a 12ga sleeved gun will sell 30 to 40% less than a Boss with good barrels (.028 or better). This assumes a quality sleeving job and near to or invisible joint, But this is an educated guess without a detailed study of a lot of sales. Sleeved compared marginal or borderline barrels (heavily pitted or sub .024) maybe be close to a wash or better valued.

To a collector maybe. To a shooter, the value of a marginal gun would have to be discounted enough to reflect those defects. So for shooter grade guns I doubt there would be a 50% difference.

The impact of sleeving on handling numbers is predictable. If you plan to replace thin tubes with thicker, you best be prepared for handling changes. But then, the handling you experience with thin tubes is not like when the gun left the maker. The weight, balance (teeter-totter), and swing efforts are not "ruined", rather, they are changed. If you like light weight, rear balanced, low/fast swing efforts you may find the handling of a sleeved gun degraded. On the other hand, if you like weighter guns with more forward balance and higher/slower swing efforts you may well find sleeving a gun improves its handling.

DDA

Rocketman, what is your opinion on price?

Michael,

To use RM's spreadsheet you would need to determine the Current Condition (CC) of the gun(s). If you assume a gun has to be sleeved for safety reasons, then the CC would be 8 or 9 (marginally shootable or wall hanger). After sleeving, it would be a 6 or 7 (note: the spreadsheet doesn't have a sleeving category, but does show barrel replacement).

Very marginal to unsafe Boss Best SLE: BV1-OQ1-CC8=$3876
Sleeved Boss Best SLE: BV1-OQ1-CC6=$8874

I'm sure RM may say I misinterpreted the spreadsheet, but the key is to determine the Original Quality of the guns (in this example).

Ken

The above post is the extreme end of the spectrum. The original gun needed to be sleeved (deemed unsafe). If the barrels are shootable, but borderline (define that please) then the Current Condition is closer to 4 or 5. I assume borderline is greater than 18 thou towards the barrel muzzles and nothing too severe in the first 9 inches of the barrel.

Borderline shootable barrels Boss Best SLE: BV1-OQ1-CC4.5=$13,980.

RM's CC codes:

1 Pristine = top one or two gun(s) of one hundred like guns
2 Limited use - slight finish wear, little shooting
3 Significent use
4 Heavy use, but no abuse
5 Minor repairs needed or proper restoration accomplished
6 Shootable but needs some repairs and refinishing or refinished with barrels or stock replaced
7 Shootable but needs expensive repairs or restored with stock and barrels replaced
8 Marginally shootable, significent repairs required soon or poor restoration
9 Unshootable without major repairs/wallhanger

Ken

KDGJ, You did a fine job of using my charts as they are intended. First, we need keep in mind that the charts give a sorta starting place value. Value is a recommendation. Price is an amount of money that a willing and able buyer agrees to give an equally able and willing seller. Many factors may influence price that are unknowable to the value charts.

Michael, we need to know the CC of the rest of the gun. Guns that would have higher value except for the barrels are much better candidates for sleeving than are low value guns.

Sleeving is for barrels that are non-repairable. This condition may be from wear or from an accident. A high condition gun is unlikely to have worn barrels. So, a high condition gun with sleeved barrels is most likely to have met with an accident. Properly sleeved, such a gun returns to being a reliable long term shooter. On the other hand, a low condition gun likely has worn barrels and has had alotta lead down the pipes. That means there are likely a number of breakages on the horizon. Sleeving a worn out Boss does not get you highly servicable gun. The only way to approach a worn gun is to make sure it is purchased at a price that allows all wear, including those worn barrels, to be set right.

Dig Hadoke opined in his first book that a best work gun with worn out barrels and stock can be had for little enough money to allow new barrels (not sleeved), a new stock, and all action functions set right for something like $20,000. His point is that you then have near new best work gun with barrels and stock to your fit for a somewhat affordable price. I'm going to start a new thread to discuss a case on this point.

DDA

KDGJ and Rocketman,

Thank you...this is the thrust that I've been looking for.

JP

Different Strokes for Different Folks, I suppose. Seeing the joint line in a sleeved or Mono-Blocked set of barrels never bothered me as long as it was neatly done. Would just as soon see the seam as to have the needed "Heat" applied to weld which is about the only method of having a truly invisible seam. I "personally" don't like welding heat applied to that area of a barrel.

That's the problem with attempting to assign some percentage of added or reduced value to a gun that has been sleeved. So much of it depends upon the quality of the workmanship. Someone posted a photo of a sleeved gun here recently that had a very visible joint that was still very evident despite the ugly chicken scratch engraving that was applied over the joint in an attempt to conceal it. At the other end of extremes is this .405 Winchester double rifle built on a Simson shotgun action by the late Bob Hynden:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=439017#Post439017

I also agree with Miller about having a concern over the HAZ (Heat Affected Zone) in an area where pressures are still very high in sleeved guns where TIG welding is used in place of solder or brazing. No question that guns done that way have the most undetectable sleeving joint, but there is no way to post anneal without also melting the brazing of the barrel lugs and stubs. I know barrel steel isn't high enough carbon to become brittle from air quenching during cooling, but I'd like to see some actual pressure testing of the two methods to know for sure.