I've been corresponding with Dave, and he has agreed to consider the creation of a DIY sub-forum, as long as there is enough interest in it. The purpose of this thread, which will be open for around 30 days, is to judge the degree of interest. Positive as well as negative comments are welcome.

I'll start out by giving my opinion on the subject.

A DIY sub-forum would provide a consolidated source of information for those considering this route. It would save a great amount of time for individuals researching these projects, as information is not only spread out all across the web on these subjects, but much of the specific information discussed previously on this board has gone beyond the one year search limitation.

Not only would a forum provide information on the specific processes, it would also provide a realistic expectation on the degree of expertise of the work involved, allowing people to make a rational decision on whether or not to take the work to a Professional.

I myself, as an amateur restorer had somewhat grandiose plans about performing a wide range of restoration processes. Now, after being a member of this board, I have realized that this is not realistic for an amateur, and have consequentially formed a relationship with a Smith who specializes in doubles. So, an additional purpose of the forum would be to allow professionals to showcase their work as well, allowing the rest of us to truly understand and appreciate the high degree of skill and knowledge required for their work.

This new sub-forum could easily become the "Go To" place for information on restoration of Double Guns. It's my view that accurately performing restoration processes, either as a DIY project or by a professional, will assist to keep our sport alive, and be helpful to pass the appreciation of it on to future generations.

Have at it, all comments are welcome.

Regards
Ken

I would be in favor of that. Most threads are interesting, but a lot of it is from the perspective of the consumer and not that of the workman. It could be a good resource. MKII

In favor here.

Only comment is that I'd like to see more than just doubleguns.

Thanks,
Hoot

sounds like a good idea- but fraught with capacity for negative comments

if it stays on track - it could be educational

I think it sounds like a great idea..over the years there must have been several books worth of interesting reading on stock finishes & bluing/browning formulas alone.
It would be great to have them all organized & in the same place....
go for it!!!
franc

Great idea. I agree with OH - keep the comments positive and constructive. I suspect many of us have guns of little collector value that we'd like to "spruce up" and/or keep them shooting. I'd much rather shoot a tidy old gun than one that wears all of its scars for originality purposes.

yes, yes, and yes!

In agreement think its a good idea.

- Help us recognize who has specialisms within the forum.

- Showcase work.

- Make links within the trade.

- Shows how different people solve different problems.

- Shows vast difference of approach to restorations.

- Shows what an patient amateur might achieve vs a professional.

- What gets put up is entirely up to you, as in you could show before and after and list what you did, or give a full pictorial walk through to a specific process.

Some people might argue loss of business through it.. i would argue that the information to do anything is already out there, some guns don't warrant the expense of professional work but an amateur would probably have a go anyway.

Good call i think.

Sounds like a good idea to me!

Ken, it really needs doing and may help organize this library known as the BBS. I think Dave should appoint someone as Moderator (you?) to keep it tidy and on point.

an after thought- maybe some older posts on this subject could be linked to this new venue to get it started - I sometimes save a thread as a favorite because of the information in there - so that I don't have to search for it

such as this one, because of the stock head repair photos

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=397782&Searchpage=3&Main=34147&Words=stock+%2Brepair&Search=true#Post397782

Great idea, Osthaus. But To do it Dave would have to give the keys to a moderator to unlock and move these threads from the past. He just doesn't have the time to wade through all the posts.

Absolutely. One of the first things to do once the forum is established would be to solicit recommendations from everyone as to what previous threads should be moved to the new forum.

One of the essential rules of the new forum would be in regard to critiques and criticism. All must be constructive, with an alternative presented along with the critique. No "Hit and Run" comments, nor would non-constructive comments posted due to previous personal issues between the two members be tolerated.

Regards
Ken

Since Joe volunteered you, I would second that. Hopefully, it wouldn't add time or expense for the host.

Maybe a read only 'craft' archive subforum that links back to the original thread so some potentially huge contributors can visit their favorite areas without getting lectures about placing the thread in the correct forum, and folks might comment or resurrect threads in its original location.

It could be hugely helpful and unique to preserve pictures that tend to fade away. There're nondiy threads that might be included, engraving styles, rare patents, complicated cnc machining, technical comments about unobtanium guns, and tons of etc., etc.

Thanks in advance for your help. Start digging and noting the good threads, others might pm you with threads to save. Later today a five year old picture may be lost. Just kidding Ken, I think it's a good idea, but potentially time consuming to set up, and likely to require maintenance. Huge potential, but it risks being a small 'club' that withers away if there're rules and hoops to jump through.

Well, I hadn't thought about being the Moderator. I guess I've kind'a inadvertently stepped in that one. I'd be happy to do it.

As long as it's understood that my main function, along with maintaining gentlemanly decorum, would be to facilitate the free flow of information, not to function as some type of "Expert" in my own right. After all, virtually all of my knowledge is second-hand, the vast majority of it coming from this Board.

One note on picture posting. I'm not sure about this, but when someone uses a picture posting site like photobucket, once the picture is removed from the site or the account is closed, it's no longer available for viewing. I think if JPGBOX is used as a Guest, the photo doesn't disappear. If anyone knows different, please post.

Regards
Ken

Great idea Ken, and it sounds like something I'd check almost every day and refer to on a regular basis. A lot of good comments have already been posted on keeping it on point and free from extraneous clutter to simplify searching. I don't know how you keep guys from posting stuff like "Who can remove my barrel dents?" versus, "This is how I remove barrel dents." Only the latter belongs in your proposed sub-forum.

I have used the search function here to find things that are much more than a year old, but it is tough and I always have to play around because I forget how I did it, and then have to re-learn it.

First step would be to ban many of the "How to " videos from YouTube being referenced and linked .

I think that is a great idea, and would add a visit to my daily doublegunshop check in.

Is it possible for one of the computer literate folks to move some of the existing DIY/Build threads to that new forum?

I think it a good idea. I for one do not aspire to be a gunsmith/restorer. It will save some of us from all this "drivel" about 'wantabe' gunsmiths. This is meant to be a constructive response.

In my opinion, one of the most important "Themes" of the forum should be Historical Accuracy, essential to the concept of "Restoration". Hopefully the experts here on the various manufacturers will continue to contribute. For example, in a past thread we discussed original finish for Parkers. For non-custom guns from the factory, shellac (French Polished) was determined to have been used, essentially the same shellac sold by Zinssers today.

Various other threads have discussed British finishes, some recreatable and some not, with members providing recipes and insights on their use. It provided other options than always resorting to a bottle of Tru-Oil, as far as for those concerned with original type finishes.

I hate to do it but there's a real potential fly in the ointment in what I think is essentially a good idea.
As soon as someone posts a "Here's how I do it restoration idea" a bunch of others will chime in with contrary information and the thread will become a conglomoration of My-Way,His-Way,There- Way etc.
I expect this will become very confusing to anyone looking for some basic and straight forward information on a topic such as "How to restore the finish on a shotgun stock without stripping it and starting over". I have my own ideas as to how to go about this type of restoration and I'm pretty sure the's a lot of alternative ideas on here as well.
I've seen ideas posted on this forum that I've thought were excellent and others well: Not so much. Who is going to be responsible for sorting this out?
Jim

In a DIY forum, there would be the ability to have threads that are much more specific, in regard to materials and techniques. Instead of a generic "Stock Finishing" thread, there's opportunity to break the processes down by materials and techniques used. For instance, individual threads regarding "Tru-Oil", "French Polish", "Linseed Oil", "Traditional English Finish", as well as specific processes used by manufacturers could be created. That way each thread wouldn't become a debate over personal preferences. These threads then would be easily referenced.

Threads can also be clearly differentiated by the specific terms of "Repair", "Refinish" and "Restoration". For example, it would be inappropriate to describe use of Tru-Oil on a Vintage gun as "Restoration", but would certainly qualify as "Refinishing".

In many cases, a non traditional finish on a Vintage gun may be more appropriate. If one has a Parker, and intends to use it quite a bit, making the decision to use a more modern finish may be appropriate. It's certainly arguable that a Tru-Oil finish would be more practical than a traditional shellac and wax one, which would require much more attention to maintain.

Well: IMO It's worth a try. We'll have to wait see what happens.
Jim

I would love to see something like this. I am not a regular contributor, but I am a constant reader.

I dunno Ken. I'd still suspect you have to let them happen instead of make them happen. We're not likely to get connect the dots on how to build a best gun, but little tidbits can be taken here and there and applied to completely different projects. Every now and then, an experienced smith will pop in with a quick comment that's clearly off the topic direction, but might be an ah ha moment. You may not want to turn that possibility off.

Absolutely. I'm not suggesting we create "Holy Writ", just provide a place for an exchange of information in a congenial way. If someone wants to know how things were done at the factory when their gun was made, the information would be available. Then, if the person wants to uses different processes that have been discussed on the board, it's entirely a personal choice.

Try it and see what happens.Bobby

I think it's a wonderful idea.

Yes please

Yes! And I love the idea of consolidating older threads in the new forum.

My first thought was yes! Because I do believe in sharing “how to” information because if you don’t it will eventually disappear. Then a second thought crept in, there always seems to be someone prepared to pick holes with what you say or they come up with a sideways swipe at you for what I see as no other reason other than you are a Brit. My feeling is life now is far too short for this type of one upmanship, because of this do I really want to give hard won information away. Or maybe I am getting a thinner skin in my old age?
My jury is still out but on balance I may give it a try and see what happens.

The decorum of Constructive Criticism must be enforced. This includes petty squabbles over semantics and lexicons. If someone truly wants to practice "One Upmanship", they'd better be prepared to make their case and deliver the goods, in a polite, factual, documented way. There's already way too much of that on the Net in general, the anonymity makes it easy to make subjective, negative comments in order to feed egos.

There is clearly a difference between subjective criticism and constructive critique. People unable to communicate in a polite, respectful manner appropriate for adults simply should not post.

Perhaps I'm looking at the potential of this Forum the same way I look at doubles in need of Restoration. I think of what it could be, a collection of information validated by the expertise and experience of others, the premier source on the internet. I think that so much information will be available, it'd be a crime to load it up with extraneous pap and claptrap.

I think it is a great idea. I do most of my own work. Some quite nice and some not so much! I sometime Get praise ; sometime not so much. I hope this will be a place where we can tell about and show our successes and our failures. Our posts could show a better way to do something or a way not to do it. Some readers will not like some articles, or will know a better way to accomplished what is shown. Anyone should accept constructive comments But please; no ridicule.

Leave it here! If we keep moving special interests out to sub-forums there'll be little left to read in the main forum...Geo

I get what damascus said about having holes picked in one's suggestions or methods, but it must be remembered that while there may only be one correct finish for a lower grade Parker restoration, there may be dozens of ways to temper a spring or remove a stuck screw. The tiny minority who might not recognize the British contribution to double gun development aren't worth the powder to blow them up.

Ken, I've suggested you buy the four volumes of Brownell's Gunsmith Kinks knowing your interest in repair and restoration. I'd kind of like to see this sub-forum become almost a digital version of that, mostly devoted to doubles. In every subsection of the Kinks books, whether it be blueing, stock finishing, checkering, engraving, machining, etc., there are dozens of tips and techniques and different methods used by different gunsmiths. So much of the information is applicable to other things besides gun work. It is up to the reader to decide which sounds best or most feasible.

I'm always concerned about amateur gunsmiths who don't know their own limitations and screw up guns worse than they were before their well intended repair or restoration, but you'll always have that.

Amen to that one!

This forum saved me from making what I'd now consider obvious mistakes. I had to dig here and across the web, but I had the patience to do it. Other's may not, so consolidation of information here would hopefully result in old doubles not being "Buggered" by a lack of knowledge.

I can imagine threads like: "I'm considering buying an Old Double, what condition points should I look at?" and "Now I've bought my first Old Double, what should I do?".

Take the example of proper Screwdrivers/Turnscrews. Understanding their necessity and proper use is paramount, something a newbie may not realize. Think of all the guns out there that have been damaged by using improper tools.

Thanks, SDH, your method of making'em is awesome. I haven't bought your book YET, I'm waiting for when I meet you in person. I consider myself obligated to do so.

Keith, I've got the first "Gunsmith Kinks" book on the way..

Should this not apply to every forum?

Wishing it to be will not make it a reality. Making it against the law may give us the means to deal with it, but it doesn't prevent it's happening.

Watch the news... anonymity is an invitation to rampant disrespect.

Ken, I predict you'll be very happy with it. When I loaned my volumes to a friend who got into sporterizing Mausers a few years back, he returned them to me after a couple months and told me he was giving them back now because he realized that he needed to order his own set or he would never return mine. Of all the gunsmithing books I have, I think I've gotten more out of the Kinks books than any others. I searched long and hard and paid over $100.00 for a copy of the out of print and oft-recommended "Amateur Gunsmithing" by Mills and Barnes. What a disappointment!

Seems like a good idea, though one more forum to remember to visit.

Of course someone will need to dig up all of the old, old threads by Oscar and Russ Ruppel.

And this assumes all will follow it to where ever it's moved. A possible new forum could have its own unique topics, but I think the decision by a poster to put a project in a different forum should be respected and just linked to a new forum.

If a diy forum is a small club for home smiths, why would a best gun smith want their thread moved out of the view of those who they believe are their audience/potential customers. There're times I think it is fortunate to get some interesting info, I still don't think we should make it too difficult.

Linking would certainly serve the same purpose. I wish we could go really back to when I was posting in the 1990's and the board was Gunshop.Com. I remember Oscar Gaddy and others posting. I greatly regret it was long before my interest in Restoration. I did recall their posts, so I knew that the information was out there.

Hey Ken, I'm bringing this back to the top and also suggesting that you pose the same question in the Classic and Custom Rifle Forum here since some of the guys who share a lot of great gunsmithing and repair and restoration techniques may not post here or even read this forum very often.

No real negatives yet, just the very legitimate concern of keeping things on topic, which is a problem no matter if you are here or on an automotive or antique tractor forum. Would it be against the rules for me to mention that Hillary Clinton is an anti-gun Socialist? Just kidding!

Can't stand childish bickering but constructive criticism must always be welcome most of us have a specialism in something so if your an expert in stock repairs and you see someone's DIY repair you don't like then, then either lie through your teeth and say its lovely, don't say anything at all, or explain in an appropriate way how you might have approached the issue,

generally here i have been fortunate not to witness much bickering but we all have different idea's about how to go about things and all understand that practicable gunsmithing can be performed at a variety of levels, while best quality work is always going to be preferred sometimes its just no viable economically or otherwise it should and could be a good resource.

I am all for it. Great idea!

Great idea.

I let the other Forums know.

Regards
Ken

This seems like a great idea. I just hope you all use small words that I can understand.

Might want to also include a pinned FAQ with a glossary for the new and newer members just starting out.

The more this bulletin board is fractured into special interest groups the smaller its following will become. I love German guns. I really ought to visit that sub-forum some time...Geo

I think it's a great idea. I believe it would draw a lot of interest and participation, as well as readers only.

George,

Thanks for your imput. So far, you are the only one in the "Nay" column..

Regards
Ken

Nothing personal Ken. Sometimes I'm a little contrarian. Sometimes I'm even wrong...Geo

I think it is a good idea, and I would be happy to
contribute when I could.

Great idea.

I think it's a great idea. I work on my guns a little and would appreciate trading tips with like minded folk.
Jeff

I'm not asking for the subthread,but if it is started, everyone knows I won't keep my nose out of other peoples business.
Mike

Nothing wrong with that, as long as it's presented in a constructive way.

Regards
Ken

I'd like to see techniques, tools and completed projects with all steps shown.

If you want to see a website where they do DYI really well go here -
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/index.php
They have great tutorials with pics of all kinds of smithing. Yes, it's all rimfire rifles and pistols, but it's a great site. This site is also very well administered - no bullying or silly arguments allowed.
Regards,
Jeff

I think that it is a great idea. I also think that doubles, singles, drillings, etc. should be included.
Since it sounds as if the posts would be by both amateurs and professionals, maybe it should simply be called the gunsmithing forum.

I used to really like the American Rifleman, back when they had good DIY articles on 'smithing, like the 1950-70s. Now its just dumb ads for bogus "collector" 1911s and newer AR15 clones. Probably has something to do with nervous lawyers worrying about klutzes who tuned triggers down to 5 oz, and shot their foot off. Rifle Magazine put out a great book on tips and projects and I did a lot of them, including making my own bullet mold, and making a Low Wall conversion to 357 Maximum, AKA 38 Extra Long. Gave up doing color case hardening when I found out that bone and charcoal in a sealed pipe at 1400 deg makes cyanide gas....wife thought I was cremating the dog out back from the smell.

Actually, the bone and wood charcoal mix produces mainly carbon monoxide gas in the crucible at operating temperature, and a very small amount of phosphine gas during the quench. Cyanide gas is not produced.

All good issues for a DYI forum.

Got the cyanide info from a textbook on steel, and I used to add bits of burnt leather to the mix for the nitrogen. The weird thing is, the Low Wall receiver that I case colored back around 13 years ago came out too dark, I thought from a hairline crack in the crucible/pipe. But now it's looking a lot nicer!

Molten sodium cyanide immersion is one method of carburizing mild steel, it has nothing to do with the charcoal pack method.

Bone charcoal and wood charcoal heated in a crucible will produce mainly carbon monoxide. Wood charcoal alone (that has been heated to the point that all volatiles are consumed) will produce nothing, it's pure carbon.

What function does the "nitrogen from the burnt leather" serve?

Case-hardening is not magic and the chemical reactions that yield the hardened surface and the colors are quite well understood. I have no idea why people persist with witchcraft-like case-hardening recipes/methods.