I've had my 470ne sabatti double 4mos now, love the gun.

Am looking at a .450ne, and wondering how much difference there is? It is by Ernst Kerner Suhl.

I reload for other .458's ( 45-70, 458 winmag/Lott ), so that is a plus.

Thanks.

While obviously the cartridges (eg, .450/500, 470, 475 No 2,...)are not interchangeable from practical standpoint there is no difference (slug of 480gr to 500gr with avg Vo of 2100+/-100fps), but before you buy any NE express rifle make sure ammunition and or components for reloading are readily available. A "wall-hanger" is worth a lot less than rifle that can be shot and used in the field.

ChristopherB, I have no idea how much time you spend reading here but with just 23 posts, perhaps not much.

Don't pay any attention to the posting of Jagermeister. He is our resident troll, compelled to post on any and all subjects, yet with no real experience with either double guns or rifles. Just what he can find from the net and regurgitate here.

You may get some constructive advice here but I would also recommend the Nitro Express forums.

What did Canuck say?

ChristopherB, Canvasback is giving you good advice.

Some can help on this Forum but Nitro Express forum really is the place for double rifle enthusiasts.

I would rate "Double Rifles, Paradox Guns, Gauge Rifes,...." of this site equal to NitroExpress.com.

If you want good answers AccurateReloading.com BigBore section is the place to ask. I have been member for years and there are many very knowledgeable guys there.

Up front let me say I have no experience with either. According to Taylor
(Ponderosa)"(Pondora)" in his book African Rifles & Cartridges there is virtually no difference in the ballistics, thus usefulness of these two rounds along with several others. At one point in time any rifle in .45 caliber became illegal as a "Military" caliber in some locations thus a proliferation of other calibers to take the place of the .450NE. This included the .470NE as well as .465's & some others. They pretty well all served the same purpose. Taylor though highly of them all incidentally.

I thought the Ponderosa was the place little Joe, Hoss and Adam called home.......

Thanks for the replies guys, ill try to go take a look for the nitro express forums as well.

Hey Jagermeister, why don't you tell us about your experience with Double Rifles, and which calibers you use. Oh wait... I almost forgot... you don't own any Double Rifles, and you don't own any double shotguns either. You're one of those strange pathetic guys we hear about who live an imaginary life on the internet.

OK then, why don't you just tell us about something real that you are actually familiar with, such as your toy stuffed animal collection. I would love to see another picture of your little furry friends. So cute!

You don't do anything weird with them, do you?... as if a grown man with a toy stuffed animal collection isn't a little suspicious to begin with.

not defending anyone but double rifles are pretty rarefied atmosphere. I assume most of us don't have too much if any experience with them.
I have plenty of shotguns some nicer than others but when we talk things like Purdeys and Hollands with regulated bores or Paradox guns, I'm out...I have a mortgage and stuff.
But please share that's really cool stuff

It was, I stand corrected. Taylor's "Handle" was "Pondora", hope I spelled it right this time. I have a copy of that book but didn't look it up for proper term. I can't remember Taylor's first name for sure, I believe it was John, someone correct this if that is the wrong name. I know a John Taylor so that combination may just be ringing a bell with me. Pondora did have a enough experience at killing Elephants I would be inclined to listen to what he had to say.

I suggest that you ask your question at this website: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/760101804 in lieu of Nitro Express as this website has much more activity. Someone in response to your question is likely to give you some historical data about the .470NE development due to the British ban on .450 calibers in some of the colonies. Is your .450 the .450 NE or the .450 #2 NE?

I was just teasing, I knew what you meant. You were close enough on the spelling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_%22Pondoro%22_Taylor

keitH, I can't see what you wrote. I'm 100% sure you have added nothing of value to this topic.

Let me help original poster.

.470NE 75 grains Cordite 500grains 2125fps
.450-3&1/4"NE 70 grains 480gr 2150fps.

For more info I have recommended wonderful forums of AccurateReloading.com.

PondorO means lion in
Chinyungwe.

In response to bushveld.

I dont own the .450 yet, just looking.( long distance at that ) Owner says it is a late 30's gun, and just calls it .450NE, doesn't mention a #2.

I'll go back and re check his email to see if I missed details, thanks.

To those mentioning accuratereloading, ill go take a look.

Christopher;
For your data bank: Early in the life of the original .450 NE there was case extraction problems and these problems were enough to where one of the cartridge makers in England developed the .450 #2 NE that was a bottle necked cartridge and did not have the extraction problems. I seem to recall that the .450 #2 NE has lower chamber pressure than the the original cartridge.

ChristopherB,
Kerner was a known German gunmaker. There were several variations of 450s, it would be important to know which variation it is. The different variations differ mostly in case length. If the Gun is a 1930s German Gun, the case length should be shown in the proofmarks, together with the bore(not groove or bullet)diameter, both in mm. If pre 1912, case length will not be shown, and bore diameter will be shown in gauge measurement(maybe 51,05). It would help if you could post photos of all markings. A crown over E, if present, designates Express proof.The 450#2 was not popular in Germany and has a larger head diameter.
Mike

Thanks, ill see about getting some pictures.

My question would be why would the OP want details on the difference between the .470 NE and the .450 NE.

Both rounds do essentially the same thing.

In today's world, the .470 is much more common, both in terms of loaded ammunition and in terms of loading components. However, the .450 is not hard to provide for either.

Obviously, if you are considering the .450 you are approaching it more as a collector than as a hunter. If you acquire it you will have two dangerous game double rifles, either of which would serve you well. I am of that vein. I have numerous dangerous game rifles.

So if you are a collector, buy the rifle if it appeals to you. The .450 NE is a great round. If you would like to see mine, have a look here: http://rbsiii.com/collection/rifles/gibbs_450/

Curl

Is this it? https://www.gunbroker.com/item/758260490

To captcurl:

Mostly the .450NE caught my eye due to it being .458

I already reload for ( and cast ) for other .458 . 45-70, 458 winmag, 458 Lott. So that would be a plus.

That said, I'm certainly guilty of owning guns just to collect them, or because I like the lines, etc.

Yes, that and another one at a similar auction site.

While it looks like it was probably originally built as a double rifle due to the reinforced frame, I am wondering if it has been rebarreled for some reason. You can see the band of engraving which is doing a not so good job of concealing a rather prominent sleeving joint. The barrel blue also looks to be a bit darker ahead of this joint.

I would do some homework to try to determine whether the gun is original, or if it has been sleeved, rebarreled, or perhaps even built on a shotgun action. I'm also curious when it was built because the engraving looks laser cut.

Thanks. I have more questions out to the owner.

Some follow up.

The good news, turns out I had been registered on accurate reloading a few years ago, must have forgotten. My phone still remembered the username/login info even.

The bad news. I can't create new posts or reply, even when signed in.

I've emailed the site owner and the contact us link for technical assistance a few times now. No reply at all. Which doesn't instill me with confidence about the site.

I got out my John "Pondoro" Taylor book. He gives the .450NE as giving a 480 grain bullet 2150 Fps with a pressure of 17 tons for a ME of 4930 foot lbs & his "knock-out value of 66.3.
He gives the .470NE as giving a 500 grain bullet 2125 FPS with 14 tons pressure & ME of 5,030 Ft lbs & knockout value of 71.3.

From a practical standpoint for use there is little to chose between the two. He does advise when purchasing a rifle to be certain that ammunition will be readily available for it. On this basis I suspect the .470 is the better choice as well as it operates at lower pressure, as I understand it a factor not to be ignored for use in the hot climates of Africa, although 17 tons is not considered excessive for that use. Taylor becomes concerned when the pressure rises to around 20 tons, especially with the British Cordite powder with which most of these cartridges were originally loaded. Apparently it was rather sensitive to high temps.

Yes, the lower pressure is attractive. .470ne ammo is readily available$$$, ..450, less so, except that I am already setup to make (.458 ) if needed.

Thanks for the information.