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Posted By: Calin Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 10:05 AM
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 10:34 AM
Although interesting, there lies pure evil.
Posted By: damascus Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 11:33 AM
Not exactly a top of the range gun is it? Though anything finer would be akin to "Cast pearls before swine."
Posted By: fuhrmann Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 12:01 PM
A relatively plain French shotgun,
with engraving on the barrel
"For the successful sniper" and Heinis signature
further embellished with some eagle / swastika stamp on the stock.

Might this be an idea to sell a plain French shotgun at a higher price - added value selling??
Posted By: canvasback Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 12:03 PM
and the point is......???
Posted By: fuhrmann Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 12:06 PM
Originally Posted By: canvasback
and the point is......???


either it's a fake
or who would like to own anything the swine touched??
Posted By: canvasback Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 12:12 PM
Originally Posted By: fuhrmann
Originally Posted By: canvasback
and the point is......???


either it's a fake
or who would like to own anything the swine touched??


I'm with you on that, fuhrmann, but I was really asking a question. The OP has been a member for 6 months and had just 11 posts and now he posts a series of Nazi gun photos with no commentary or question. So what's the point, Calin?
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 12:16 PM
Expect he's looking for comments. Odd that such a plain gun would have ended up in Himmler's possession.
Originally Posted By: fuhrmann
Originally Posted By: canvasback
and the point is......???


either it's a fake
or who would like to own anything the swine touched??


I agree with the sentiment ....... but I have a much higher opinion of pigs than Nazis.

SRH
Posted By: fuhrmann Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 12:21 PM
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Expect he's looking for comments. Odd that such a plain gun would have ended up in Himmler's possession.


Not in his possesion.
Assuming the dedication inscript is true and correct,
he aqwarded it to some soldier / sniper or maybe the winner of a shooting contest.
Posted By: Calin Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 12:33 PM
Yes is Tru i think " That Shotgun is a gift from Himmler for The Best Sniper
Posted By: Calin Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 12:35 PM
But i would like more information about this Shotgun
Why is from France and have proof from Suhl German stampel
I don't know I think Suhl hawe Testet the Shotgun
Posted By: Jpari Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 12:54 PM
Not being one who speaks or reads German, can someone translate the German text for me please?
Posted By: Calin Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 12:55 PM
I'm sorry for my bad English " smile
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 01:05 PM
V-C platform & repair/reproof in 1941. Post an image of the marks forward on the tubes. Worry not about your English.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: fuhrmann Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 01:22 PM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
V-C platform & repair/reproof in 1941. Post an image of the marks forward on the tubes. Worry not about your English.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse


Just to expand Raimey's message a bit:
V-C platform is Verney-Carron, I think. Well-known French company.
There are French proof marks, of which I am no expert.
Raimey will know more.
Further German proof marks from July 1941 (741), J with eagle - Instandsetzungsbeschuss / repair proof, another one I do not recognize, then caliber markings 17,0 and 17,1 - 16 gauge, and 65 mm shell length.
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 01:24 PM
Its part of our history though, a gruesome chapter but history just the same.
Posted By: ed good Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 02:10 PM
this thread is disturbing to me...hopefully, it will be removed from this fine forum...
Posted By: old colonel Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 02:13 PM
The story of the gun might be interesting, but likely not knowable to a high level of confidence.

That said like others I have already said Himmler and company were evil at best and I doubt many pure gun guys would want anything to do with it.

However, there are many collectors of NAZI stuff who are not NAZI's themselves and would like it for that reason. I can't explain the NAZI collectors, nor condemn them, I just would not want anything to do with it.
Posted By: Calin Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 02:16 PM
V-C Verney Carron " i hawe written email To Verney Carron and hawe tould me
Ist not " Verney Carron that Shotgun .For Verney Carron , it's impossible , because all shottgun made by us was stamped "Verney Carron" . For me to , it is not the right mecanism of lock , because the locks of Verney is a 4 locks not 3 .
Posted By: canvasback Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 02:17 PM
Originally Posted By: ed good
this thread is disturbing to me...hopefully, it will be removed from this fine forum...


Ed, the fact that the subject is distasteful for all of us is no reason to censor it by removal. My initial question was the result of pictures only, no questions. The OP has followed up. The questions are reasonable. Let it play out.
Posted By: ed good Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 02:21 PM
canvas: its just creepy...
Posted By: pooch Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 02:28 PM
I'd want more providence then the Himmler signature. Himmler using a plain French gun doesn't make a lot of sense.
Never understood the interest or fascination with this stuff. You can't go to a gun show here in Virginia without seeing at least one table of this junk, both artifact and fake....
Posted By: canvasback Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 02:33 PM
I would tend to agree with pooch. I think it's been faked mostly because I doubt the Nazis would use a French gun.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 03:03 PM

Can you post an image of the marks to the right of Rectifie C.A. & 17,1mm & 17,0mm? That might point to a maker.

True, I don't really think it is a bona fide VC, but it utilizes VC designs used by oh so many St. Etienne - Stéphanos makers. Then again VC really doesn't know their own history in detail.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Calin Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 03:39 PM
Who can tell me any valuation for that Shotgun "
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 04:12 PM
Didn't one of the above posts point out that the gun was marked as having been presented to a soldier by Himmler; not used by him. I saw a scoped mod.98 Mauser in an Alabama Gun Collectors gun show, that was also marked as being presented by Himmler to a soldier. I can't confirm the truth of either inscription, but find them historically interesting.
Mike
Posted By: old colonel Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 04:16 PM
Originally Posted By: OldMaineWoodsman
Never understood the interest or fascination with this stuff. You can't go to a gun show here in Virginia without seeing at least one table of this junk, both artifact and fake....


Concur, which between excessive Black Gun stuff is why I rarely go to Gun Shows in Kansas
Posted By: old colonel Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 04:16 PM
Without the engraved signature maybe $600-$1200. What the engraved signature adds is very subjective.


As a item for collectors of NAZI stuff I have no idea, but definitely more than the value to a collector of classic guns
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 04:34 PM
Unless you can proove it was associated with that sick bastard, and prove it, then the value is that of a French Guild gun. Good condition 500-700. Now if you can find a newspaper article with photo showing that sick bastard presenting that gun to some nazi "hero" some Nazi memorabilia collector might pay a lot more.

The person that was given to was not a famous or high ranking person. For that they never would have used a French Guild gun. It would have been a German made gun for propaganda reasons.
Posted By: montenegrin Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 05:35 PM
They would never use a French gun?
I think they would, as a war trophy from the recent Blitzkrieg in France. They must have plundered wagons of them. And re-proofed them to show they don't trust the French.
What I think could be suspicius with this piece is the Luftwaffe eagle on the stock, like the one on the famous pilot's drilling by Sauer.

With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: felix Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 05:53 PM
Gents,
someone with the anonymous name of Calin is trying to use
your experience/skill/goodwill to test the market/price-evaluate a
Nazi-collectors object of a gun with either fake/not-fake/
WW II-booty /characteristics.
I recommend he should contact Hermann Historica in Germany.
They are trading with such stuff.
Sincerely
Felix Neuberger
Posted By: gunsaholic Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 06:19 PM
Originally Posted By: felix
Gents,
someone with the anonymous name of Calin is trying to use
your experience/skill/goodwill to test the market/price-evaluate a
Nazi-collectors object of a gun with either fake/not-fake/
WW II-booty /characteristics.
I recommend he should contact Hermann Historica in Germany.
They are trading with such stuff.
Sincerely
Felix Neuberger


I am under the impression as well that likely the real purpose of this thread is to find a value, which I guess there is nothing wrong with. Whether the OP is buying or selling is unclear.
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 07:37 PM
A Unnamed French gun. They would used one for a minor "person". But for some big shot I doubt it. Now if the gun was Louie 16's personal gun maybe. All that gun is to me is a Guild gun which there were a million of them that was confiscated with the occupation and sent back to Germany. It was repaired and then got German proof marks because of the work. Perhaps the work was nothing more than being engraved with that sick b. Signature.

As to being faked, who knows. If fake Nazi marking are as common as fake Wells Fargo markings then anything is possible. To me that gun does not seem to have any direct connection with H. but was most likely used as a gift from his office to some minor official. Perhaps a mayor who sucked up to him. Perhaps a SS trooper who killed 50 Russians with his bare hands or worse. It was for sure not a gift to him.
Posted By: lagopus Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 08:53 PM
The engraving inscription on the barrels looks a tad fresh to me and not the product of 70 year's wear. Although I am only going by a photo. Mind you I was born suspicious. His mate Herman Goering was a big hunting buff and had an impressive gun collection. It would need provable provenance to be worth anything. In England as a plain non-ejector gun like that it would be lucky to make £100 to £150. Lagopus.....
Posted By: Calin Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 10:04 PM
Thanks all for the Comments I would like more Information about that Shotgun "
And a little History "
I hawe buyet that Shotgun from old man from Germany
I don't know more information "
Pooch posted
Quote:
I'd want more providence then the Himmler signature.
Amen to that.

Because there are lunatics still amongst us who are both gullible and in funds, NAZI memorabilia of all sorts commands very high prices. The vast majority of such "memorabilia" is the work of fakers, forgers, duckers and divers, having large and busy manufactories supplying a flourishing market.

Remember "The Hitler Diaries"? And the "Hitler Pictures"?

Have a shufti at this one ... only $26,000 to you Sir; another French gun with impeccable provenance ... laugh HH must have cornered the market in this stuff.





http://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/64/3321

The first reaction I have on seeing this sort of stuff isn't "Is it genuine?" so much as "What solid evidence exists that shows this isn't a fake?"

Eug
Actually, sharp shooter is the slightly more accurate translation. A sniper with a cheap French made side-by-side- like Wild Bill Hickok with a pair of cap pistols instead of his 1851 Colt Navy pistols-- The German Eagle and Swastika are not correct either, and as Himmler hated the French almost as much as he hated those of the Jewish faith, to present him with a double shotgun with French steel markings instead of Krupp Flusstahl- a real "sock in the kisser"--This smells like a bogus deal to me. Der Fuchs.
RWTF,

Wouldn't it be nice if some Jewish Frenchman, an engraver, is currently sunning himself on the Riviera and laughing his socks off?

Eug
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/18/17 11:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Calin
V-C Verney Carron " i hawe written email To Verney Carron and hawe tould me
Ist not " Verney Carron that Shotgun .For Verney Carron , it's impossible , because all shottgun made by us was stamped "Verney Carron" . For me to , it is not the right mecanism of lock , because the locks of Verney is a 4 locks not 3 .


Calin, the "4 locks" on a Verney is relatively new. Older ones had a different action. This one does appear to be an "Helice" gun. But if it were made by V-C, it would have both their name and one of the variations of "Helice"--likely on the top lever--that they had trademarked. Since this gun has none of those, it's simply some other St. Etienne maker's knockoff, using what appears to be the Helice action.
Posted By: Judge Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/19/17 12:14 AM
Yuck. I would burn it.
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/19/17 12:47 AM
Well the Germans used captured French tanks.
Something about that "signature" engraving just doesn't look right to me. If I was a WWII collector I would pass on this. It is too suspicious.

SRH
Mazeltof!
Ja-- For the Sharpshooter--RWTF. A joke, as Himmler was bat-shit blind- he had the real "coke bottle" sized lenses for his astigmatism-- Hermann Goering, a WW1 ace combat flier with 28 confirmed kills- including some Allied balloons and bombers, had eagle-eye vision, was a crack marksman and avid hunter-and gun collector. Himmler, as head of the dreaded SS (Hitler's guard unit) was given decorated firearms by those who wanted to curry favor, but he was never the hunter that old "Fat Boy" Hermann Goering was.
Originally Posted By: eugene molloy
Pooch posted
Quote:
I'd want more providence then the Himmler signature.
Amen to that.

Because there are lunatics still amongst us who are both gullible and in funds, NAZI memorabilia of all sorts commands very high prices. The vast majority of such "memorabilia" is the work of fakers, forgers, duckers and divers, having large and busy manufactories supplying a flourishing market.

Remember "The Hitler Diaries"? And the "Hitler Pictures"?

Have a shufti at this one ... only $26,000 to you Sir; another French gun with impeccable provenance ... laugh HH must have cornered the market in this stuff.





http://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/64/3321

The first reaction I have on seeing this sort of stuff isn't "Is it genuine?" so much as "What solid evidence exists that shows this isn't a fake?"

Eug


It is what some call JABC, but because of high original condition in USA gun like that will set you back about $600 to $800. If I wanted good knockabout from Belgium it would be old vintage "keeper grade" Auguste Francotte. Those are equal to British Webley & Scott 700s series.

The one in original pics is about $350 item. If I was into Nazi paraphernalia which I'm not I would want some reference in credible literature that such guns were given as trophies/awards of merit. If that is so I would be willing to pay 50% premium over similar gun w/o extra stamping/etchings.
In Russia, lots of people collect Nazy stuff and explain it as "we've kicked their ass, now we keep their shit as trophies". Sort of like feudal barons used to hang on the walls of their castles the swords and shields of the knights they'd killed or defeated at tournament. Arguably, this trophy keeping indicates a respect for one's enemy, and it's a big question whether such respect for the Nazis is appropriate.

While the jury's out on it - To the gun.

Surely this is not a gift TO Himmler, but it could be a prize given to the winner of some shooting contest, etc. I hope the shooting contest was not "who can execute the most Jews or Communists per hour", of course.

Now here's my train of thought.

If such contests with such prises were routine, then there had to be hundreds of guns like that. Not all would survive the post-1945 years; I think anyone here would've dumped such "prize" into the nearest bog.

But, that would mean there was a whole bureaucracy about that.

Of course Himmler himself would have nothing to do with such a gun; the bureaucrats would just pick anything they could lay their hands on, slap on the inscription and tie it with a ribbon, or whatever.

And, this bureaucracy couldn't get without a paper trail. There would be records about who was given what gun on what occasion. Again, not all such records perhaps survived - e.g., if the contest in question was among the troops stationed in France, after liberation the French couldve just used them for toiled paper or burned.

But historians of SS couldn't leave such contests unnoticed. So, if I cared a bit about this piece of metal, I'd try to read up on the relevant history. Would add credibility to the story, if anything.

Have I already told the one about Trotsky and giving guns as gifts here?
Originally Posted By: Calin
Who can tell me any valuation for that Shotgun "


Our board expert on items like this is Italian SxS aka JamesM. I would PM him for his assessment on this item.
Posted By: damascus Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/19/17 12:30 PM
After some considerable thought, the value of the gun is approximately the low value of the Nazi Third Reich Coins in my hand from the time.

Posted By: ellenbr Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/19/17 12:59 PM
Yeah, it should realize a base value of $450 U.S. of A. plus or minus whatever someone will attach/fork over for the Nazi chicken scratching.

Has the fella/owner in Germany any history on the lot?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Good one, Raimey- as old Heinrich was a chicken farmer before he joined Adolph and his henchmen--both he and Goering escaped the hangman's noose, via cyanide capsules. The British were sharp enough to spot the weak chin and the thick glasses, as he tried to pass himself off as a Wehrmacht Pvt.. Every once in a while, RIA auctions will list Nazi "party leaders" items- pistols, presentation grade drillings, etc. Hard to authenticate, IMO.
Posted By: Dave K Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/19/17 02:05 PM
Here is one that was auctioned off at RIA-simmilar but with a better story:

http://www.craiggottlieb.com/engine/inspect.asp?Item=4656&Filter=Gallery

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/64/3321
Posted By: Ger Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/19/17 04:10 PM
"Dem erfolgreichen Schützen"
"To the successfull sniper." That means this shotgun was a gift from Heinrich Himmler, leader of the SS, to a soldier.
These guns are very often shown in auctions, all are fakes with a lot of faked marks, e.g. LW5 on the rear barrel hook lock, the air force mark on the stock, proof mark of Suhl etc. Only the marks of proof house St. Etienne, France are genuine.
Ger
RIA doesn't know Nazi history=Himmler was head of the SS (proletarian guard) literal translation, including the Waffen SS, which were Army units, and Der Totenkopf- "Death's Head" units which were mainly involved in the strum und drang of the Holocaust in Europe. Goering was one of the first SS members, along with Hess and Himmler, and he developed the Gestapo (secret police unit) of the SS- I am sure Himmler had his grubby fist in Gestapo affairs as well, but he was NOT the head of that evil sector of Hitler's paranoia.

True, the 101st. (506 PIR) units did capture Hitler's mountain retreat in Bavaria in 1945, and found a great deal of items and artifacts- but fresh plaster on the wall and a Heinrich Himmler POS Belgian double as his presentation gun- Why would Himmler stash it in Hitler's house- by then, he and Goering were both trying to sell out to the Allies, and escape Hitler's last days mandate to "destroy Germany"--

And if RIA got $25,000 for this "fraud"-something is rotten in Rock Island IL with that-very strange indeed..
Posted By: Ger Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/19/17 04:23 PM
>>>Can you post an image of the marks to the right of Rectifie C.A. & 17,1mm & 17,0mm? That might point to a maker.<<<

Raimey,
to the right of 17,1 and 17,0 are the proof marks of St. Etienne and the name, written in letters. Together with PT under crown on the left are the only genuine marks on this faked shotgun and it's not only this.
Ger
Originally Posted By: Ger
"Dem erfolgreichen Schützen"
"To the successfull sniper." That means this shotgun was a gift from Heinrich Himmler, leader of the SS, to a soldier.
These guns are very often shown in auctions, all are fakes with a lot of faked marks, e.g. LW5 on the rear barrel hook lock, the air force mark on the stock, proof mark of Suhl etc. Only the marks of proof house St. Etienne, France are genuine.
Ger


The whole idea of makes zero sense to me. I mean why have military decorations like Iron Cross of different classes, Iron Cross in Gold, Oak Leaves, Swords and giving out French or Belgian clunkers to good soldiers. I'm not buying into this.
Posted By: Dave K Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/19/17 04:34 PM
" Camouflage uniforms were standard and new sophisticated weapons and equipment was available in huge numbers although there was some trouble with meeting the demands of sniper rifles. Heinrich Himmler, himself very interested in sharpshooting, had early set up sniper programs for the Waffen SS. During the latter part of 1944 the numbers of snipers were also to increase within the grenadier- and volksgrenadier companies."

http://www.axishistory.com/axis-nations/...n-normandy-1944

Another more common gun-Sniper Award
Sauer 38H

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUkM1cmSurU
The Sauer 38H's go for a good bit more perhaps the known provenance of others given.

http://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/68/1400


The $80,500 for that pistol is truly shocking when one realizes that Winston Churchills personal Webley pistol at English auction brought in <£6000. I forget if it was 7,65 or 9mm Court.
Posted By: montenegrin Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/19/17 05:41 PM
That's why USA is the best place to sell smile

Cheers,
Jani
or, maybe 9mm Kurz? I agree with another contributor, giving ein Scharfschuetzen soldat a cheap crappy double shotgun as a reward for sniping Allied personnel, just doesn't seem "Korrekt". If you go back to the first fotos, look at the milling marks on the side of the barrel lug- the foto with the gun broken open.

Easy to forge a script signature, such as Himmler's,even all of the Nazi thugs of that era. I would be very suspicious of this offering, and provenance would be very difficult. But still, there are TV shows about folks trying to find Hitler in SA, as the Mosad did with Adolph Eichmann in 1960--
I'm not bashing Ed, in fact, I like Ed. But I don't understand this kind of hysteria associated with a Nazi (fake?) artifact. My dad was a tail gunner in a B-17 and I grew up around soldiers of both sides. Everybody talked freely about Hitler and the war. Heck the History channel, believe it or not, once showed history programs and a lot of them were about the Nazis. I even owned a P-38 with Nazi proofs and I never found it disturbing. Are people just making comments like this because they feel it will increase their socio-political standing? Please explain.
Originally Posted By: ed good
this thread is disturbing to me...hopefully, it will be removed from this fine forum...
Posted By: David Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/20/17 03:57 AM
When I was in college, there was a german professor whose grandfather had served in WWI and whose father was drafted during WWII. They were not Nazi. She told a story of when her father received news of his draft, he asked his father what he should do. His father, the WWI veteran said, "do your duty, and surrender to the first American you find." Germany at the time had multiple political parties and power would get scattered. In order to form a government a party would have to form a coalition. That is how Hitler came to power. He had somewhere in the neighborhood of 30% of the vote with the opposition scattered among several other parties. Certainly not all German people supported the direction their country went. It is never a good idea to ignore history.
Posted By: Judge Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/20/17 05:09 AM
To answer IM's question, most folks don't have a problem with war trophies -- it's the (supposed) personal connection to Himmler that makes this one objectionable IMO.
Posted By: Ger Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/20/17 07:08 AM
>>>Goering was one of the first SS members<<<
Never he was a member of SS, he was one of the founder of SA in 1922, Himmler was a member of SA since 1925 and changes Aug. 1925 to SS.
>>>but he was NOT the head of that evil sector of Hitler's paranoia.<<<
Certain, he was!

>>>True, the 101st. (506 PIR) units did capture Hitler's mountain retreat in Bavaria in 1945, and found a great deal of items and artifacts- but fresh plaster on the wall and a Heinrich Himmler POS Belgian double as his presentation gun- Why would Himmler stash it in Hitler's house- by then, he and Goering were both trying to sell out to the Allies, and escape Hitler's last days mandate to "destroy Germany"--<<<

The guard of Obersalzberg belongs all to the SS ( e.g. SS-Wachkompanie 9 ) and Himmler was direct the leader. Therefore it's possible that one of this soldiers has got this shotgun as a gift for good sniping from Himmler. Between the gun of the RIA auction and the fake in this thread is a difference in engraving and signature of Himmler. The signature is in Suetterlin (normal in this time) and the e (its like latin n) on the fake is missing.
Posted By: Calin Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/20/17 07:37 AM
Hi Ger

what do you mean 'gun is a fake?
I'm sorry I'm not expert "
It would like more information "
Thanks a lot

Kind Regards
Posted By: Ken61 Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/20/17 11:12 AM
Originally Posted By: Run With The Fox
or, maybe 9mm Kurz?


Do you mean 8mm Kruz? Like for the MP44?

The Krauts must have had thousands of these confiscated French shotguns. Why not give them away? It appears normal to me that they reproofed'em first, wasn't that normal for French and Belgian guns sold in Germany?

I can also imagine GIs picking through the piles of confiscated guns and picking out the ones will Himmler's signature. Of course, it also would be easy to replicate nowadays for false provenance purposes.

Regards
Ken
Originally Posted By: Run With The Fox
or, maybe 9mm Kurz?


It was either 7,65 Browning or 9x17mm aka 9mm Browning aka 9mm Kurz. Anyhow the price realized for Sir Winston's semi-auto Webley was only £5500 plus commission which is deeply emotionally disturbing when Nazi inspired trophy gun can bring over $80,000.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/20/17 12:47 PM
Ken, either the Germans missed a bunch or else reproof was uncommon on the ones they confiscated. Quite a few French doubles floating around in this country, reported to have been war souvenirs collected by the GI's, without reproof. Matter of fact, I'd say a French gun with a German reproof is a pretty rare critter.

I often wondered whether the first classic sxs I ever owned--pre-WWII Sauer 16--might not have been brought home by a GI. None of the standard indications of a gun having been made for export. So probably a good chance it came home in someone's dufflebag, or else maybe was purchased by a GI in Germany at some point after the war.
Posted By: Ken61 Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/20/17 01:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Jagermeister
Originally Posted By: Run With The Fox
or, maybe 9mm Kurz?


It was either 7,65 Browning or 9x17mm aka 9mm Browning aka 9mm Kurz. Anyhow the price realized for Sir Winston's semi-auto Webley was only £5500 plus commission which is deeply emotionally disturbing when Nazi inspired trophy gun can bring over $80,000.


Does this mean that 9mm Parabellum was the same as 9mm Kurz and 9mm Browning? Also, I thought 7.65 Browning was the same as 32 ACP? Just trying to expand my pistol knowledge...

Thanks
Ken
Not sure how long the agreement went, but guns from countries with internationally recognized proof house do not need to undergo re-proof when sold in country that has their own proof house. For example if you find old German shotgun completed in Germany between the wars it will have just Thuringen proof and "not English made" or "not English make" but no Birmingham or London proof, yes? In addition to that guns that are brought in for reason other than commercial sales to the public do not need to go to commercial proof house. Example of those would be West German police guns like the PSP. Modern example would be Soviet Makarov that ended up in West Germany or post unification Germany. Those sold to the public will carry commercial German proof marks those used outside of that purpose will not.
Posted By: Hoot4570 Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/20/17 01:23 PM
Originally Posted By: Ken61
Does this mean that 9mm Parabellum was the same as 9mm Kurz and 9mm Browning? Also, I thought 7.65 Browning was the same as 32 ACP? Just trying to expand my pistol knowledge...

Thanks
Ken


9x17=9mm Browning=9mm Kurtz=9mm Corto=.380ACP (and probably a few other names.)
9mm Parabellum=9x19=9mm Luger
9x18 Makarov is a totally different bullet diameter (~.363" vs. ~.356" for the first two)

Oh yes, the 7.65 is a .32ACP
Posted By: Ger Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/20/17 02:33 PM
>>>what do you mean 'gun is a fake?<<<
This guns are often seen at auctions and collector pages online.
This gun as shown in the thread has a lot of marks whitch don't have any correlation.
1.On the bascule are shown ACIER FIN, that means stainless steel, not true,
2.Medaille d'or =gold medal, but from where?
e.g. Medaille D'Or Paris will be right.
3. 1/39 is a proof date used in Germany, never in France, France was occupied in June 1940, St. Etienne belongs to the "Zone Libre", not occupied, therefore fake.
4. The sign LW5 and the eagle with swastika belongs to the German airforce.
5. When a gun was proofed in a foreign proof house like St. Etienne it don't need German proof marks.
etc., etc.
THIS GUN IS A COMPLETE FAKE!
A couple years ago the local-to-me Cabelas had a French 12 ga double go through the used gun rack, bearing similar German and French proofs but neither the alleged Himmler signature, the LW eagle, nor the award language. It was a nice gun overall and in nice shape. The German proofs were the Suhl proofhouse (like this gun's) and also dated 741. Additionally, it had a few "SuS" monograms stamped into the buttstock and, IIRC, the watertable or the flats.

I had two suppositions about that gun at that time. My one supposition was that the Germans had looted a number of French doubles and, prior to turning them loose into commerce in Germany, had them run through Sauer's hands and the Suhl proofhouse just to be sure. These guns are light to begin with. Their barrels tend to be lightly struck to pull that off, so belt-and-suspenders Germans would want their own proofs to make them more salable. An alternate supposition at that time was it was a "double GI bringback" - first brought back to Germany by a German soldier, then reproofed in Suhl for some bureaucratic reason now lost to time, then back to the USA in some troop's duffel.

In either case, that was a nice gun in good shape and a good match to my French 16, but Cabelas wanted $750 for it and I thought that a good $250-300 too high, especially since it too had 65mm chambers. So I passed and someone else got it.

Seeing this gun tells me I should favor the first of my suppositions - that the Germans looted a bunch of guns and shipped them home to supply their home market, done in an organized manner. The 741 proof date (on both this one and the one I saw) tells me they went through in a bunch. I would be willing to bet that the records of the Suhl proofhouse, if they still exist for that time, would reveal something along those lines.

I disagree a bit with the translation - Scharfschuetze is not necessarily "sniper". It can also mean simply "best shot" or in this context "high overall shooter". In the case of this gun, it's a nice, though generic, double which quite easily could have been given as a prize to the best shooter in some competition or other. The Luftwaffe eagle and swastika on the one hand and Himmler's alleged signature on the other seem a slightly odd juxtaposition. I can speculate any number of reasons why it wound up that way but in the end it doesn't really matter. I would bet the farm on it never having passed through Himmler's hands.

Not wanting to offend anyone by the comparison, knowing how sensitive - rightly - a lot of people are to Himmler, his acts and what he stood for but to give an example, is the presidential signature on your Eagle Scout diploma really real? Mine isn't.

Speaking for myself, if this gun didn't have the Himmler signature engraved and the swastika, I'd view this as a nice example of base model French 16 made into a presentation piece and I'd welcome it in my cabinet. At about $400 or so.
Ger's post immediately preceding mine came up while I was writing mine and he raises a good point - St. Etienne was in the Vichy "Zone Libre" (at least until the Germans invaded in '42). So the part of my supposition that guns such as this one (and the one I saw and wrote about) were looted doesn't hold up, assuming the gun went directly from the factory at St. Etienne to Germany in 1941.

OTOH, the supposition that the gun was looted and sent back to Germany does hold up if one assumes the gun was not in the factory but was instead somewhere in the Occupied Zone. Recall, St. Etienne guns were (and still are) sold throughout France. These guns could have been made any time prior to 1940-41. (The one I described above had chiseled breech balls which were on the way out by the late 30s.) One of the French experts here can correct me, but IIRC during Occupation the Germans banned all private possession of all firearms. These guns could have been looted from the Occupied Zone either from seizures of merchants' stock or from private individuals who complied with the Germans' decree and turned them in. And, making things happen being what it is, I can easily see it taking a year from the 1940 Armistice until the guns got to Germany and were reproofed.

Alternatively, the guns could have been in the St. Etienne factories and gone directly to Germany but without having been "looted". They could have been part of a barter transaction. Or a German manufacturer could have scooped them up for a bargain price after the makers' market in Occupied France evaporated and the maker was stuck with them. Wouldn't have been the first time....
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/20/17 03:23 PM
Hitler did have a place on the Obersalzberg, but Himmler, Goering and others also had houses lower down on the mountain, and support troops had facilities in the area. I spent many nights in one of these that had been taken over by US forces, and renamed "General Walker Hotel". The Rod and Gun Clubs had the annual Convention and Trophy Show there. When you see the area and understand the joy of victorious troops, it is easy to understand how items coming from Himmler's or Goering's house might be remembered as having come from Hitler's. It is also easy to understand how items might be traded between the troops and precise location of capture not be too important at the time. Also, I'm not convinced the inscription is to a "sniper"(in our understanding), but rather to a good "shot" or "shooter".
Mike
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/26/17 04:19 PM
Mike, I fear, they were really snipers..!

For those, who want to know more about the background of this presents an excerpt from a letter of Himmler to his cousin:

Mein lieber Max!

... Ich habe, wie Du vielleicht schon gehört hast, in der Armee den Einsatz der Scharfschützen mit allen Mitteln vorangetrieben ... Jeder Scharfschütze bekommt nach 50 bestätigten Abschüssen außer Urlaub eine Armbanduhr von mir überreicht, bei 100 Abschüssen ein Jagdgewehr oder eine Pistole oder auch ein gutes Fernglas. Kann mir Eure Firma für den Zweck in meiner Eigenschaft als Befehlshaber des Ersatzheeres 50 und später noch einmal 50 Stück solcher Ferngläser mit der Widmung: "Dem Scharfschützen -- H. Himmler" liefern? Ich wäre sehr froh darüber!

Translation:

Dear Max,

(...) Every sniper with 50 confirmed kills will receive holidays and from me a wrist watch, after 100 kills a hunting gun or a pistol or a good pair of binoculars. Is your company able to deliver to me acting in my capacity as the commander of the “Ersatzheer” (replacement Army ?) for this pupose 50 and later again 50 items of such pairs of binoculars with the presentation engraving "Dem Scharfschützen -- H. Himmler" ? I’d appreciate this very highly! (…)

all to find here:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=428921

Cheers,
Gunwolf, who does not like this old Nazi stuff...
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/26/17 10:19 PM
Gunwolf,
My first language is English, yours in German; I will defer to your understanding of the term.
Mike
Posted By: montenegrin Re: Shotgun Boss of Nazi Henrich Himmler - 01/27/17 12:14 AM
Now, this is an interesting piece of historic information, Gunwolf.

With kind regards,
Jani
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