I just bought a very nice French shotgun at a surprisingly low price. Has anyone here heard of Pondevaux? Does anyone know of a book on French gunmakers?
Photos here:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=485895913
Ten years ago German guild guns were the best values in under apriciated guns. Now it tends to be French or Belgian guild guns. For those who do not care about who made their guns they can be great values. Enjoy.
I'm afraid the seller described it as guild gun by mistake. It is not a guild gun. It's a high grade gun by Pondevaux of St. Etienne. St. Etienne was a major center of arms manufacture, and was in fact the location of the main French government arsenal. I have found examples of percussion & pinfire guns by Pondevaux on the Internet. The firm was at one point also called "Pondevaux et Jussey."
Lovely set of Didier tubes. Interesting forend release.
Cheers
Raimey
rse
Any idea if the "non pour la balle" on the bottom of the left barrel refers only to the choke of that barrel, or should be taken to refer to both barrels?
Anybody know what the "17.0" mark signifies?
Can you tell me anything more about Didier Drevet? I see that he won a medal at an exhibition in 1855.
17mm, search Didier or Drevet within the BBS.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I see. 16 gauge is .663 = 16.83 mm, rounded to 17, I guess.
Sorry, final pass tube diameter. What is the Rebaud ? On the water-table.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Nah, not rounded to integer values but Sig-figs to 1st place.
Kind Regard,
Raimey
rse
It was made in 1885 or completed in 1886 & yes constriction in the left tube.
REBAUD ?
Kinda Regards,
Raimey
rse
16 gauge, hammer gun, underlever Damascus barrels. What's not to like.
She's a beauty and I'm jealous. Have fun with her.
Great find....jealous here too! Thanks for sharing your luck!
I still think it was the concern below & that there just wasn't enough room for the full name so PONDEVAUX ET was applied on left lock.
PONDEVAUX ET JUSSY, fabricants d'armes de luxe stéphanois / à Saint-Étienne, place de l'Hotel-de-Ville, n. :S4, à Saint-Etienne (Loire), fondé en 1837.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Hi Raimey,
the lock is engraved "Pondevaux Ft" (not Et).
Ft stands for "Fabricant" e.g. "Maker".
Nice gun indeed, with a great barrel set...
WC-
Thanks there WildCattle. I was hoping you'd nip in & comment. So with FT, when did PONDEVAUX ET JUSSY divorce? Did you notice that DD also applied a datastring like L. Bernard?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
It was made in 1885 or completed in 1886 & yes constriction in the left tube.
REBAUD ?
Kinda Regards,
Raimey
rse
How did you determine the date?
From the datastring & marks. I'll need to locate several more to have a very high probability, but the touchmarks point that way.
"....en fait celui de Didier Drevet, un spécialiste du canon damas couronné en 1855 à l'exposition universelle de Paris, et qui déposa en 1899 un brevet pour son fameux « canon Plume », un hamerless système Anson classique mais dont la particularité était de disposer d'un canon sans bande dont les tubes étaient réunis au moyen d'une cale unique, puis brasés."
"En 1855, Pierre Didier Drevet, maître canonnier stéphanois remporte la médaille d'or lors de l'Exposition Universelle de Paris pour la confection d'un canon en Damas exceptionnel ; un siècle plus tard, la maison existe toujours et se distingue par un canon ultra-léger, sans bande, où les deux tubes sont réunis au moyen d'une cale unique (brevet déposé le 10 octobre 1899, par les Etablissements Didier-Drevet) se terminant à zéro près des assemblages, le tout brasé. Excédent de bande arrondi et dont l'extrémité, à cinq centimètres du tonnerre, se termine en forme de "bec d'aigle".Ce modèle baptisé "Plume-Euréka", par l'absence de bandes, est un canon extrêment léger qui, cependant demeure plus épais aux endroits essentiels et présente des tubes parfaitement ronds sur toute leur surface ; le guidon d'une conception très spéciale est noyé à l'extrémité des deux tubes, se trouvant sensiblement plus bas que la visière, ce qui fait automatiquement donner un coup haut. D'autres canonniers stéphanois vont exceller dans la construction de ce type de canon, la Maison Fanget en particulier, produit qui équipera et fera apprécier, dans la première moitié du XXe siècle, des armes de chasse allégées et belles grâce à cette particularité : le canon "plume"."
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=396248&page=3Looks like PONDEVAUX ET JUSSY split the sheet circa 1867-1868 and it became Joseph Pondevaux, fabricant d'armes, arquebusier, armurier,
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
That is very interesting. Of course, it was Didier Drevet, not M. Pondevaux, who won the medal in 1855. Ultra-light barrels are a good thing. When the shotgun arrives, I'll be sure to weigh it. Thanks.
What does the "Rebaud. P" stamp on the water table signify? An inspector? the workman who finished the water-table?
Now I didn't say DD of 1855 was the same as Monsieur Pondevaux of 1855. I'm sure info on the medal is out there, I just haven't had the time to scour for it. I've seen a reference or 2 that gives that the concern PONDEVAUX ET JUSSY was dissolved in 1875. So between 1867/1868 & 1875.
Rebaud.P is for the arquebusier, armurier P. Rebaud was was the frame filer/action fella.
I don't have much on "Pondevaux et Jussy". One of my book says that they were together in 1875 and that's about it.
I did find that Pondevaux was a (the?) director of the St-Etienne proof house in the late 1850s. So he was probably well respected.
The St-Etienne proof house was at the time a local affair,sponsored by the St-Etienne chamber of commerce. The Paris proof house was set up the same way in 1900 and actually operated in the beginning within the Bernard factory.
Dider Drevet was riding a bit on L.Bernard's coat-tails, as for marketing.
Bernard was the king of French barrel makers at the time and Drevet (among many others) was copying the type of marking that Bernard was using at the time. So it's pretty certain that the barrel set was made in 1885. The gun however could have been made immediately afterwards or, less likely, before, if the barrel set was a replacement. I sincerely doubt that in that case...
Best regards,
WC-
Many thanks WC for looking. I do not think a replacement tubeset. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
The patent I was actually thinking of was 1853 not 1855:
8,545, vol. 28, p. 19 - Fusil se chargeant par la culasse - avril 9th of 1853)
Adverts from from the 1860s give that Pondevaux et Jussy exported to Russia, U.S. of A.(Amérique) & Turkey
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
No, I meant that I was dense enough originally to associate the medal with Pondevaux instead of Drevet.
I'm accustomed to using a leather handguard on my English doubles. This is what the currently available model looks like:
http://hollandandholland.com/product/leather-shotgun-hand-guard/I wonder if the French use anything similar at all. The Continental preference for sling swivels on shotguns makes the use of the traditional form of English leather handguard impossible.
Nah, not dense. You just have not put in your time with French tubesets. I do wonder if Didier rolled his own or not.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
The vast majority of French shotgun hunting was (is) done with one or a few people working fields and hedges with dogs ("A la billebaude" in Burgundy). There is a lot of walking to do, and a sling is appreciated.
English style driven game shooting is very much an upper crust exception. Those guns don't have slings. On the same note, pairs are a million to one abnormality.
I guess one does not need a hand guard for walk up hunting.
Best regards,
WC-
WC:
Sounds like @ some point you were a beater in the ole Chasser à la billebaude??
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I was, but not in Burgundy, therefore not using that local word.
French speaking readers should get "La Billebaude" from Henri Vincenot, which gives a great idea of the hunting (and life in general) practiced in the 1920s and 30s.
Best regards,
WC-
Most interesting there WC. So are you now a beater for the wild bovine in the Northern part of California? I'll see if I can't follow up on the Henri Vincenot cat.
Kind Rergards,
Raimey
rse
I failed to include an image of the datastring 1885.4911 which is an effort to mimic canonnier Léopold Bernard.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
1885 is the year? 4911 is a serial number.
It is the serial number for the tube set, not for the gun.
Bernard's numbering system was sequential for all barrel sets made.
Didier Drevet was probably no different.
Towards the end of Bernard's company, he replaced dates with code letters (a la Belgian proof mark date code), probably so that customers would not complain that the tubes were much older than the gun. It is common to have one year difference between the tubes and the gun manufacturing dates.
I have seen on this board an example where the gun was much younger than the tube-set (by over 10 years IIRC).
It was common for the barrel maker to make a barrel assembly and sell it with ribs and all to the gunmaker. This is probably OK for shotguns, but not OK for a double rifle. My Rieger DR with Bernard barrels was not regulated whatsoever. JJ put that to rest 115 years after it was first sold .
Best regards,
WC-
Hi Raimey,
I don't hunt wild cattle, but wild quails, hare, pigs and deer.
It's not uncommon for me to walk 10 miles in the process.
However, my 20 Ga Granger is pretty light, so it does not have a sling...
My 12 Ga Ideal does however.
Best regards,
WC-
By the way, it's interesting to see that the Choke indication is abnormal, language wise. One should write "Pas pour balles" instead.
Seems to be a word for word translation of the British proof mark of that time "Not for Ball".
Choke with an accent is also weird as it is grammatically a "participe passe" same construction as "choked" but this would mean that "choke" is a French verb which it is not. The proper translation would have been "etrangle" with accents.
Seems to show that Drevet wanted to copy the latest fashionable trends which were probably British at the time.
Best regards,
WC-
However, my 20 Ga Granger is pretty light, so it does not have a sling...
A Granger!!! As in Georges Granger??
The shotgun arrived yesterday. That Texas gunshop deserves credit for quick shipping, and they sent it in a decent Bob Allen gun case all for $30.
The shotgun is beautiful, has great lines (extraordinarily slender and quick pointing), good bores, no pitting, but there is actually a problem with the fore-end. That rather cool, thumb-release opener at the front end does not actually work. The fore-end will not detach from the action. (See photos 48-50)
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=485895913Oddly enough, despite the fore-end refusing to come apart from the action, you can separate the barrels (and even --after a lot of fiddling-- put them back together.
Hammers have got working half cocks. Springs are strong. But everything is extremely stiff, so, beyond the fore-arm's mechanics needing repair, I'd say the locks, triggers, and opening parts really need a good lubrication.
For the quality of the gun and the price, I'm not inclined to complain, but I could use a recommendation of a gunsmith able to work on antique high-end doubles.
-----
A bit more info: A few bits of gold inlay are missing. The large gold thingummy on the underside (photo:32) shows significant wear, but is recognizable as a French baron's heraldic chapeau.
I would guess the forend is not designed to come off. Not a rare occurrence on European guns.
Agreed... This forend is not designed to be removable.
Very common indeed...
WC-
How very, very odd! I'd obviously never run into that arrangement before. No leg-of-mutton gun cases for them.
In that case, I can get by without a gunsmith. I'll just trickle in a little gun oil here and there.
Thanks!