http://m.diariovasco.com/economia/empres...13001222-v.html

New kids on the block, eh?

Ah, Larry is indulging in the gun rag writers’ penchant for trying to make the pretentious sound important.

Gentlemen, any fellow who gives preference to a company based on how long that company’s name has been in use is just involved in a variation of “buy the name and not the gun.”

Ummmm.......Kyrie, we aren't a Spanish speaking country, at least not yet. I'm guessing most folks on this forum can't even read this thing. Why post something a majority can't even read?? Are you going to translate this for us?

No habla espanol.
Jeff

Buzz, easy enough to use Google Translate, bablefish, or other translating sites.

https://translate.google.com/

I don't think it can be cut as finely as that, Kyrie. You can't say "any fellow" is "just involved" in buying the name if he is attracted to a company with a long and distinguished record of producing quality.

James Purdey & Sons, established 1814. Yep another of those "buy the name" deals. I'm sure they have not influenced anything in the shotgun world in the 200 years they have been around, and certainly not in Spain. And this is just one of the many English firms with well over 100 years in business and their guns are still in use today. But, it matters not.

Greg

After a century of being in business and distributing to a world-wide market, I find it amazing AyA only built 250 guns last year. Equally amazing is how they and the other Spanish doublegun makers can generate enough profit on their volume to pay their employees and keep their doors open.

Compare that to AyA's historic production numbers published in Spanish Best-that is really scary. It also makes you wonder how many Grulla made last year.

It also makes one wonder how many Arrieta built and if they'll ever build a Model 578 with 7-pin locks. You know, the 7-pin 578 in Kyrie's World that he claims are so ubiquitous. Maybe he can help us out with that.

I haven't owned my #2 AyA 16 GA for a century, nevertheless Aniie and I celebrate this 6 lb. wonder very bird season.

Well, let's see . . . a century's worth of history. Not bad. However, that would mean that AyA was not one of those Spanish makers churning out all those guns used for driven shooting prior to WWI . . . since that fracas began in 1914. Still in search of examples of some of those--that are still being used today, as are thousands of British guns from the pre-WWI era.

I think after Grulla went to Merkel to import guns and Merkel was not as good a partner as the independent dealers they had before their presence here in the States has diminished a good bit.The few I have seen and handled were nice guns,especially the later ones.

Beats mine all to hell! Love it!

Stay well!

Greg

For Larry, King, and Greg, thank you. I could not have asked for a better demonstration of the mentality behind “buy the name”, or for a more revealing look at the mindset from which that mentality grows. My condolences, for you are destined to pay more for guns than is necessary and get less than you expect. Sad, but a choice everyone gets to make.

For wild skies, thanks for the comic relief of your harping on the seven pin 578. You have seen catalog pictures and pictures of any number of 7 pin Arrieta 578 shotguns which your own research turned up. I get a hoot out of watching your mental gyrations to avoid facing the evidence of your own research. Keep up the good work :-)

Getting back to more interesting things, that article (puff piece of the first order that it is) had several interesting things in it. There is a saying that “Eibar was born in Barcelona”, and the people who actually read the article may now understand why that saying exists and how very true it is.

Has nothing to do with "buying the name", Kyrie. Simply referring back to your earlier contention about all those pre-WWI Spanish guns . . . none of which could have been made by AyA, since per your own post, the company did not exist prior to WWI.

Still in search of some of those Spanish antiques to compare to British antiques from the same period. I happen to own one of those. W. Sumners of Liverpool, 20ga, Damascus barrels. Passed reproof (3 tons) sometime between the mid-50's and the mid-80's. Bore diameter still spot on at .615, still in regular use with low pressure smokeless powder loads. Not a "name" maker by any means, but an example of a pre-WWI British double still in use--as are thousands like it, many of which also do not carry a famous name.

You err in lumping "all" into a particular mindset of your choosing, Kyrie. On the evidence of inquiries here every day, most members discriminate far beyond "just" buying the name. There's voluminous experience on this board.

It appears that Lion Country Supply/Double Shotgun.com is now taking orders for custom Grullas. Last time I checked, you had to order directly from Grulla, which I am sure did not help their US sales.

King, Kyrie has a different approach. Instead of "just buying the name", he just buys the country of origin. Seems to me one doesn't make much more sense than the other . . . unless you're focusing maybe on collectible guns from country X, Y, or Z.

Yes, Merkel is not a importer any longer and the pricing for the dealers is not what it once was as I understand it.
Bloody shame too, Grulla build some nice guns and gave a good bang for the buck compared to some of the others.I think Arrizabalaga is now under Arietta ,lots of changes in the Spanish builders ,perhaps time for another book by someone to update the current market/manufactures

Excellent point! "Buy the country, not the name" I like it, except, any country but, England, Italy, Germany etc unless the name starts with S.

Be Good!

Greg

Ah, Larry. Never met a wrong conclusion you wouldn't jump to.

I buy firearms for some combination of reasons, including but not limited to, workmanship, utility, interesting design, historical significance. I have guns from, to name a few places, Argentina, Austria, Brazil, Czech Republic, Czechoslovakia, Germany (Imperial, East, West, Unified), Hungary, Italy, Peoples' Republic of China, Russia, Soviet Union, and Turkey.

And I've not wasted a dime buying a company name :-)

You got any 7-pin 578s?

But no British, nor French? Strange omissions, especially given the very clear heritage of the major designs used by current Spanish makers. Looks like you ought to be moderating an anything-but-British shotgun forum.

Cost is one good reason to buy, or not to buy--assuming equivalent quality, of course. Which might lead one to ask why one should pay more for a new Spanish boxlock, based on the same design as a Webley & Scott Model 700 . . . when one can buy a very nice used W&S for less? Why waste one's dime buying Spanish, now that prices have gone up significantly? And if one is looking for a 12ga game gun, the Brit gun will also be lighter--if that's what you're looking for. And many of them still in regular use, after half a century plus. Nothing like the pre-WWI guns, of course . . . which seem to be scarce as proverbial hens' teeth on this side of the pond. Where one can find thousands of Brit guns that have passed the century mark.

There you go again gun rag writer! Buying the name - Webley & Scott! When will you ever learn!

Greg

I know Greg . . . I know. What I have learned, writing for some pretty sharp gun rag editors, is that I'd better have my ducks in a row when I submit an article. If I claim there are 7 pin 578's, I'd better be able to link an actual photo. If I talk about all the Spanish guns that were around before WWI and want to compare how good they were to the British guns from that era . . . well, I have no trouble finding the Brit guns, and finding lots of people who shoot them on a regular basis. Likewise, I can find French and German guns from that era without much problem. Century old Spanish guns? Or people who regularly shoot century-old Spanish guns? There I have a problem.

They can build very good made to measure game guns in Spain that quite amazingly commoner with good job can actually afford.

I wonder about lack of real old Spanish guns. Was it that they were not imported into America like old Greener guns they disappeared during Spanish Civil War or simply fell apart from hard use. Obviously our armies did not rescue Spain from Hitlerism so their guns could not be freed and brought back here in "green duffel bags". I seem to recall in centuries past Spanish barrels like their old swords were considered among worlds best. Given that I have hard time believing that well made Spanish guns simply fell apart from hard use.

What surprises me, Jager, is that it's not uncommon for Americans to go to Spain and order a "bespoke" gun. I'm surprised that people with an interest in Spanish doubles don't seem to seek out and purchase fine vintage Spanish guns and bring them back to the States. None for sale in Spanish gunshops? If one wants a Purdey from 1900, there's no problem finding one. Equivalent Spanish gun from 1900? Given the wide interest in doubles of all kinds on this forum, I find it surprising that no one is raising a hand and saying "I have one of those". Or "I've seen many of them in Spain."

Hi Jager, good question. Just to set things straight, this post is referring to Spanish guns prior to 1900, nothing modern, just vintage guns. That there was a gun trade in Spain over 100 years ago is not in doubt by any here. In terms of shotguns however, I believe the trade was much smaller than what Kyrie states. Of course the Spanish made shotguns, as to the quality of these guns, who knows, many have asked for examples and got none. If these guns do exist, where are they? One point to consider is Kyrie has stated that the Spanish really don't take care of their guns, if this is so, then I guess they fell apart thru abuse rather than use. I say this as I have not been able to find any reference to these massive driven shoots in Spain that he has referred to. If the guns have fallen apart then the original quality must have been poor or the owner just didn't give a damn and let the gun go to hell. The other thing to consider, if these guns were made in quantity they should be found in gunshops throughout Spain as L.B. has stated. I've looked at some of the big gunshop websites (Spanish) and I've not found any. In more modern times, King Alfonso XIII (who came of age and enthroned in 1905) was a huge fan of James Purdey & Sons. He bought several from the firm and was regarded by Purdey as the "finest friend this firm has ever had" (paraphrasing here). If the Spanish made such great shotguns, why did he buy English shotguns? I'm sure he did have some Spanish guns (made specifically for him, not the masses) but you would think he'd support his own countries gunmakers before a foreign maker....if they were any good. He did grant Royal Warrants to Victor Sarasqueta, but he used Purdeys almost exclusively, bit of a conundrum here.

Anyway, like others, I'm waiting to see an example of a fine vintage Spanish gun. But I'm not holding my breath!

Greg

Couple horseflies in your yogurt there, Larry. One, is, you can't get a nice, new 700 built to order. Yes, there are English boxlocks available new, but, you can arm your 4 man hunting camp with Spanish boxlocks for the price of one. Two, the Spanish design might be a copy, but, it can be had with some improvements, disc set strikers being a HUGE improvement over integral striker/tumblers, for us mere mortals who don't rent our basements out to a skilled gunsmith, anyway. I've seen two good English guns sidelined for months over broken strikers. I have been told there exist 700s with disc set strikers, but, I've never seen one.
I've seen them on a 500. Yes it was light, and had a 2 1/2" level of proof. And, it was really old, too. A few of us have moved on from our frail, old, lightly proofed, but, still expensive, gun phase.
You can specify some nice options on a Spanish boxlock, self opening (not my cup of tea) hidden third fastener, steel shot proof, 3" proof, second set of barrels, fitted case, whatever you are willing to pay for. A used 700 is a nice gun, but, they ain't free, and you can get a lot closer to bespoke out of Spain, for realistic money.
Until someone very knowledgable, who is from Spain, tells me there were no companies building guns there, prior to WWI, I am going to believe the Spaniards did have an arms industry. I doubt the queen of Spain sent Christopher Columbus to England for armament for his first big adventure, after all. Civilian arms production would grow quite comfortably out of military production.


Best,
Ted

As the gun ragger once more jumps to a fallacious conclusion.


Speaking of cost, I can buy any number of very nice, used, condition VG to like new, Spanish box lock SxS shotguns for between $400 and $600. How much does one of your W&S box locks go for?

You, sir, are right on target.

Two things squeezed the guns, and especially the older guns, out of Germany, France, and England. For Germany and France, that thing was foreign invasion and looting. For England, it was economic collapse and a hundred years of confiscatory taxation that forced the well-to-do to sell whatever they had to make the estate taxes.

Spain was never invaded nor occupied in the 20th century and so never looted by enemies or allies.

The only occasion I know of when confiscatory taxation had any impact on Spanish gun ownership was circa 2006, when a yearly per gun tax was established. That flushed tens of thousands of Spanish ‘tax forfeiture’ shotguns out and into the hands of the Civil Guard. This was the first time I saw any number of the older (i.e. pre-Civil War) shotguns outside of estates. The really nice guns were quickly snapped up by Spanish collectors and the Spanish gun shops that cater to those collectors. I was lucky enough to get a beautiful Joaquín Fernández model 15000 (‘Oliva’) made circa 1920 from these guns. I missed an outstanding Eduardo Schilling model 28 (circa 1911) because I hesitated, and let pass a Schilling model Eustaquio and model 310 (circa 1890) because I don’t care for hammer or under lever guns.

Many of the more recent, and more common, guns were imported into the USA (primarily by CAI) and sold cheap. At one point I bought four guns from CAI, sight unseen, for $167.87 each, delivered. One of these four guns was a wonderful VS box lock, proof year 1939, and another was a mint condition Garbi box lock. The third and fourth guns were a mid-range ZH side lock and an entry level Jabe box lock.

Bottom line: 99.9% the really nice guns made from about 1880 on are still there, and still in some estate or a collector’s inventory.

Couple things:

Quote; "Spain was never invaded nor occupied in the 20th century and so never looted by enemies or allies"

Really. I suppose the Civil War had no effect on the Spain. Both sides just tossed flowers at each other. The Basque region was Republican. The Nationalist's devastated the region. Both sides looted and destroyed large parts of Spain. Historical fact! To say that Spain was untouched by war (foreign or domestic)is ridiculous! The Nationalist's took over the gun making firms/shops for their own purposes, and making shotguns was not one of them.

Quote: "Bottom line: 99.9% the really nice guns made from about 1880 on are still there, and still in some estate or a collector’s inventory."

Then show us.

Greg

You can perhaps point to sources in this country for such guns . . . with the same features a W&$ 700 has (ejectors, to start with)? Awaiting the source of said treasure trove. And if they're in 12ga, can you find any in the sub-6 1/2 range, where it's not hard to find British game guns?

As for those guns you missed, I think I noted ONE pre-WWI gun. Surely, if someone were interested in a vintage Spanish gun from 1900, one should be able to find one--if they're around, in any kind of numbers. And if they can be had at significantly lower prices than Brit guns from the same era, then I think there'd be a ready market for them in this country. As for features you don't like . . . the Brits were doing hammerless ejector guns well before 1900. Many of which are still in regular use.

There must be some REALLY serious collections in Spain, if those gun numbers approach anything like the number of Brit guns from 1880-1914 that are still in regular use . . . not to mention the ones that are in collections here, the UK, or elsewhere. That are as invisible to the public as are those phantom Spanish guns.

Ted, the Spanish were making a lot of military rifles back then. The Spanish Mauser was a superior weapon to our own standard issue 30-40 Krag in the Spanish-American War . . . but of course it was a German design. They do know how to copy good designs, no debating that! And no debating they made shotguns. Just a question of how many they made, how many survived, and where they are. As Greg pointed out, there was a lot of nastiness in Spain during the 30's, and the Basque region was on the losing side. But I'm still not quite buying the idea that, assuming there were all that many Spanish guns of very high quality, used for driven shooting as they were in England, some of them would not have shown up in this country--unless, for whatever reason, a whole lot of them don't exist any more. The Brits do have the advantage not only of not having been invaded since the 18th century, but also not having done much fighting on British soil in close to 3 centuries now.

You check prices on the AyA 4/53 lately, Ted? You can get a really nice W&S 700, maybe even cased, for about the same price as a nice used 4/53. Which would I take? Well . . . a good friend bought one of those Arrieta 2" 12's. Much more expensive gun. Nice that it did have disc-set strikers, because it had broken strikers almost immediately. I had a pair of mid-grade A&N boxlocks from the 30's with disc-set strikers. W&S made. They're nice features--especially if you're likely to break a striker. Those guns also weighed right at 6 1/4# apiece with 28" barrels. That's not much more than the weight of Spanish 2" 12's. So what you buy depends on what features you like. But then that Spanish 2" did have a modern 850 bar proof . . . which I guess is kinda nice to have, but also kinda defeats the purpose of weight reduction, which is what a 2" 12 is supposed to be all about.

No question what you can do bespoke out of Spain . . . NOW. That's not up for debate. What we're questioning is the output of the Spanish industry compared to the British 100 years or more ago, and how many survive today.

It’s just amazing the degree to which a gun rag writer can be ignorant. On-line auction houses, Larry, on-line auction houses. You’ve heard of those haven’t you? Sites like Gun Broker? I just did a quick query on Gun Broker and came up with a dozen very nice, used, condition VG to like new, Spanish 12 gauge box lock SxS shotguns for between $400 and $600.

See? It really isn’t hard if you bother to look.

You avoided my question on the cost of one of your W&S box locks. So I just did a query on W&S model 700 12 gauge box locks on Gun Broker and Guns International. They are priced between $1,800 and $4,000. You’re probably math challenged, so let me do the numbers for you. Your W&S 700 12 gauge box lock is between four and ten times as expensive as one of the Spanish box lock 12 gauges.

And yes, some of the Spanish shotguns have ejectors. Some also have single, selective, triggers, and are factory cut for choke tubes.

Looks like your W&S 700 12 gauge box lock is less gun for a lot more money. But you don’t care about that; you’re buying the name and not the gun, right?

The subject is vintage Spanish guns, not modern guns. I've seen some of those great $400 to $600 guns. For the most part they are low end guns that can in no way compare to a 700 or similar gun, no matter the maker. These "gems" are cheap imports and to be honest, pieces of junk.

When someone tosses out a number like 99.9% of fine 1880's and on guns are in some estate or in a collection, raises a red flag with me. To me it's someone blowing smoke and can't produce any examples. You have been asked to produce examples of vintage Spanish guns and so far have not. You always change the subject or try and side track the issue. It's time to you know what or get off the pot.

Pretty broad brush you are stroking there with, Greg. This is my $400 "Piece of Junk":



Disc set strikers, a very well fitted hidden third fastener, 3" chambers. Based on actual experience two friends have had with their 700s, I'd take it before either. Break the striker/tumbler in a 700, and you are down for the season, brother, until the gunsmith gets around to hogging a new one out for you. My gun has it's original strikers in it, but I have a spare set all ready to go. It works every time I pull the trigger, so far, anyway. No ejectors, as I don't care for them, or single triggers.

I don't believe the Uggy model 30 changed all that much from the late 1940s, until, say, now, but the Falcon version came with the afore mentioned little extras that current production guns don't have. No big deal. Even without the extras, a model 30 is a great gun, and I'd still buy one in front of a 700.

Best,
Ted

Hi Ted, well perhaps I have and perhaps not. Your gun is an exception. I know I used to have one. While it was a good gun, mine had problems. Light primer strikes more often than not. The pins were not mushroomed, but I guess the spring was weak , why I don't know. Anyway, IMHO the Model 30 is a plain basic BLNE nothing fancy, but I'd take a 700 over it any day. Guess this is were we differ. I've never had any striker or spring problems with any of my Brit guns, to include a J. Blanch built in 1886 or so. I've never had any ejector problems either (I like ejectors, in fact all my hammerless guns are ejector guns). If you've seen some of those $400 specials someone likes so well, you'd know what I'm taking about. I guess sometimes one does use a broad brush to get a point across. Anyway, best of luck to you and your Model 30.

Best

Greg

Well Kyrie . . . I guess our definition of "very nice" is different . . . or else perhaps you didn't look at the descriptions of that treasure trove of Gunbroker guns you tout so highly.

Here's what my search on Gunbroker turns up, for used Spanish sxs:

I find a total of 8 guns between $4-600. (I actually broadened the criteria a bit: From $350-700.) 2 of them are 10 gauges. (If you want a cheap 10ga sxs, Spanish is an OK way to go.) There's a 26" 12ga for $425 . . . sounds good until you spot that 12 1/2" LOP. Thought I had a real winner with a Stoeger Zephyr for $ 700 . . . until I saw the 24 1/2" barrels. Then there's a decent looking Uggie for $700 . . . but it has a very visible crack (repaired, it says--looks like with Elmer's glue!) in the toe of the stock. And a "light" ZH 12ga, at only $475 . . . although "light" is defined as 7 pounds. And another Zephyr 12ga for $535 . . . with rust on the water table. And it looks as if several of these Spanish sweethearts are stocked with top grade Iberian beech. Sorry . . . not a winner in the bunch. If I want a gun for that kind of money, I'm going to look around for an Ithaca SKB 100 12ga somewhere around the top end of your price range. (Which, by the way, is pretty much a Japanese copy of a W&S 700.)

But hey Kyrie . . . thanks for the trip through the Spanish junkyard. There's an old saying that goes "The devil is in the details." Looks to me like you missed a whole flock of devils in your gunbroker search.

Ted, you found a pretty good bargain there. Take a look at what I found, going through Kyrie's "bargain basement" inventory. There are a few out there, but a gun like that for $400 would be an unusual find these days. I found a nice AyA 20ga extractor gun, made for Sears, at a recent gun show. Also very nice . . . but more like 12ga weight because it was a magnum with a BT forend. (Not a bad idea for a gun to be heavy if it's bored for magnums.) Just a little more than you paid. But given that a new Model 30 will run you around $16-1700 (and thanks to the Internet, people are more aware of prices these days than they used to be, especially on pretty common guns like Uggies), you're not likely to find one for that any more. Twice that in good condition would be a good price. And frankly, for twice that I'd do the same thing I suggested to Kyrie: I'd look for an SKB 100. I've had a bunch of those, never known of one to break a striker. (Never had a W&S 700 break a striker either--although I've put WAY more rounds through SKB's.)

And, as Greg pointed out, this whole discussion started with a focus on VINTAGE Spanish guns, because Kyrie made clear reference to all the guns that were used for driven shooting in Spain before WWI. Which, given the fact that there are plenty of those "delicate" Brit guns from that era still in regular use, begs the question: Where are they? Do they survive in any kind of numbers today? Are a high percentage of them still in regular use? Why is it we don't see some of them circulating in this country? It certainly seems that the Spanish gun lover would enjoy showing up at the range with his 1900-vintage Pedro Jimenez, of a quality equal to maybe a Powell boxlock (or better yet, a "best" sidelock) and showing off to his friends who paid more for old Brit guns.

I don't know where any old Spanish guns are, Larry. But, I'm not ready to say they don't exist simply because I haven't seen them, or don't know where they are. It wasn't that many years ago that we were seeing really beat up model 30s, and other Spanish guns, that were clearly 1940s vintage guns, at super low prices, that jive pretty well with Kyrie's explanation of the tax that was levied on gun ownership in Spain.
I'd be willing to bet that most integral striker/tumbler guns will never fail. But, that doesn't mean I am willing to be holding the bag when one does. That is a complex little part, it takes the gun out of commission on one side, and it will cost just as much for Abe Chaber, or Kirk Merrington, or some other good 'smith to hog one out for an SKB as it would for a Westley Richards, or a 700.
No thanks.
By the way, Larry, I think my gun is right around 6 lbs 7 ozs. It is light enough that I'd never consider letting a 3" round go off in it, not while I was holding it, anyway. I had it vetted and the stock bent when I got it, and this gun is all about practicality. I wouldn't have done those things to a 700, because they cost too much for what they are, which, is really just a generic boxlock, albeit, one made in England.
No problems with mine, Greg, but, like I said, I had it vetted. Did you do that with yours?


Best,
Ted

Hey Ted, well to be honest, I sold it to a friend of mine, and yes, he knew all about the problems, but didn't care. He still has it and it's a closet queen. He never shoots or hunts, but thought a SxS was cool. I used to money to buy a nice Gorosabel, which I later sold also.

Best!

Greg

Ted, I'll be darned if I can recall a flood of Spanish guns from the 40's. I do remember good deals on Spanish guns. . . but then some of them, like the Pride of Spain (aka POS--and it fits!), should have been cheap. But good ones also, like the Dickson Falcon. I found one of those pretty cheap a few years ago too.

How'd you identify those Spanish guns as being from the 40's? The Spanish started using date codes just about the same time proof became obligatory, back in the 20's. A Spanish double prior to 1955 will have a date code that's just a single letter. From 55 on, they added an asterisk plus a number. A*1 is 1955, etc. I can't recall looking at any Spanish guns with a single letter date code. Maybe I'm misremembering, but I always check stuff like that if a gun really catches my interest.

Uggies tend to be pretty solid guns. So are the V. Sarasquetas--most of the ones we see in this country being older Stoeger imports. (Even nicer ones aren't Stoeger imports.) But you can also run into unexpected problems with Spanish guns that cost several thousand dollars, like my friend's Arrieta 2" that broke strikers. So good thing it had bushed strikers. But good ones, cheap . . . not so much any more. As Kyrie's gunbroker collection establishes. Take a look, Ted. Anything there you'd buy for $400? Or even $700?

I have seen many of these 400-600 used Spanish boxlocks, and thats about all they were ever worth.

These seen to all have about the same issues:
The polishing on the barrels was done with about 220 grit and then blued. The checkering looks like it was done by blind monkeys. The barrels are wavy. The chambers can be rough from poor polishing. The wood is, well what can I say. The trigger pulls can be off the map.They are just rough guns. Are there exceptions to the rule, yes. Do they go bang, yes. If all you ever wanted in life was a 500 shotgun, then go for it. (Like the $4000 911 Targa) My grandmother said "I would rather a little of something good that alot of something not so good".

John
Quality Arms

PS: I had a very good friend who passed, he would buy anything if was cheap enough. Anything that I just could not get rid of I would put in a pile and when he came to town, knowing he would buy it if I priced it cheap. I swear that he would buy a tird on a stick if was cheap.

Larry,
As I recall, it was easy to spot a recent Spanish import, after the tax went on them, in Spain. I identified them the same way you would-date code on the flats. The guns I remember looked used, hard used, and had a modern laser dot importers mark burned into the tubes. They drove the price of guns that were here, down, for a year or two. I freely admit I knew nothing about the tax in Spain at the time, and just bought an Uggy that was priced to compete with the stuff being dumped, here.
I only took second looks at Uggies, but, there were others, with names that didn't mean anything to me. From what I saw, I'd say Kyrie was right on about the maintenance Spanish guns receive at home. Looked like the guns were forgotton about after they were put away and cocktail hour began.
There are two model 30s on gunbroker I'd consider today, one just got a bid at $550, and the other has been lingering a long time at $600. That gun is in MN, and if I were in the market, I could take a drive and work something out, face to face, maybe, and save a few bucks. These guns don't have the American Arms "Falcon" extras, 3" proof, hidden third fastener, engraved receiver, but, that is no big deal. If they don't have disc set strikers, I wouldn't buy either, but, I bet they do. The model 30 has been around a long time, Larry, and when I see a Spanish gun for sale locally, it is usually one of them. The fact that a few individuals have had a problem or two with them surprises me no more than a few people having had problems with Red Labels.
Having something really nice is great, but, I've been on hunting trips where we ride in a canoe to get to the other side of the slew we worked up to, often with a Lab or some other pooch in the boat with us. Not condusive to bringing a really nice, or, expensive gun along.
John, the checkering on my Falcon, and also on Keith's, is better than what I have seen on some more recent Grulla and AYA guns. I think both of our guns are early 1970s vintage. The triggers are great. I think mine has bead blasted and black chromed barrels, not sure it is blue. There might be a ripple or two in the barrels, and there might not be.
I doubt the Lab in the canoe cares.


Best,
Ted

Oh boy, looks like John is going to be on someones S list! But he's right. A lot of the imports are pure junk and not worth giving a second look. Ted hit it with the laser engraved import marks. Most of them are on the bbls or even the frame. Can't understand why they didn't mark them under the bbls so the forend would hide them. Oh well.

Best,

Greg

Ted--You found a number of Spanish imports with a pre-1955 (single letter) date code? Surprises me. You're younger than I am, and there have been Spanish guns of all kinds showing up since at least the early 60's. But I can't recall looking at any with the pre-55 date code. I'm sure there are some around, but that flood of Spanish imports didn't occur until the 60's at the earliest. Maybe even a bit later.

To each his own, but if I'm looking for something to beat around, I'll look for either an Ithaca SKB Model 100, which isn't far off from Uggie 30 money especially in 12ga, or a Miroku Daly. Saw one of the latter at a recent gun show, good shape, 12ga, asking price $600. You'll look long and hard to find a Spanish 12 for the same money that I'd rate as good as a Miroku Daly. I would have snapped that one up, but I have an Ithaca SKB 150 that pretty much takes care of my needs for a not so nice 12ga.

Funny the way you didn’t provide any links or auction numbers so people could verify your descriptions. Nice try :-)

Let’s do that again, but with links so people can see the guns.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480954602
Zabala Hermanos, 12 gauge, ejectors, SST, factory cut for (Beretta) choke tubes, $500.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480758464
12 gauge, looks like a 1960s gun, $425.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480753620
Ugartechea, 12 gauge, English stock, toe repair, $560.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480645980
Zabala Hermanos, 12 gauge, ejectors, 1960s gun (tax salvage import), stock showing some cracking at the action, $275.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=479989148
AyA 12 gauge, SST, FI gun, toe damage, $610.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480931558
Another AyA 12 gauge, SST, $499.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=479967184
Another Zabala Hermanos, 12 gauge, Buy It Now $275.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480588802
Another Zabala Hermanos, looks like a 1960s gun, 12 gauge, Buy It Now $350.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480961152
Anoth Zabala Hermanos, 12 gauge, ejectors, SST, factory cut for (Beretta) choke tubes, $599

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=481051134
Laurona, 12 gauge, 1960s gun, $395.

Now let’s compare some of those Webley & Scott model 700 guns Larry is so fond of:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/WEBLEY-SCOTT-12-ga-MODEL-700-S-x-SBOXLOCK.cfm?gun_id=100551592
WEBLEY & SCOTT - MODEL 700 -12 GAUGE - S x S BOXLOCK - 26" BLS. $3,900.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/WEBLEY-SCOTT-MODEL-700-BOXLOCK-12GA-SHOTGUN.cfm?gun_id=100548385
WEBLEY & SCOTT, MODEL 700 12GA SHOTGUN, S/S, 26" BBL, 2 3/4, $3,400

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Webley-Scott-Model-700-12-ga.cfm?gun_id=100534312
Webley & Scott - Model 700 - 12 ga, $2,850.

Do the math, and decide if having the name “Webley & Scott” on a gun is worth an additional $2,000 - $3,000 to you. Because a name is all that extra money is buying you.

Looks like a lot of those guns are made by Zabala. Zabala does not have the best reputation for quality. Heavy for the gauge, heavy or gritty trigger pulls, and not the best handling either. Rather bulky and bbl regulation problems. These ones look like they were made for import to the US and at a lower price point. The Zabala made Brittany series have those problematic ST's. The Falcon has a 12 1/2" LOP. To me it looks like the same low end crap you saw coming out of Spain in the 60's & 70's. The only good ones are the Matadors. So for me, I'll take the 700 or something similar any day. It's nice to pass down a gun to ones heirs that they can use and pass on also. I'm afraid the ones above wouldn't pass muster.

But, out of this whole group, didn't see one Vintage gun......odd

Kyrie, if you really think those guns are equivalent to a Webley & Scott 700, you're either high or completely ignorant as to what attributes make a quality gun. I think your definition of "high quality" is quite different than mine and many others on this forum.

I love Spanish guns... but I love the good ones. Most of the guns you've linked to are what gave Spain the bad reputation it has spent decades over-coming.

Adam

X2

Since Kyrie's gotten all linky on us, maybe he'll link us to an Arrieta 578 with 7-pin locks. But the likelihood of that happening is less than him showing us some of those pre-1900 Spaniards.

I wish you guys would quit discussing the good value of the Webley & Scott 700 series guns on this forum & let the uninformed & those that don't want to be informed continue spending their $$ on new bespoke Spanish boxlocks with disc set strikers and $500 used Spanish junk. As they say, "ignorance is bliss".

If you persist, I'm afraid that you will drive the price up on the W&S guns for those of us who think they are one of the better values out there in the used SxS market.

The only issue with the W&S 700 series is that they don't make them any more so you have to do a little searching to find the configuration & dimensions that will work for you.

I have a friend who would have agreed with you.

Until the first shot of the first day of opening pheasant season, in 2012. When his 700 became a not-so-good deal single shot. And remained that way for two years.

Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one. Facts, are different.

Best,
Ted

Yawn! How many times do we have to hear the story about the W&S 700 with the broken integral striker. I had a friend whose 20 ga Purdey shattered a hammer resulting in a long down time & expensive repair but I don't think this is a common thing with Purdey guns any more than broken strikers are with W&S 700 series guns. If I was looking for an absolutely bullet proof shotgun it wouldn't be a light SxS of any nationality.

At least the Purdey & W&S 700 were worth repairing.

Speaking of facts, the only shotguns I've really had reliability issues with were a Garbi 103 A with a single trigger from the late 80's that continued to double from new & after several gunsmiths worked on it & a Remington 1100 slug gun on which the bolt would not go into battery about once every 10 shots which was never corrected.

Garbi makes some nice guns but that one wasn't. Remington 1100 shotguns are usually very reliable if well maintained & I have another just like it that has never failed to function.

I stopped there . . . enough Spanish crap for one day. As for the comparisons to a W&S 700 . . . seems to me that would be more like bumping heads with an AyA 4/53. Care to do a price check on them, Kyrie? Kinda like cars . . . no problem finding a Ford Focus that's cheaper than a Lincoln Continental. But if you want to compare apples to apples, then you need to stick with apples. If you want to buy a BSA rather than a W&S 700, be my guest. And you'll get what you pay for.

Ted, I was talking with a friend the other day about guns that break. He's a fan of German guns. I pointed out to him that I bought one several years ago that I really liked. Bought it knowing it had a broken striker--and Sauers have a reputation of being pretty tough guns. 2 year repair . . . I'd say that's the owner's fault. Ask the gunsmith when you're likely to get it back. Del Whitman fixed mine. More like a 2 month repair.

And which one of Kyrie's treasures do you really think is a good buy at the listed price?? There are good deals out there on inexpensive Spanish guns, but you need to exercise caution. If you stick with DT/extractors--like your Uggie (and the AyA made for Sears I picked up not too long ago)--that eliminates a couple potential problem areas. If you're going to go cheap, go no frills. And unless you're really lucky, you buy an older gun with disk-set strikers, you're still going to have to find a gunsmith who will make new ones for you. Uggie/AyA, you might luck out and be able to get parts . . . maybe. Or my friend's 2" Arrieta . . . that broke strikers almost immediately. Otherwise, you're probably in the same boat I was in when one of my Army & Navy pair from the 30's broke disk-set strikers. New ones had to be made, and that also takes time.

Oh please, if one has $500 to spend I would look for older extractor guns from: Beretta, Sakaba or B.C. Miroku. Ejector gun or 20ga will bring few hundred more. The Sakaba 'Royal' is poor mans copy of W&S 700. English Webley 700 is better than inexpnisve Spanish double just like French Brie is better than one from great state of Wisconsin.
For <$500 something ugly, basic but long-lasting from GDR, USSR, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia or Hungary can be found.

PS. Another inexpensive bargain is double from well known sewing machine, chainsaw, lawn equipment maker from Sweden that has HVA monogram for name. Those were made of same steel as WWII german tanks and we know they made very good heavy tanks.

Larry,
You don't need a gunsmith to turn strikers for a disc set gun. You just need a guy with a lathe. I have access to a friends tool room lathe, and could make a set in an afternoon if he has a chunk of O1 laying around. I might not even harden them, depending on how much of a hurry I was in, and how big a chunk of steel he had, meaning I could make a few more, the right way, when I had time.

I posted the Spanish guns I thought were good enough deals, two Uggies floating around .5K. I realize there are higher grade Spanish guns, Seniors and Senatores and whatnot, but, that isn't what I have a Spanish gun for. Kyrie has a better grasp of the good, bad, and ugly from Spain, I just stick with my model 30. I would love to find a straight stocked model 30 in 16 gauge, with 28" barrels, but, it seems the cat is out of the bag on those, pricewise. As I already posted, a 700 is just a generic boxlock that people get more money for because it is English. If you need a generic boxlock, there really isn't a good reason to look at anything out of England. A lot of the stuff is beat to crap and they still want 2-2.5K for it. Ridiculous.


An SKB or an Uggy makes more sense. But, buying and using and accumulating doubles often isn't about sense, at the end of the day.

The only Spanish gun I've ever owned is the Uggy. No problems, yet. If I find a weakness or complaint, I'll post it right here.


If I had seen only one gun with a broken striker/tumbler, I might never think about it again. Now, I just know that there is a better, more economical, and easier to repair process that is used by most builders of boxlocks today. I don't believe anyone can make the argument that integral striker/tumblers are superior, in any way, to disc set strikers.

My opinion. But, not a bad one. You might think differently.

Best,
Ted

If one buys Japanese game gun no lathe or afternoon will be necessary at least until over 10,000 cartridges are fired.

Since the great majority of them out there are used, you might just be getting a gun that has been shot that much. Who knows?
Doesn't change the fact that my 8 year old can replace the strikers in the Uggy, and I have a spare set, ready to go.


Best,
Ted

So Ted . . . you don't like Darnes? You don't like any American-made doubles? No disc-set strikers on any of them. Do you know of lots of Darnes with broken strikers? How come you sold those inferior French guns for so long? Or is the disc-set striker thing a recent epiphany?

And you're talking about anecdotes, Ted. How many American guns do you know that have broken strikers? SKB's? Mirokus? Probably good to get opinions from gunsmiths, but I've never had a broken striker on either an SKB, a BSS, or a Daly/Miroku-marked sxs. Can't recall ever hearing any complaints from any people who own those guns. So you know of a case or two of a broken striker on a 700. Something on the order of 30,000 of them were made. (Compare that to a particular Spanish model with comparable bells and whistles--like ejectors--like the AyA 4/53.) And a bunch of them were exported to the States.

As for what's needed to make a new set of strikers, most of us are not lathe operators. And you want to make sure that they're of steel of the proper hardness. Heck, you could make one from a nail in a pinch . . . but I don't know how long it would last. And you get the length wrong, you have either pierced primers (a little too long) or dimpled primers and no boom (too short). If I were you, I'd swap that spare pair you're proud of and try them out with a few boxes of shells. Just to make sure everything is good to go.

Re your evaluation of Kyrie . . . take a look at his interpretation of "the good, the bad, and the ugly". He describes a gun with a 12 1/2" LOP as "very good". OK I guess, if you're a midget or want to add 2" or so worth of extension to the butt. Likewise a couple with busted stocks and very poor repairs. Likewise with a single trigger that's nowhere near as good as on guns like the SKB and the BSS. His evaluation of used Spanish "bargains" speaks volumes. Take a look at his list again. Read the descriptions. Tell me which of those guns you'd snap right up . . . if you didn't already have your Uggie, which you'd be very lucky to find again for much less than twice what you paid for it.

And if you think there are no complaints about Uggies, I'll offer you a challenge: Start a thread. There are enough of them around that you will get complaints. Just like there are enough W&S 700's around that you will hear complaints. You will also hear them about SKB and BSS . . . although given numbers of guns produced, when I did articles on those two makes and asked for comments, both good and bad, I did not get very many negatives.

I NEVER said there are no complaints about Uggies, Larry. In light of how many of them are out there, I think complaints about them are in the same class as complaints about Ruger Red Labels. You hear some.
Yes, there are a few duds.
The only US made double I've ever owned and used were a Western Arms and a Tobin. The Tobin has a pair of little strikers just like a Spanish guns. On my 16, one had been replaced. The Western Arms went down the road after about a season, nothing wrong except it had a single trigger I couldn't get my head wrapped around. I have no clue how a Western Arms gun is fired, but, whatever system they use is tough, and complaints about them not going boom are not common. I'm going to try a Nitro Special, soon, in 16 gauge, just to say I did, I guess, because I certainly don't need it. I have no idea which American guns use integral striker/hammers, but, American guns are usually pretty robust on the inside. Might be the price one pays for those lightweight English 700 guns.
A Darne uses a striker that is on the order of a Mauser striker, Larry. Quite robust, and, not comparable in any way to the discussion at hand. Never seen or heard about one breaking, here or in Europe. The component most broken on a Darne R is the main spring, and it usually breaks from a monkey using a tool on it. V Darnes break trigger return springs, five to ten minute job to repair, tops. You can use the side that isn't broken as a sample to bend up a new one, out of music wire. Neither of these Darne issues is one I have ever come across, it is what the factory told me to watch out for, and gave me spare parts for.
I still have the spare parts. Oh, and if the V breaks a trigger return spring, you can still use both barrels of the gun.
I don't recall this being a discussion about Darnes, however, Larry. Try to stay on topic.
Speaking of looking at the one that isn't broken, that is how one would come up with dimensions for a new striker, assuming one has access to a lathe. I've tested my spares for the Uggie, they work just fine, but, Cole Haugh supplied them. There really isn't much to them Larry, they would be simple to produce. I don't believe a nail would actually work, Larry. In any gun. Try it on one of your guns, and let us know.
Kyrie's list had a bunch of different guns that weren't Uggies on it, Larry. The only Spanish guns I look at, in passing, or with cash in hand, are/were Uggies. I have no desire to become fluent in Spanish gun makers outside of Ugartechea, and no further with them then the basic model 30 and similar guns. I think I said that already. I pointed out two gunbroker Uggie listings, one with a bid at $550, one at $600. Close enough to what I paid for mine, certainly not double in price.
The guns I'm talking about here are just generic, using grade boxlocks, and that is the only perspective I have on Spanish guns, Larry. My gun, and a few very similar to it, are the only experience I have with anything Spanish. I haven't had to ask, but, just about anything that ever broke inside of it would likely be something Cole Haugh has hanging around his shop. For my "canoe gun" there is a lot to like about that.

Best,
Ted

I thought the topic was Spanish guns, Ted . . . but we're also talking about the W&S 700, which ain't Spanish. Which seems to broaden the topic somewhat. But then you seem to want to limit it to Uggies. Which way would you like to go?

I don't hang around those auction sites much, Ted. Maybe you don't either. But neither of those guns has actually SOLD for the opening bid. And they carry additional costs of $35-40. So depending on what happens, they're quite likely to go for closer to $800 than they are to the $400 you paid for yours.

Good choice to have strikers made by Cole Haugh. Much better than Joe the local lathe man. You recall turn-around time on getting them?

I have no wish to become one of the world's leading Spanish gun experts, Ted. But you seem to be defending Kyrie's depth of knowledge and assessments of Spanish doubles . . . when what he posted in the way of used bargains consisted mostly of a small flock of turkeys. Under a blanket definition of "VG to new". Yikes. And we're still looking for solid evidence on those pre-WWI guns. And on 7-pin Arrieta 578's, from some guys who seem to know those guns pretty well.

But if I wanted a solid beater for not a lot of money, I'd consider an Uggie 30 too. Wouldn't consider a W&S 700. Too much money. However, if I wanted to hunt pheasants or prairie grouse, walking long distances, I'd likely vote for the lighter Brit gun. I've owned a couple 700's in the 6 1/4# range (28" barrels), good triggers, no function problems--other than the fact I did not shoot them all that well. I think most Uggies with the same specifications will likely weigh half a pound more on average.

Thank God. I thought the BS was going to go on forever.

So you don’t like SST and choke tubes. Many people do, and the BSA/ZH offer choices the W&S 700 doesn’t. The BSA/ZH is also $2,000 - $3000 less than the W&S 700. That makes your 700 the loser here.


I did. NIB in 2007, been shooting it ever since and not a single problem. I use Cyl/Skeet chokes on the skeet range, and switch to full/XF for trap doubles. Can you say that about your W&S 700? Didn’t think so.

I paid $600 for my BSA/ZH. Can you say that about your W&S 700? Didn’t think so.

Oh, and the $2,000 I didn’t spend on the W&S 700 – I used that money to buy this and have it restocked to my measure, with my wood:





Can you say that about your W&S 700? Didn’t think so.

Buy the name and get a W&S 700. Buy the gun and get much more.

I've had and do have a Brittany Classic. Pick your importer, BSA, Tristar, AA and yes even Weatherby, which BTW dropped the Zabala made SxS's they imported after a very short run. Weatherby dropped the Zabala's due to poor quality and they felt they did not live up to the Weatherby name. Oops, don't buy the name! The Brittany can in no way compare to a 700 or similar guns of any country. They are heavy, bulky, thick in the wrist, gritty trigger pulls, pressed checkering,have the swell at the end of the bbls due to the choke tubes, plain wood, cheap looking engraving and don't handle all that well. Do they work, sure, but to compare them to a 700 is laughable! BTW, I use my Zabala as a loaner/truck gun, that's about all it's good for.

I have a Purdey Best gun that was built in 1896 and a H&H Royal built in 1897 not to mention a J, Blanch made around 1880. They have been shooting all those years without fail, and I imagine have more rounds thru them than your 2007 Zabala. Can you say that your Zabala will still be shooting 120 years from now.......Don't think so!

yup, that's a Spanish gun. An acquired taste I guess, but as long as you're happy looking at it...

Hey, is that a 7-pin 578? Oh...I didn't think so.

Best,
Ted

I recall looking at a new Zabala a few years back. I could see daylight between the receiver and the head of the stock. Can't get that with a W&S 700 either. And we're still in search of the elusive 7 pin 578, and Spanish guns over a century old still in regular use.

Ted, we can go back and forth on tales of repair, how long they took, etc. I also told you about a Sauer I had repaired--same deal as a W&S 700, hammer and striker all one piece--and I got it back in like 2 months, not 2 years. More complicated? Yes . . . but gunsmiths charge by the hour, so it's just a question of how much time they have to devote to the project. They're going to make as much money per hour, no matter the job. I've heard of repairs like that taking a couple years, but have never experienced anything close to it myself.

Larry,
For all I know, maybe you can see daylight on my Uggie, too. Wood is a natural product, and a stock that fit perfectly 50 or a 100 years past may not fit perfectly anymore. And that includes English guns too. The thing is, I didn't pay for best gun fit of the stock on my gun, and won't care when I'm out in the rain or snow with it, or crash through the ice on a beaver dam I'm crossing (I did that once, and I was carrying a way nicer gun than the Uggie).

The minutia about sidelock pins on the Spanish guns I will happily leave to you guys. In the hard, cold, light of day, I think the boxlock was a pretty good improvement over the sidelock, which, was just a hammer gun with the hammers inside.

Best,
Ted

Ted--I doubt you can see daylight . . .but maybe. However, the Zabala in question was a NEW gun, not used. No excuse for piss poor fit like that on a new gun. You will find Brit guns with daylight like that, but not new . . . and I've never seen a W&S 700 with that particular issue. They're all post-WWII guns, so not all that old. And they're a lot nicer than your basic Spanish boxlock extractor gun. Which is one good thing about buying higher grade used guns: They're less likely to have been rode hard and put away wet.

The sidelock/boxlock debate could go on forever. One advantage to the hand detachable sidelock: You can remove the guts, without tools, in the event the gun gets wet and you want to make sure stuff on the inside isn't rusting. Probably one reason the Brits made so many of them.

Just because I have never seen Bigfoot does not mean that he does not exist. In fact I am convinced thousands of Bigfoot's are alive and well - right along with Abominable snowman and green Martians.

I have a brother and he has a friend who has a great uncle, (twice removed), and declared criminally insane - but that fellow says he has seen these things (Bigfoot, Abominable Snowman and Martians) and if he has seen them then that is good enough for me.