I have to choose between two 9mm Luger sidearms a S&W 940 and Rohrbaugh R9.
The 940 is five-shot stainless revolver made on steel magnum J frame supplied with couple dozen star "moon clips". The R9 is sub-compact pistol with stainless slide and blackened alloy frame supplied with four six-shot magazines. Which one would you pick and why? Thank you.

What is your "need"?

All of them are collectible in one way or another. Personally, I've always wanted a Luger, just because, so I would tend to head that way. I already have a 9 emm-emm revolver in the form of a Ruger Speed Six so that itch has been scratched. The R9, I must admit to only knowing they exist and not much more.

I need close range defensive handgun. The way I see it the R9 has disadvantages of recoil spring replacement every 250 rounds and may not be totally reliable with all types of JHP bullets. The recoil spring is inexpensive, but now that Rohrbaugh is Remington I may not be able to get spare parts in the future. Not that weapon of this type will be shot a lot, but still availability of spare parts being there is reassuring. The revolver is heaver and thicker, but will likely be more reliable and it being 640 with 9x19 chambers parts will always be available as long as S&W will be in business.

If it's to be a "close range defensive handgun" do you really want to wonder when that spring will give out or it won't cycle because of ammo?

Is this supposed to be a "close range defensive handgun" for carry or for around the house?
It seems you're a bit stuck on 9mm. Why not a 38/357 revolver? Seems like that might be a good bit easier to reload.
The Luger would be cool but probably a lousy carry gun. (I can't think of anyone carrying one since The Man From U.N.C.L.E. went off the air.) Given the choices you've presented I'd go with the revolver.

Jag,
you should spend more time researching that terrorist protecting muslim you voted for then worrying about this silly crap !

Americans died and Obama./Cliton LIED !

i believe he is referring to caliber not maker

One salient fact about wheelguns- their springs are not under compression until the hammer is cocked (single action mode), or the trigger is pulled for double action firing. If you have any qualms about s recoil spring failing in your defensive handgun, don't screw around any further- get a Kimber 1911-A-1 series in .45ACP- and blow the living dogshit at CQC range any intruder who makes the mistake of breaking into your castle. I sleep every night with a similar piece in "locked, cocked and ready to rock" under my pillow-if trouble comes through my front door, well you can finish that scenario any way you wish to. RWTF

Get a Glock. The most outstanding, simple and reliable device ever made for slinging 9 mm rounds at bad guys. The S&W M&P is also excellent.
Modern 9 mm ammunition is excellent and many police departments are going back to the 9 mm as it is much easier to shoot than a .40 and is ballistically equivalent with the right ammo.
Jeff

Interestingly both you and HomelessJoe seem to rely on same brand of handgun.
I live in typical house. My two HD guns are Ithaca 37 Turkeyslayer w/skeet choke in 24" barrel with Winchester #1 BK @ 1250fps secondary weapon is Colt M45A1 loaded with low flash 230gr subsonic JHPs. What I need is advice on close quarters personal defensive handgun. Unfortunately there are just two choices S&W 940 or the R9.

Sorry, I misunderstood the original question. I thought two Lugers were involved hence my rather inane reply about 'collectability'.

So, my personal choice would be the S&W 940 with several loaded moon clips at the ready. It is the fastest way I know to reload a revolver. Nothing against the R9; it's an unknown to me and I'm just more of a revolver kind of guy. That said, I do own a handful of 1911's and I carry a Ruger LC9s. It's sometimes hard to figure out what all goes on in the squirrel cage of my head.

Is there a specific reason you have to choose between those tow guns? as in; they are offered to me for free or that's all you have etc?

You are asking a question akin to asking whats better a shovel or a broom. makes no sense since neither is similar. both do clean things up but are different tools.

to me, training is much more important than which pistol you end up with.
Formal training obtained through a recognized professional firearms instructor or school. not Billy Bob the "tactical guru" at the local gunshop who was deployed to Iraq as a truck driver or was involved in "black ops".

having spent the past almost 30 years as a student of the gun as a defensive and offensive tool and as a formally trained instructor, I have my own beliefs and opinions. and they are worth nothing. But I look at a few things when making a recommendation.
1. are you prepared to use deadly force?
2. are you willing to get professional training to effectively use a firearm for personal defense and understand the legal issues when carrying and using a firearm?

3. what is the environment in which you will most likely be carrying the firearm? on you , in a vehicle, in a home, in a business, or a combination.
4. will you be the only person using it?
5. will you train at least monthly (meaning will you shoot 100-200 rds a month to maintain proficiency?

once these questions are answered, I can start to make some recommendatioins.

on the surface, when asked the generic question of what is a good gun for self defense in the home? I ask what the person experience is.
I tell them that it isn't som much the firearm but the training and willingness to use it.
but , that being said,
for the average person who doesn't shoot much, has minimal training, in a revolver I recommend a Smith & Wesson Model 10 M&P 38 Special revolver or its stainless equivalent. with 158 gr semi wadcutter hollow points.
for a semi automatic, I recommend the !SIG P250 in 9mm with Speer 124 gr Gold dot HP. the P250 is a smooth light double action only auto pistol. It has about a 6lb double action pull, you have to deliberately pull it to make it go off.
at least 2 good flashlights and a cell phone.

other semis that are sufficient would be a Glock 17 or 19 , S&W M&P 9mm , SIG P320 9mm.

I know there are lots of "a 45 is the thing" crowd but if you don't shoot much, shot something that you will have a better chance of hitting with. the 9mm with modern expanding bullets is the standard. the FBI is dropping the 40 S&W for a number of reasons. see their report for the details
. The FBI is pretty much the burning bush when it comes to caliber choice; they have the forensics and the staff to collect, collate data to develop viable and practical conclusions.
The bottom line is shot placement and penetration.

There is no magic bullet.
when you hear that guy talk abut how the 45 is the only reliable stopper, ask him how many people he has shot or has seen shot with one. even the experts have all only witnessed a few shootings themselves. they rely on data like everyone else does. But you can read and see what has been collected and what the results are.


I used to be a 45 guy but I have evolved into carrying a Glock 19 with Speer 9mm 214gr +P Gold Dots.

this is the very short answer.

hope this helps and does not muddy the waters

Get the 940. Perfect for close up defense.

If I'm not mistaken, Jm may already have a bunch of odds and ends that fit the bill, or at least there're pictures. I'm sort hoping he comes back and thanks you for the thought out response.

If collectibility is at issue I have no idea on pistols, this is a double gun website.

If shooting someone is at issue previous posters hit much of what counts is whatyou shoot best. That said I shoot the 1911 .45 best, but have revolvers for home defense for the simple reason, less to go wrong.

Magazine springs left loaded over years weaken and feed although likely is not guaranteed. By comparison revolvers always work and in the situation of rapidly picking up and shooting I go with the higher probabilities of a revolver over Auto, especially an old Auto.

For planned social work, the 1911 is hard to beat.

My great uncle brought home a couple of Lugers from the war and used one of them to fend off 3 bad guys who tried to rob the gas station he worked at.Killed one outright and one other died later and one escaped.He swore by it and another relative has it yet.

"Jagermeister," my suggestions are similar to those made by others but with some variation: My choices for a home defense firearm would be (1) a 20-bore pump-gun, say, a common Winchester or Remington, loaded with standard trap / skeet loads of no. 7-1/2 or 8 lead shot (At short range, density kills not shot size.), which provides one the power of an old black powder elephant gun at close range; or (2) if under the circumstances a handgun is absolutely needed, then my choice would be a revolver over any semi-automatic pistol, in .38 Special caliber, using 148 grain wadcutter bullets that have been turned bottom side up so the entire flat face of the bullet's base is presented, which full caliber (.356-.358, depending on the manufacturer and age of the handgun) projectile creates a more massive wound channel than the hollow point or soft point projectile that require more velocity to perform than the standard handgun cartridge is capable of producing, in order to match their 'billing' (or the weight of the bullet used is abnormally light for the caliber, so to achieve the needed velocity). If you do not hand-load, then a custom maker can provide you suitable cartridges, or perhaps a friend familiar with reloading can make the cartridges described above for you.

The suggestion of the 20-bore is made because guns of that bore are generally lighter and more maneuverable than larger bores. The gun's magazine can be loaded and then the slide and bolt drawn back until the carrier starts to pick up a cartridge, which allows for the bolt to remain open while stored for potential emergency use. When needed, the gun can be raised to shooting position, the slide simply pushed forward to chamber the cartridge, and the gun is then immediately ready to shoot. The gun can be stored where best accessible.

The revolver can be loaded and stored at the owner's discretion in a safe but readily accessible place. Shoot the firearm selected until proficient at the range anticipated.

We wish you every success in your search.

Regards,

Edwardian

Edwardian's suggestion of using specially concocted loads for home defense is a terrible one, IMHO. There is a plethora of suitable loadings available for any caliber that would be useful for this. I never want to have to defend myself on a witness stand against a prosecuting attorney trained to make me look like a bloodthirsty white man with an itchy trigger finger. But, how much harder would it be to do so when he says to you something like "You WANTED to kill somebody didn't you? You wanted to so bad that you went to the trouble to load the bullets UPSIDE DOWN! You couldn't wait until you got the opportunity to shoot somebody with one of your specially prepared MAN-KILLER LOADS, could you? It's an obSESSION with you, isn't it?"

Don't for a minute think that this scenario couldn't happen to you. I know it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, but there are plenty of good s.d. loads that can be bought over the counter.

Personally, I'm a "shotgun man", for defense. Jeff Cooper, the great .45 ACP guru once wrote that a pistol should be used to fight your way to the closest shotgun, or something to that effect. I read, yesterday, a report on findings of a lengthy investigation of about 1500 shootings, with everything from a .22 RF, up through .44 Mag., and including centerfire rifles and shotguns. No pistol caliber had a good record for one shot incapacitation, not even the old vaunted .45 ACP. The centerfire rifles and shotguns, however, were upwards of 80% in effectiveness. It went on to say that many "one shot incapacitations" are not the result of death, or complete immobilization, but rather the result of the "shootee" giving up in surrender. Whatever ....... the idea is not to kill a man, it is to prevent that man from doing you harm. If he takes a round and gives up the fight, fine with me. I'll hold him 'til the law arrives. I'd rather bet my life on my being able to put 1 1/8 oz. of lead shot in him than my being able to put a well placed bullet in him, and I'm an old pistol shooting competitor. And, I sure feel better about stopping him with one round from a shotgun.

SRH

I was refraining from answering a Socialist/Communist foreigner living in our country and posing as an American in real life and on this board....

But since you brought me up I really don't care what you do.

Brian, or other knowledgeable posters who care to weigh in, what is your opinion of the HK P30?

The S&W will work out fine for you. For a few years I've had a Taurus 905 with full moon clips. This revolver gets shot monthly and has yet to give me any problem. My other 9mm that I carry is a Springfield RO Compact.

+10

You make up some super-duper inverted bullet home-defense loads and use them on an intruder, and you will be convicted. You would be handing the prosecuting attorney your behind on a platter.

Frankly, my first suggestion for home defense is a large, loud dog. Dogs are more alert than you'll ever be, and know who belongs and who doesn't. And my second would be a 20 ga pump loaded with a standard trap load. Tape a flashlight to it. Everyone recognizes the sound of a pump shotgun being racked, and it's a useful warning.

"Stan," et al. your logic or knowledge underlying and supporting your statements, respectively, escapes me. For example, your emotive statements regarding personal liability or legal jeopardy when a person employs what the person believes to be the most effective cartridge / firearm to defend himself or herself in their abode or otherwise is uninformed. You have the right to lawfully defend yourself. Should the local district attorney and the grand jury disagree and indict, you hire a defense attorney to defend you. Bear in mind you have nothing to prove and no onus to prove yourself innocent; on the other hand, the prosecutor 'must' prove his case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Should a defense attorney put his defendant on the witness stand, or yet allow his client to even take the stand, in a criminal case, that demonstrably incompetent attorney would be committing malpractice of the first order. It could form the basis of an appeal if there is a conviction. This is to say you as a defendant will not be taking the witness stand to defend yourself. Remember, you hired a qualified attorney to do that.

Now, you could take the witness stand and testify, which is your right, of course, but your defense is your attorney's job, not yours, and the professional defense attorney hopefully has the knowledge, training and experience to defend you. Otherwise, why hire a defense attorney? Should the scenario of taking the stand eventuate, you as defendant would unnecessarily expose yourself to withering cross-examination and it would be a remarkably stupid decision to do so, and very likely one taken against your own attorney's best advice. The question of guilt will revolve around whether the shooting and taking of life were justified, not on the matter of equipment that caused the death. Questions of intent are not as important (and very difficult for the prosecutor to prove) as questions concerning the totality of the circumstances that led to the shooting, and not what may have been anticipated as needed by the shooter. So, the scenario you paint for yourself is highly unlikely to ever occur.

Second, why do we buy soft nose or hollow point ammunition with which to load our designated self-defense firearms, and how do we come to select the same? The makers advertise their effectiveness to kill and massively at that, or perhaps I just have not seen those that advertise wounding loads or those strictly meant for that purpose. The adverts I have seen, and assuredly everyone else on this forum has too, demonstrate the effectiveness of their company's projectile by showing the viewer how the projectile displaces large amounts of ballistic gelatin and how far it penetrates. Though perhaps I have just missed the ballistic demonstration where the projectile is meant to disable.

If I -- or for that matter anyone else -- find myself in a circumstance where I must point my defensive firearm at an individual and requires that I fire my firearm, I am not going to be thinking of defending myself by use of some trick or chancy wounding shot. I am going to aim for or point at the chest area and pull the trigger, which shot will most likely kill my assailant. If the situation indeed warrants the need to pull trigger, then it is going to be a justifiable act to law enforcement or the courts.

I think you have it right with respect to the preference for a shotgun as a defense weapon. Though I believe that such would be rather impractical as a tool to simply disable or wound an assailant. Should the need arise, I intend to place my shot in the chest area and will hope to survive the attack and / or the armed home invasion. Of course, if the assailant or invader is willing to dispense with his aggression, I would naturally take him into personal custody because of a change in circumstance, which then could also be justified.


Regards,

Edwardian

Seems to me you either have the right to utilize deadly force to protect yourself, your loved ones, or the sanctity of your home or you don't. How deadly the force you use is should be irrelevant. Better just be sure what authorizes deadly force in your jurisdiction...Geo

25+ years of practicing law tells me to tell you what I wrote above. You probably haven't been around courthouses and courtrooms enough to know that using your super-duper home-brewed inverted bullet home defense loads is a prescription for litigation disaster (even bigger than putting your client on the stand). However correct your moral arguments about using what you like to protect those near and dear to you are, they are not winning legal arguments.
You may have noticed in your life that what is moral and/or morally justified does not necessarily coincide with what is legal and/or legally justified. This is one of those situations. You can dislike that all you want, but you are highly unlikely to change it.

Edwardian, I have to agree with Stan and Dave in Maine on this one. For quite a few years, I kept my .357 Magnum charged with 148 gr. Speer hollow base wadcutters loaded backwards. It was a devastating defensive load with enormous expansion, even with mild powder charges that were very easy to control and get back on target. Most important to me was that my wife could easily manage the recoil, and the limited penetration gave me some assurance that if she ever needed to shoot an intruder, she had a better chance of stopping them without a miss going through walls to hit an unintended target.

Then I read several accounts of what people had to go through after they used handloads to shoot, and either wound or kill a bad guy. As stated, they were charged by ambitious and often anti-gun prosecutors, and they were made out to be the villain for having the brains to use an effective handload. They may have been right. In fact, I'm certain they were right. But they still had to endure arrest, trials, and enormous legal costs... and sometimes they would lose the case.

So, I went out and bought a box of Winchester 158gr. hollow points that had a good reputation for effectiveness, and spent some time with the wife teaching her how to first, use a Remington 870 pump shotgun, and second, how to handle the significantly greater recoil of the .357 Magnum with factory loads.

None of this is meant to help Jagermeister, who proudly voted for Obama twice, and who comes here to do anti-gun trolling and doesn't even own a double gun. He actually rents guns, so his choices here are presumably dictated by which handguns are available for rental. He should go with his vice-president Joe Biden's advice, and simply shoot his short barreled Ithaca model 37 out of his window to frighten away any intruders. In fact, I think he ought to do that right now... just in case any may be lurking outside.

Cops, lawyers, courts, judges. Seems like a big headache to me. Just move to Nova Scotia. They don't even lock their doors.


_________________________________
Or just chop the sumbitch up and throw 'im to the gators.

I'm with you 100%, Colonel. (0-5 or 0-6?) I carried and used the 1911-A-1 .45 ACP in Vietnam, a life saver many times, so I tend to think that what saved my USMC ass back then, more than once, is still the best tool for the job today. I shoot handguns (the Colt Combat Commander and the Para-Carry Kimber with the same loads at the indoor range club that I would use if the SHTF in self-defense on the street, or in my home. But in the dead dark of Zero-dark-thirty hours, first choice will always be my M25 Winchester in guard-riot configuration, 20" cyl, barrel (no turkey hunting sights to get hung up on God knows what) and stuffed to the innards with 2&3/4" 00 buckshot- Guaran=damn-tee you, anything gets in front of that muzzle in a CQC scenario in my house will be blown to pieces, and lose their intent to do me and my family harm in a New York Minute.

Best way I can think of to stack the odds against yourself in case of a prosecution for unnecessary force is a history of social media remarks like some we're getting here...Geo

In non-lawyer speak, fox, go with the gators.

___________________________
Or the slag pot at the steel mill.

I'm not so sure about Nova Scotia lonesome. When King squealed on Jim for giving his opinion of the extreme anti-gunner George Soros, he said that if someone said that in Canada, they would be getting a visit from the Mounties. Of course, King probably would have been cool with Jim's remarks if he had been referring to Wayne LaPierre or George Bush. Willie Nelson's heroes have always been cowboys, and King's heroes have always been anti-gunners.

Geo and Stan are lucky. They can toss an intruder to the gators down there in Georgia. Up north here, we have to wait for possums to crawl into their rectum and slowly eat them from the inside out.

If there is such a thing as reincarnation, I hope Ed Good gets to come back as a possum.

Problem with gators is they knock off work when it gets cold and go dormant. Otherwise there'd be a lot less Labrador Retrievers around to have to feed all year...Geo

And not the Seminoles- love both FloridaCollege teams, but go with the gators to win the SEC? Hummm- maybe??

Amen, Geo. I was thinking of that earlier in the day.

Edwardian, you just "go your own way", and when the fit hits the shan, you'll see.

SRH

Somehow, the sound of a shotgun tends to cheer one up; unless you're a burglar at Fox's house.


________________________
Sorry, Stan.

The guy that taught the CCL course I took advised against even getting hollow points for the reasons listed by Dave in Maine. As I remember he recommend ball ammo.

He is just one guy with one opinion. But this guy was as far to the right as anybody on this board. And this was in a particularly conservative city in a conservative state. But he still worried about it and that stuck with me.

No apology necessary, lr.

SRH

My wife took a handgun defense course taught by local law enforcement many years ago. Most of these students were women, but a few men sat through it with their wives just to make them more comfortable. I did. I remember well the admonitions ...... Never shoot anyone in the back, even if they just raped you and are leaving...... When you fire at a perp, even if he falls to the floor upon the first shot, keep shooting him until your gun is empty ....... Never pull a gun if you do not intend to pull the trigger.

SRH

"Dave in Maine," et al., having only been around the court system, practicing attorneys, and state and federal judges for some 45-years, and having during that time authored many bills that later became civil or criminal law in the State of Illinois, informs me that a number of misapprehensions concerning self-defense issues are prevalent. Although the subject is, however, understandably confusing and apparently misunderstood.

It's the circumstances in these types of cases that either works for or against the defendant, or for or against the prosecution. However, if the defendant's attorney believes before trial that his client is surely doomed simply because he chose to purchase from a store or concoct for himself more effective ammunition, such self-defeating attitudes do tend to get the hapless defendant convicted--or worse, create a situation where a plea agreement can be foisted on him. His attorney might even believe that what the defendant did was somehow morally wrong and his self-defense measures unjustified, in which case the attorney never should have accepted the defendant's case. Indeed, we are not discussing premeditated murder here, we are instead addressing self-defense, I had thought. Preparation for self-defense is not a crime or indicative of mindset. Nor would it be wise for a defendant to hire any defense attorney who considers self-defense to be indefensible, which opinion seems to be mildly suggested as well.

There is a trend these days for the prosecution to overcharge defendants (Here, for example, federal conspiracy charges are an overused but 'popular' way to force plea agreements.). The overarching problem is that too few younger attorneys have trial experience because some 90% of criminal cases are pleaded. So it can be off-putting for some to have to defend clients at jury trial. And cases of self-defense with a firearm especially, which a significant portion of the populace object to as always unjustified, can be daunting to engage.

It needs to be reiterated that any attorney who puts his client on the witness stand in a criminal case should be looked on with a great deal of suspicion as to his professional judgment. The idea that a criminal defendant is going to be made or allowed to self-incriminate himself by taking the witness stand on the advice of counsel is ludicrous. It isn't going to happen.

If the shooting is justified under the prevailing circumstances by law, the defense attorney should be willing and able to defend his client quite well. As you know, the defendant does not have to prove his innocence; it is instead the prosecutor who has to prove the guilt of the defendant beyond a reasonable doubt. Any reasonable doubt and the client should be found innocent, whether tried by jury or before the court at the bench. It is the job of the skillful defense attorney to argue and inculcate and thereby instill reasonable doubt in the mind of the jurist or in the minds' of the members of the jury. Justice usually prevails.

I hereby rest my ruminations and my case.


Regards,

Edwardian

Before you rest, counselor, would you answer one question for me? I am a farmer, about as far removed from criminal law as one man can be, but can not the family of a slain perp bring civil charges, in other words a law suit, against the one who shot their "loved one" in self defense? Would not that defendant then be required to take the stand and answer such questions, such as I put forth? Perhaps I used the term "prosecuting attorney" in error, but the point I was trying to make is that if I do end up on the witness stand, to defend my actions, they will be much easier to defend if the opposing attorney cannot use "fringe" actions, such as concocting homemade self defense loads, against me.

When two attorneys here have diametrically opposing views on the subject, what is a peon to think?

SRH

Just throw 'em in the slag pot. That's what they do in River Rouge and Ecorse, Michigan. Prolly Gary, Indiana too. Bunch of fancy boys. Wagner is good slag pot chuckin' music.

_________________________
It's been a good year for the tomatoes (to paraphrase George Jones)

Two lawyers rarely agree. That's what's called law practice. Personally, I think Dave in Maine overstates the case. I wouldn't worry so much about using the best home defense weapon and ammo I could find.

If you have the right to defend your home and loved ones with lethal force (as you do in Georgia) you'd have to be pretty unlucky to draw a prosecutor who'd try to make an issue of your ammo. Maine may be different...Geo

What do you call a hundred lawyers in a sack at the bottom of the ocean?

A good start.


___________________________
Thus sprach Zarathustra.

Ja. Gotterdamerung und Der Krupp Stahl in Essen!! Musik fur dem Totenfest!! Herr Fuchs

We may not agree on freezing woodcock whole, but Geo and I agree on shooting to kill home intruders if one is in fear of own life or that of others in the home. There are no Marquis of Queensberry rules or Geneva Convention restrictions regarding choice of ammo in such situations. One issue of using rifles or handguns in such situations is the danger of shooting through a wall and hitting a family member. That's another reason for the choice of a bird shot loaded shotgun for home defense. Here's a short video of what a .22LR round can do inside a home penetrating wall boards. Gil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pSVn7ozXTQ

Buy a better house. In a better neighborhood. Won't have to worry about a lr going through your entire abode and far fewer nefarious characters invading your space. Problem solved.


___________________________
O sole mio. The Three Tenors

No experience with it. I can only comment on what I have carried, used, shot.

a 20 Ga pump is very appropriate for home defense. I would also recommend an AR15. the urban legends of 223/556 over penetrating walls is just that. the FBI has done tests on this.

handloaded ammunition has no place in a self defense situation because of the liability issues when you are placed on the stand and the plaintiffs lawyer asks you why factory ammunition wasn't "deadly enough" for you so you had to make up loads that were "even more devastating" or the defendant used "rifle powder" to make more powerful loads.
you think I am joking?? these issues have come up in trials of people who have used handloads in self defense. there are several books out there that detail case law and trials with these issues.

hollow base wadcutters seated backwards is also urban legend, widely touted in the 60's and 70's. if they expand, they wont penetrate far enough. you need 12" of penetration (as per FBI standards) in order to have a reasonable chance of hitting the vitals of a human form any angle.

best suggestion for ammunition choices is to find out what your sheriffs office issues or local PD issues their officers, carry that. you would be using what the law enforcement organization deems appropriate for defensive use. takes away a lot of arguments.

Politically correct burglar ammo? Who'd of thunk it!...Geo

Lawyers.

______________________________
Lawyers! Huh! What are they good for?

Glad I live in a state where a burglar or his lawyer doesn't get to pick and choose what ammo I should use in home defense. Gil

I agree with the logic of using the same brand of ammunition that your State or Local Police Depts. find acceptable. That would tend to deflate a lot of potential unpleasant accusations.

I somewhat disagree with the notion that hollow base wadcutters loaded backwards are ineffective or merely an urban myth. Although I no longer keep them in my home defense revolver of choice, when I adopted the practice, I did my own informal testing to prove to myself what they might do if called upon. In reading about these on the internet, I get the distinct impression that many of the opinions about them were formed without ever even trying them.

Some guys claim that loading them backwards will cause the center portion of the bullet to be blown out leaving essentially a lead tube stuck in the barrel. Since the center portion is the same thickness when facing either way, and pressure of equal powder charges would be the same, that idea is just silly.

Some guys claim that the skirts get blown off when loaded backwards, and the small portion that is left has very little penetration. Others claim that they are only accurate enough for very close range encounters, and that the HBWC loaded backward will keyhole after going a short distance.

In my Colt Trooper Mk III, I found them to be actually a bit more accurate loaded backwards than when loaded facing forward. Groups from a rest at 25 yards will usually keep 6 shots all touching in a tight cluster if I do my part, with absolutely no signs of keyholing. When fired into bundles of soaking wet newspaper, penetration was on the order of 7-8 inches with massive expansion. 7-8 inches is more than adequate to reach the vitals of most any man I know. If it took more than 7-8 inches to reach some attackers heart or liver, he is probably so fat that I could outrun him with my ankles shackled. With a face on shot, 12 or more inches of penetration is likely going to pass entirely through the average human chest cavity and exit out the back unless the bullet breaks up on ribs or is stopped by the spine. Stand with your back against a wall and measure the depth of your chest. When fired into water filled gallon milk jugs, they would blow the first jug into smithereens and oftentimes rupture the jug directly behind the first. I have never fired them into blocks of ballistics gelatin, but have fired them into other informal mediums such as muddy creek banks. I have no doubt they would reach an attackers heart and pulverize it. I have only used Speer 148 gr. hollow base wadcutters. I cannot say what expansion or penetration would be of any other brand, or any other alloy for those who cast their own wadcutters. I also can't say what might happen if that huge hollow point got filled with heavy clothing covering the target. The load I was using was 3.2 gr. of Bullseye as I recall, and it was only moving around 800 fps. As I said earlier, recoil was very light, even for my wife, and it was much easier to control and get back on target than full house loads. Recoil was not a consideration for me, but it was for her, as was possible over penetration if she ever had to shoot an intruder when my kids might be in the next room.

I know there are much better commercial factory loads for self defense these days, and because of the uncertainties of what might follow a defensive shooting, I will continue to use them instead of my 148 gr Speer HBWC's or any other handloads. As an aside, I have also experimented with grinding a drill bit to the same diameter as a .22 Short round, and chucking .50 cal 370 gr. Maxi Balls in a Unimat Lathe, and drilling a hole in the nose. Then you insert a .22 short into this hollow point with the rimfire priming end facing forward. This turns a slow lumbering muzzleloading projectile into a bullet that explodes on impact. I read that the buffalo hunters used to do this, but since it is illegal to use explosive bullets for hunting, and there are no buffaloes in my area, all I can say is that they expand much much more than the standard Maxi-Ball. None of the above are recommendations, and should only be done at your own risk.

Thank you. I'm going with a six shot revolver and keeping my five-shot 940. Both are chambered for the 9x19 cartridges.

[img:left][/img]

Although Speer Gold Dot is most proven right now my ammo of choice is Federal HST as this was what LGS had for sale.

"Hunt Master", sorry for the long diversion. Glad you came to a conclusion with all of the 'flack'.

Cheers,
Hoot

Yes, good choice, Jag. Now just find a nice, warm swamp, a buddy at the steel mill or a real good lawyer. Chances are if you ever use that thing you'll need at least one of them. That's one ugly lamp btw.


_______________________________
Summer Wind. Frank Sinatra

Keith,
urban legend had I that the hollow base loaded backwards was an instant stopper. no such thing.
informal testing is just that. I have not used them. but I put more stock in the FBI ballistics tests that have been done scientifically, quantifiably and formally than my or any other informal tests.
you can use whatever you want but my point is that handloaded ammunition for self defense is not the smart thing to do. And for those who say they are glad that in their state they don't have to worry about what ammo they use, do what you wish. But if you talk to a good defense attorney who has experience defending law abiding citizens who have sued firearms for self defense, you might see another perspective.
like I said earlier, this is my opinion and its worth absolutely nothing.
But, as for me, factory loaded Speer Gold Dots are my choice in any handgun I can get them for.

We are all grown ass men here and can make our own decisions. Good luck, good shooting and be safe.