I need to remove the buttstock from a V19. How do you do it. Need a safety for a V19 12 gauge. Any Darne shooters out there with knowledge on how t remove the buttstock.

Do a search for this guy,

Ted Schefelbein,

I'm sure he has posted instruction on this before if not he should be around shortly.

How about a pic?????

I did a search and he covers the R models very well but not the V models which are different.

Indeed, they are different. I've been asked about twice in 30 years how to do this. To be frank, your post leaves me wondering what the hell happened to this gun?

A Darne V is not what one would usually consider an amatuer gunsmithing project. Parts for your V model are almost non-existant in this hemisphere, and it would seem to me that there is a good chance you are going to need the services of either Kirk Merrington, who had, at one time, the carcass of a V model that a customer had had a go at "cleaning her up a bit", and lost some critical parts for the gun, which were never seen again, and abandoned the gun with him, or, Geoffroy Gournet, who has a few parts on hand for repairing the guns (I sent him some of mine, the only V parts I remember were trigger return springs, when he got into the importation of Darne guns, an endeavor which, lasted about a year if I am remembering correctly).
If the gun is going to end up at either shop, why not send it there, now? That would be my very first suggestion. The fact you are asking how to get the stock off a V leads me to believe you might be in over your head working on one. I'm not trying to insult you, just attempting to save you more broken/missing/unsalvagable parts, and some frustration.

But, I will tell you how to do it. Remove the breech and the barrels, and you will see, down in the slot the breech slides in, a screw, which, is for the triggerguard. Remove this, and the screws from the tang of the triggerguard. Unthread the triggerguard and remove it. This will give access to a screw that is underneath the triggerguard, facing up into the action. Remove it also. It is threaded into a wedge that will slide up and out of the action (put a pencil witness mark on the front and top, so you get it back in the same way) and, behind that, will be the screw that holds the wood to the action. A very few pre Bruchet guns had a 10mm bolt under the buttplate, mostly double rifles built in potent calibers. Most of the Bruchet guns have the bolt, rifle or shotgun. You still have to do what I posted, above, before you remove it.
All of these screws have a thin gunsmith slot, and can be easily damaged. There is a good chance the wedge will be seized, and require some time and effort to get out of the gun. The threads of the stock screw are lubricated with lard when you put it together, and, it has to be tight. These guns have been built, by hand, for over a hundred years, and don't be surprised if there are subtle differences between what I say is there, and what is actually on your gun. This will get you started in the right direction, however.

I wish you good luck with your project, but, I really wish you would put it in a box and send it to Kirk. No offense, it just always seems to end better that way.


Best,
Ted

I totally agree with what Ted says. The screw that secures the action to the stock, in the pre Bruchet guns, can be difficult to remove. The stock should be clamped firmly, the screw driver must be perfectly sized so as not to bugger the slot and braced hard against the screw to avoid any tendency to slip. Lots of experience removing difficult screws helps to know when just a little more torque will break the screw head and ruin your day.
nial

This help is invaluable. My V19 is in too poor of shape to spend much money on. It will fire but the buttstock is cracked. The barrels are pitted. I shoot three R models at skeet two times a week. I am a "retired gunsmith" and have a complete machine shop. I rebuilt the stock on one of my R models. I am trying to get the breech block off this V19. I know how to do it but I can not get it to pop up. I am 80 years old and may not have the strength to do it. My V seems to have a few screws missing under the trigger guard but it works just fine. This gun has very high grade wood. The safety is missing and if I could see one I may be able to machine one out.

The reason I ask questions is in 30 years of gun repair I found if I resurched how to make the repair I saved hours of shop time. Many of times I have had parts shoot out and across my shop and had to spend hours looking. This V19 is a candidate for me to take apart and see how they work. I have always thought if somebody put it togeather it can be taken apart and put back togeather again.

Keep at it, old buddy. Don't worry about waning strength. It's the head, the struggle, searching always for answers, better ways, that keeps the spirit alive.

The problem usually isn't with retired gunsmiths that have a beat up V that they understand the limitations of thowing money at, rather, otherwise sane people, who have the ONE example they have ever seen in their hands, and making the decision they are somehow qualified to work on it, with the toolset they got the wife for Christmas, the toolset with the pink handles.
It doesn't seem from this point that you are the latter, but, trust me, I have met them, way more times than I care to remember.
It does take substantial effort to get the key up and out of the sliding breech on a V. Make sure you are straight up in the air with it, and keep tugging. It likely has some crud about the axle, and you are forcing that crud out from between the main spring and it's interference fit with the axle. It will be easier to do, the second time you do it.
Good luck. I'd make an effort to replace any screws that are missing, they all have a job to do on a Darne.

Best,
Ted

Ted, I have repaired a lot guns that people have tried to repair with a Swiss Army knife. But my favorite is the ones I get in a plastic bag and the guy assures me that the parts are all there. There is always one part missing. Thank you for yor help and if I run into a problem I will give you a holler. Thank you George Frazier.

I had to laugh at the Pink handled tool set Ted.
I,..er, I mean my wife have two or three kicking around the house
cheers
franc

Don't know if you saw this older posting, but, it has some pictures of what you need to do to get a V breech off the gun:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=356281&page=1

Franc, put the pink tools away. Really good tools are their own reward.


Best,
Ted

GRF:

Are you sure it's a V and not a P? I only ask because I purchased a grade 19 recently thinking it a P, but discovered post-acqusition that it was a P grade, which I am told by the experts (Ted Schefelbein and Kirk Merrington) are complete dogs to remove the breech block on.

Ted can explain far better than I how to tell them apart, but it has to do with whether the lever is one piece (V) or two piece (P).

Mine was in much better shape than the gun as you've described it, so I sent it to Kirk Merrington for a strip and clean and a repair of the forend lug.

Rem

Have you had a chance to use that one, since Kirk worked on it?

By the way, I consider myself only a student of the sliding breech gun, not an expert. I seem to learn interesting things about them all the time. I hope to keep doing that.

The hard and fast rules like one piece and two piece opening lever get fuzzy on older guns. But, you bring up an excellent point, Paul. George, if you can, send off a photo or two of the gun, so we can be sure your 80 year old shoulders aren't tugging in vain on an old P gun. A clear view or three of the action and a shot of the action flats would help greatly.

My email is in my profile, if you don't know how to post pictures, here. I'll do it for you, if you would like.

Best,
Ted

Ted:

I haven't, as I broke my wrist a week after the gun was returned. The cast comes off at the end of January at which time I plan to give the gun a nice workout.

Ted,relax,
I am not allowed to use the wifes Barbie Tools
I have a Blue "Ken" set all of my very own
cheers
franc

Ted I sent some pictures to you. My Darne has a screw in the opening lever with a R stamped on it. Is this a P grade and not a V grade? George Frazier

George,
Your gun is a P model. Once you get the buttstock off, you will have an idea as to how to get the breech off. The breech on this type of Darne is NOT easily removable.
That was a fabulous gun at one point in time.

Best,
Ted

Paul,
Appears to be graded exactly like your gun, a 19 grade P. This one lived a very hard life.
This would have been a very expensive gun in it's day, sometimes I wonder what happens to them?



Good luck with your project, George.

Best,
Ted

I got the gun apart. Over the years parts were replaced like the stock through bolt was a threaded rod. I am going to re-design some parts. Figured out the safety and will machine one. The stock is all there and will rebuild nicely. Will clean everthing up. Should be a nice gun. To remove the breech block you drive out a pin which is evident when you remove the stock.i will post some pictures when I get it finished.

George,
Almost all Darnes have a threaded rod in the wrist. It has wood screws on the outside, and machine screw threads on the inside. That same rod makes it almost impossible to bend the stock for the cast, right or left, that you need. I always tell people to forget buying a Darne that doesn't fit.
It looks like a good, but, advanced, gunsmithing project that will keep you out of the pool hall in the coming year. Enjoy it.
The design of your gun, and, a Charlin sliding breech gun, miss the true advantage of Regis Darne's model R and V sliding breech guns, in my opinion. That is because they both feature a pin in a hinge, same as a Purdey or a Stevens, or the hinge on a barn door. The model R and V guns avoid that, and spread the wear surfaces out over the entire length of the gun's action. I've never owned a P, but, have examined quite a few, and wouldn't likely turn a decent one down if it came my way and it fit.
That said, most of us won't live long enough to wear a gun out from using it.
Do keep us posted on your progress.

Best,
Ted

Ted, the threaded rod that holds the stock on was a poor design all that held it on was a small thin flang on the end. I am going to thread the action, re-drill the stock and put a solid steel rod though the stock. I will then cut to length and thread for a nut under the butt plate. This will give me a substantial stock hook up that will pull the stock into the action. I will glass bed the stock because it is too thin and weak. This will be stage one. George.

Ted:

If I recall correctly, this is the third P-19 to surface in a couple of months. Wonder why so many buyers would have chosen the P over the V for the grade 19 finish? Maybe a substantial price difference or the Darne factory trying to move old parts inventory? Mine has initials inlay, so it certainly wasn't something just grabbed off the rack.

George:

Does your gun have an inlay with owner's initials?

Paul

Really hard to say from where we sit today, Paul. George's gun is a long way from new, right around 100 years, I'd guess, and from the looks of it, I'd say it has seen some modifications to keep it chugging along.
The 1909 catalog I have says that the gold inlay was a standard feature of a P gun. I really like the engraving on the detonators on George's gun, can't wait to see it cleaned up a bit.
Nothing about this gun says "off the rack" to me. It would have cost a lot of money when it was new.

Best,
Ted

When I started to drill for a new stock bolt I got quite a surprise, the stock had a 1/2" cast on. Could not see through the hole because of the curve in the stock. That is why the original stock bolt was replaced with a 1/4 threaded rod which bent to follow the stock bolt hole. The stock was given the cast on after it left the factory as it is very difficult to drill a curved hole. So now I am trying to figure how to make a new stock bolt with that much cast on. If I drill a new stright hole there is a great chance of coming out through the wrist as it is very thin.

Paul my gun does not have a shield for initials. George

George,
Send a photo or two of your progress from time to time, and I'll put them up on the board. Nice to see the stages and how it comes together.
Few people would attempt something like this.

Best,
Ted

I will. I am still trying to determine if the stock is factory. It is high grade wood but somebody must have steamed it for a year to get that much cast on. It has a original horn butt plate.

Another picture of George's project Darne P grade 19. He reports the stock has been replaced at one point, and he is confident the action is tight and working well (damn lucky, since the stock work was less than stellar).

He is working up a replacement bolt and fitting for the stock, and intends to build a new stock for it.



Keep at it, George.

Best,
Ted

My 16 bore Darne is a V17. The Parisian dealer I bought it from insisted that it was a P17. He had a bunch of certificates on his walls attesting to his expertise and at that time I didn't know the difference. The only way it differs from a V19 is that it doesn't have a long tang behind the trigger guard and of course has only 7 stars.
I believe it might be possible to bend a Darne stock up or down. Remove the threaded screw from the wrist, bore the hole a bit wider and deeper and glue in a walnut plug. Make a jig that mates with the flats of the stock, secure stock to it using whatever means that will protect the wood, then use heat lamps over a protracted period of time with a steady pressure in the right direction. Afterwards, reinstall the threaded bolt/screw, whatever it's called, in the wrist. I haven't done it, am not about to do it but I think it might work.
nial

Yes that would work. I am going to live with the cast on for the time being. If I make a new stock I will make it heaver with the right amount of drop and a parallel comb. I have completed the glass bedding of the stock and which repaired the crack and now is good and tight. Does anybody know what headspaces the action? It is some what like a Luger which for the most part because of the precision machine is not a problem. Does the key going down into the lower receiver determine the headspace or does the tail on the key determine it. Or are the barrels adjusted? Or maybe Darne did not care becaue on a shotgun it "generally" not a problem.

I'm a bit confused when you say "head space". Shotgun shells head space on the rim. The Darne breech block locks hard up against the barrels using a knuckle. Same principal as a Luger or injection mold presses or a zillion other mechanisms. In the Darne the rear end of the key pivots on to a replaceable shim or wedge or I don't know what you call it. In the event of wear, after about a million years, not a big deal to fit a new one.
nial

George,
I've been looking at the pictures of your gun, and I can't really determine how it was headspaced. It is different enough from what I have seen over the years, that I would have a tough time without having it in my hands.
Up on the face of the breech are raised areas that project on to the base of the loaded cartridge. These are much more pronounced on a typical sliding breech gun that is equipped with them. These "obturator discs" do not seem to be a different part that is bolted in to the breech face on your gun, from what I can see, and they are, on a more conventional Darne gun.
The key sould go into final battery pretty firmly on a loaded gun. The adjustment is not on the barrels, they are an interference fit to the base that the breech slides on. If the key is sloppy at all in final battery with loaded cartridges in the gun, you might have an issue.

Nial, I once priced a V grade gun for a customer with R13 level engraving and wood.
It was never ordered or sold, but, it was possible to spec a gun for yourself through most of the Darne companies history.
It helped to be right there, with cash in hand, I imagine.

Best,
Ted

Assembled my gun and made up a few blanks to shoot in the shop. Using federal primers left barrel would not fire. Using winchester primers both barrel fired but left strike was weaker. Firing pin protrusion same for both pins. Rim cut out left barrel .0068 right Barrel .0060. The head space is set by a locator pin located in the top of breech block going into a pin on top of barrels.

George,
You might want to get into the breech mechanism a bit, to see if either crud is keeping the left firing pin from moving freely, or if the spring that drives it (a pretty stout coil spring) is broken badly enough to reduce the force it is generating.
Just soaking the entire breech can work wonders. I have hosed everything down on a dismounted sliding breech with Break Free (or, automatic transmission fluid) and allowed it to sit, upside down on a rag for a week or so, and then soaked it in mineral spirits or diesel fuel, blowing it off and lightly re-lubricating, on guns that weren't too gummed up. 9 out of 10 times, it is all they need.
The firing pin spring is contained around the firing pin, and the guns usually continue to work, even if they are broken in one or two spots. But, there is going to be a limit on how many breaks in the spring the gun will tolerate before it no longer works reliably.

Best,
Ted