Interesting, and not surprising complimentary production of bicycles/components by gun makers.
1897
Hunter Crown Steel Tubing
Crown steel gun barrels were introduced for the Pigeon Gun in 1893, and the tubes were no doubt Belgian. No way today to know if the same steel was used without a composition analysis. No mention of the chains?
Hunter Arms N.Y. Showroom Feb. 13, 1897
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1897/VOL_28_NO_21/SL2821023.pdf The "Hunter Arms Company," Fulton, N. Y., have removed all their stock and fixtures from their temporary quarters at 300 Broadway, N. Y., to No.310, where they occupy one-half of that large, light store with Thomas Conroy. The premises include basement and sub-cellar. They will have plenty of room here to display the Hunter wheels, as well as Smith guns. This wheel is fast, coming to the front, in fact all it needs is advertising. This is the first time the Hunter Arms Company have ever had a good show room in New York.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1897/VOL_30_NO_04/SL3004020.pdf Oct 16, 1897
Thos. Hunter, of the Hunter Arms Co., Fulton, N. Y.. makers of the L. C. Smith gun, spent a few days in the East recently taking orders for L. C. Smith guns and Hunter wheels. "Ride a Hunter, shoot a Smith," was the advice which he was giving out free of cost, and he found plenty of people taking advantage of such good advice.
Very common on the Continent to peddle both.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Did Fox make a bicycle ? Hollenbeck made a Hygienic Bicycle seat. Winchester must have made a bicycle, they made everything else.
Manufrance: Manufacture Francaise d'Armes et Cycles de St.Etienne
Guns 'N Bikes
Forget not that Joseph Gales of Schoverling, Daly & Gales was a top bicycle authority.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
John P. Lovell Arms Co., Boston, Mass. -1899 - had a bicycle line as did A.G. Spalding & Bros.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Remember Iver-Johnson as well was a bycicle manufacturer - Chicopee Falls, Ma.
Remember Iver-Johnson as well was a bycicle manufacturer - Chocopee Falls, Ma.
Iver Johnson handguns from the 20s are marked "Iver Johnson Arms and Cycle Works".
Has anyone ever actually owned a cycle by this company? I've personally never seen one.
Jim
Before I got into old guns I spent a fair bit of time in Chicopee as I did business with A.G Spalding, but mostly with their golf division Top Flite.
A.G. Spalding & Bros. 1895 Advert
Ah, I got my ps & qs mixed and I was actually thinking of D.S. Spaulding when I posted A.G. Spalding & Bros.
D.S. Spaulding, Cadena 23, Apartado 274, Mexico, D.F. - 1909(operation was in fully swing by Oktober 1888)
Cadena Street Nr. 23, P.O. Box 274 - Mexico City
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I grew up in a bicycle store.
Spoked my first wheels at 9.
I had the pleasure of destroying hundreds, perhaps thousands of bicycles. My father would buy entire warehouses of bicycles and parts to feed our rebuilding operations. Frames accumulate in warehouses. Ashtabula cranks were particularly sought after.
I worked on hundreds of bicycle wheels with wooden rims.
I stripped and repainted simple cruisers in batches of 10.
I never saw a bicycle frame tube made of any form of laminate.
Seamless steel, weld seamed steel, but never any form of twist, or croile'.
I have measured butted tubes (tubes stretched thin in their middles, but left thick where bending stresses accumulate) but never a tube looking anything like a shotgun barrel.
Have any of you ever seen an antique bicycle with laminate tubes?
I still remember the printing on the spoke boxes (double butted) in their 4 languages.
Spokes and Nipples
Eger Og Nippler
Spiechen und nipple
rayons et ecrous
I've had my Park truing stand for almost 45 years. One of my warehouses is a cycling time capsule of the 70's. Hell, I can remember rebuilding Sturmey-Archer and Shimano 3 speeds, and Sachs and New Departure 2 speeds. Chains were pretty well standardized by 1965.
Drew,
Bicycles were made by several U.K. gun makers,including Greener under the name of F. Greener and Co; F. Williams trading under the name, American Gun and Cycle works, and of course B.S.A.
As I see it,the gun trade in Birmingham had the technical, mechanical and manufacturing skills required to manufacture key components of the Bicycle. The enormous demand for bicycles in the Victorian /Edwardian era presented gun makers with a golden opportunity to diversify and expand their business. In many cases these enterprises were short lived..
B.S.A was the exception expanding to make, not only bicycles but splendid motor cycles and also a not very practical three wheel sports car.
Simson Suhl was B.S.A.'s mirror in Germany:
http://www.mz-und-simson.de/simson/history.htmSimson - Fahrradfabrik
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I only buy and ride Schwinns. Got two of them pre-1970.
I have a nice Schwinn Tandem, Blue, all original. My wife likes to ride it with me. And an Orange Crate around somewhere.
And a Collegiate, Varsity, and Super Sport 10 speeds. I don't know why I hoard all that stuff.
Two of my kids can't even ride a bike! How bourgeois!
But has anyone ever seen laminate tubes on a bicycle?
I expect the explosive growth of cycling played a role in gun manufacturers efforts. Until Henry Ford got going anyway.
I'm going to back us up a bit. As virtually everyone on this forum knows the Iver Johnson Co. marked their Revolvers "Iver Johnson Arms and Cycle Works". I've handled dozens of inexpensive revolvers marked this way.
Has anyone ever seen a bicycle marked Iver Johnson? If so can you post a picture?
Jim
Fox also made cars. But not a lot of them. And that was after Ansley was out of the gun business.
I have a Savage chain drive tricycle, but research shows it was not made by Savage Arms Co. The seat is marked with the name of a Massachusetts company, however. Clapper Zapper, how would you like to buy another seventies Schwinn Super Sport? I also have a nice Schwinn "beach bike", don't know the model. A few years ago, there was an IJ bicycle for sale in an antique mall in Cambridge, MD, but I didn't take advantage.
I'm more interested in Clapper's Schwinn tandem. Lucky devil.
I believe it was at the end of the first world war that bsa really stepped up bicycle production, they had a lot of machine tools and staff and with the end of hostilities nothing for them to make. Bicycles and motorcycles was the obvious market for them to target.
One problem bsa motorcycles had , in common with rolls royce cars, was that they never used one part when five would do.
Guns were also sold by bicycle retailers: C.G. BONEHILL 12-BORE TOPLEVER HAMMERGUN, RETAILED BY THE CYCLE & CARRIAGE CO. LTD. KUALA LUMPUR
http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp...6&saletype=
While on the subject of Rolls Royce during the Great War the Crewe factory produced rifles amongst other things each one bearing the stamp RRC and can I say that sixty per cent of the total output of their cars are still road worthy. Though now Bentley cars come from the Rolls Royce factory in a small Cheshire town that hardly anyone has heard of not far from where I live. Though sadly it is another Brit car plant that our German cousins now own and of course the Rolls Royce car is now manufactured in Germany.
While on the subject of Rolls Royce during the Great War the Crewe factory produced rifles amongst other things each one bearing the stamp RRC and can I say that sixty per cent of the total output of their cars are still road worthy. Though now Bentley cars come from the Rolls Royce factory in a small Cheshire town that hardly anyone has heard of not far from where I live. Though sadly it is another Brit car plant that our German cousins now own and of course the Rolls Royce car is now manufactured in Germany.
During the black days of ww2 could anyone imagine that one day rolls royce, who made a big war effort towards victory of the allies, would be in the hands of the germans.
Didn't the ford dagenham make prototype welrod pistols ? I know bsa made the few that were produced.
Remember Iver-Johnson as well was a bycicle manufacturer - Chicopee Falls, Ma.
Say what-- it is spelled bicycle, Dean-o. You still need a proof-reader, don't you? How are things at the Stutz operation in Wm. Hardon Foster's hometown, and will you be a dustin' off a few Sir Ruffies with a PARKAAAH this comin' Oct??
It's embarrassing when the editor's words require editing - thanks for catching the typo Francis.
No longer with Stutz - retired almost two years ago and have loads more time for the new pup training her on "ruffies" and woodcock.
This season I think I'll use my little Parker 16 gauge lifter on the 0-frame.
Have any of you ever seen an antique bicycle with laminate tubes?
Interesting question, and I don't know the answer.
Does anyone know if these companies were making their own tubes or buying them from a manufacturer?
Reynolds was making tubes by 1889 in Birmingham, and got a patent for making butted tubes in 1897. I suspect that if there were ever laminate tubed bikes built, they would have been during the 1889-1897 period and I bet Reynolds would be the place to look.
Roy has added BSA who in England are more well known for their motor cycles than guns. They did also make a 4 wheel car; quite rare and I have seen the odd one at vintage car rallies. I'll add Esau Akrills of Beverley, Yorkshire to the list. I had the pleasure of visiting their quaint shop not long before they closed for good. If I recall there was an old cycle mounted above the shop. Lagopus.....
Manufrance 1910 catalog:
Records show that B.S.A. made their first Bicycles in 1869, model "Delta" Perhaps this bicycle may have utilised twist steel tubing?
I apologize for my limited ability to clarify my earlier question.
What I am trying to examine is the parallel development of steel tubing for the bicycle markets with tubes for shotguns.
I imagine that the volumes of tube consumed by the explosion of cycling as cheap transportation (pre-automobile mass manufacturing) would have been a greater force in the development of tube products than shotgun barrels. Fluid steel tube manufacturing, gas pipe and what not, leading as hand hammered tube manufacture was being supplanted.
But I think seamless tubing came after laminate products, and therefore early cycling products may have been laminates.
I am probably wrong, but that's what I imagine as of now, and I sorta hope there is a beautiful Damascus tubed bicycle in a museum someplace that I might enjoy.
Any thoughts?
No I have never heard of a damascus frame on a bicycle. Now how about a pic of your Schwinn tandem? Is it a step through frame?
Voila!
http://www.oldbike.eu/museum/bikes-1800s/1894-2/1894-premier-model-a93-with-helical-tubing/Don't know how to capture the images.
Edited to add: A steel framed bicycle's weight has not changed appreciably since the 1890's. 27lbs. Alloys on the peripherals (stem, seat tube, etc.)can get then down into the low 20's for a mass produced steel bike, but durability drops off.
I wondered about weight. Wouldn't the machining to create thin laminated tubing need good precision and probable significant expense. Before that 1890's time, were the bicycles mostly high wheels. The mainframe tube may have been fiveish feet long. Might have been quite an effort to weld up, deep hole drill and turn down that length of thin wall laminated tube.
Except for one offs, chances are volume production looked for some other source. There're records of damascus barrel production, I would think it would correlate closely to firearm manufacturing output for the time. Just thoughts.
Remington Arms Co. was another gun maker who made bicycles as well. Back cover of April 1897 Remington Arms Co. catalogue --
They also made sewing machines, farm machinery, and typewriters. Had to use that excess plant capacity from the "Northern War of Aggression" to make something.
Helically welded 'Plain Iron' (pre-Bessemer) barrels were an attempt to improve on "Cast steel" Huntsman hot-rolled crucible steel process of 1742. To form a pipe or barrel, a sheet was folded over a mandrel and the long edge hammer welded.
They tended to split at the seam
W. Ketland 20b SxS flintlock c.1815 helically welded
By the time of the 'Premier' bike, fluid steel by Cockerill, Siemens, Krupp and others was already in common use
As a side note, Mauser made some 3 wheeled something and a 4 cylinder auto, 1.5 litre, called the Tourer M6 with 24 horses.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I expect this is probably as desirable as a high grade shotgun today!
Jim
Fabrique Nationale D'Armes de Guerre famous bicycle, vehicle, motorcycle, gun and ammo maker from Europe.
How could we have forgotten fn, huge manufacturer of all things metal.
