Can anyone explain the different features that make the grades below what they are?

Field
Gr 1
Gr 1S
Gr 1-1/2

Thanks,
Bill

They changed over time. As originally introduced in the Crass Model the No. 1 had some engraving and Twist barrels. Later in the Crass period Ithaca added a No. 1P which had Twist barrels and a plain receiver with the roll-stamping on the sides. The engraved No. 1 went away in a couple of years and what was introduced as the No. 1P became the No. 1. Early on the No. 2 was the lowest grade to have Damascus barrels, but apparently Ithaca saw a demand for a lower priced gun with Damascus barrels and added the No. 1 1/2 which had the plain receiver with the roll-stamped logo on the sides and came with Damascus barrels. As steel barrels came in Ithaca added the No. 1 Special with Cockerill Steel barrels on the plain roll-stamped receiver. Finally Ithaca added an even lower priced gun the Field Grade with Smokeless Powder Steel barrels on the plain roll-stamped receiver with a half-pistol grip stock. By the time the Flues Model arrived the grades were like this.

Field Grade --



No. 1 Special --



No. 1 --



and the No. 1 1/2 --



which had at some point along the way gotten the zig-zag border engraving around the receiver.

Then in mid-1915 things began to change when Ithaca redid their engraving patterns and the No. 1 1/2 got the bold floral engraving --



and the option of Krupp barrels.

As Europe was plunged into The Great War, the supply of Twist and Damascus barrel tubes dried up and these finely differentiated grades all ended up with steel barrels, and the No. 1 got the zig-zag border engraving that had been on the earlier No. 1 1/2 --



Finally by 1919 the No. 1 Special was dropped and the No. 1 and No. 1 1/2 were combined as the new No. 1 --



and the Field Grade got a capped pistol grip.

Researcher,
That's what I was looking for. Any input on how the Krupp barrels fit in this?

I think they were using up their supply of Krupp tubes on these entry-level guns as the Krupp name was becoming unpopular while our boys were battling it out with the "Hun" in the fields and forests of Europe. I don't have a 1916 or 17 Ithaca catalogue, so I don't know exactly what the company was saying.

I've seen Ansley H. Fox doubles from the late teens and early 20s with barrels roll-stamped CHROMOX on top, but still showing remnants of Krupp markings underneath!!

Well done Researcher. Always a pleasure to read your scholarly and informative answers to questions and queries.

Thank you for this thread.

I've been meaning to ask about a 1919 - Serial # 308761 - 1 1/2 - floral engraving as in your above pic but with matching serial # CHAIN DAMASCUS BARRELS - 30".

1)How unique/rare would this combination be, seeing this late date of mfg?

2)Is it likely that this was a 'semi-custom' or 'special order'? (Or someone said "hey, here's an extra set of
chain damascus barrels, let's throw them on this 1 1/2" - LOL)

3)Weren't chain damascus barrels typically used on higher grade guns?

4)Please remind me which year Ithaca catalog dropped damascus barrels as an option?

5)Is it still possible to get information on specific, individual guns by serial #?

Good to be back

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Appreciated!

Normally Chain Damascus barrels were a feature of the No. 3. My gut feeling is this was the likely scenario --



In the January 1, 1916, catalogue Ithaca Gun Co. is still offering the full array of Twist and Damascus barrels. The next Ithaca Gun Co. catalogue I have is July 29, 1919, and there are no Twist or Damascus barrels offered. I snagged a couple of pictures of pages from a 1918 Ithaca Gun Co. catalogue off ebay and the No. 1 1/2 was only offered with steel barrels.

Sometimes there was more than a little disconnect between what was happening on the factory floor and what folks in the office were putting in the catalogues.

I believe Walter has sent his Flues era records to the McCracken Research Library at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West in Cody, Wyoming. When they get them digitized and begin offering Ithaca letters is anyone's guess. You could call Mary Robinson, the Housel Director of the library and ask (307) 578-4080.

1918 E.C. Simmons, St. Louis

Field: "Smokeless Powder Steel", No. 1: "Imported Stub Twist", No. 1 1/2: "Imported Damascus", No. 2: "Imported Damascus", No. 3: "Chain Damascus or Krupp Fluid Steel", No. 4: "Krupp Fluid Steel or American Flag Damascus"



There was no doubt a delay between what Ithaca was producing, and what the major dealers still had on hand. And likely 'rough forged tubes' in the bins were being used up for some time after pattern welded barrels were no longer cataloged.

Those two cuts shown in the Simmons catalogue show a No. 3 (upper) and a No. 2 (lower) Flues in the pre 1915 engraving patterns. Me thinks that information is quite confusing and very out of date. These are the two pages from a 1918 Ithaca Gun Co. catalogue I have --

Not as confusing as the 1902 Supplee Hardware catalog's 14 gauge A2 Variation 2

Still have a few of the late Flues shop journals that will be sent soon. Gun 308761 finished 7/22/19 with Damascus barrels. Leafing through the books, most barrels are fluid steel, the odd Krupp into 1919. A few batches of guns made with Damascus barrels into late 1919. Not many if any after that. We did see, nor too long age, an NID three barrel set and one of the barrels was Damascus.
Page 359 of my second edition shows a photo of the barrel storeroom, I don't know how they kept anything straight.

I have never been able to keep the lower grade Flues features straight. I am blessed to have purchased a GR1 16ga s/n 217312 with 30" Krupp barrels from Mr. James Tyson. I believe the manufacture date was 1912. Krupp? Gr1? 1912? Seems like an odd ball. BEAUTLFUL condition.

Thanks again to Researcher, Walt,Dr Hause and others for the invaluable information. It is heart warming to know that Mr. Snyder's legacy is being preserved by McCracken. Tentatively appears I've stumbled across one of the last remnants of our much loved history of production Damascus. I'll treasure this 'hybrid' as a successful tribute to that honorable age. Doug Fore

Also, as a side note, whoever bored/finished these barrels was outstanding. Unbelievable concentric patterns with both tubes. The 'full' side reaching out with beautiful symmetry to a good 50 yards, with STS Managed Recoil 7/8's - 8.5's. I've misplaced a very cherished book that had a variety of authors discussing manufactures such as Ithaca,L.C. Smith, LeFever, Parker, Browning and others. I recall some mention of a bearded gentleman who for decades had bored the Ithaca guns. He was probably retired by the time this gun was produced, however if not him, the tradition continued.

"Uncle" Bob Edwards
1908
https://books.google.com/books?id=xSEPAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA23&lpg

1922
https://books.google.com/books?id=00woAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA240&lpg

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=298195&page=1

In this case "Bob IS your Uncle"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob%27s_your_uncle

As always, astonished at wealth of knowledge here, much appreciated!

One thing for sure is that there were lots of changes and variations in the 1 and 1 1/2 grade guns.
Specifically with the 16's and 20's, I've seen most every combination of engraving and tube steel in those grades.
Plenty of the guns lack a grade stamp of any kind.
Krupp barrels being seen often, chain barrels several times.
Unfortunately, I didn't record all of the serial numbers.
Some of the Krupp barrels are marked on top, some only on the bottom, some both.
Some of the guns marked on the underside only may have even been field grades.
Bill, I believe that your gun may have been in a serial block run of 30" Krupp barreled 16's.
I want to say that it was like 100-150 guns.
Perhaps Walt can verify that or at least where that block occurred.

RR,
I also purchased his GR1 12ga Flues S/N 221987 (also 1912). It would surprise me if this gun has ever been fired. No markings at all on top of the barrels. 28" barrels marked 0 and 4/4. Very cool. Although from the literature I believe it should be a grade 1S because of the LLH marked barrels.

On the 16ga, I think he had "block of 50" in his listing. I neglected to print it before he took it down.

Both guns are treasures. Low grade guns in this condition are far and few between. I have been searching for years.

Bill, Yep, that 50 sounds right.
Wish that I had more of my files and pictures.
Tyson has owned some 'dandies', I'm sure that they are nice.