My goal is to minimize collateral damage.

This bobwhite season my shooting student Joe Wood and I have on four occasions taken two birds with one shot and once taken three with one shot.

As we hunt the same grounds year after year and birds are scarcer than we would like this is undesirable. We don't even try to take two birds with two shots out of a covey rise. One bird per point is our practice. We take turns shooting. One watches or takes pictures, the other flushes and shoots.

Yesterday I went by myself (Joe said it was too cold - girlyman). I carried a Parker Reproduction 28 gauge choked 20thou and 40thou. I shot RSTs, #9s, 5/8oz. My thought was that with that choke the pattern would be much smaller than my open choked sixteen bird guns. The #9s would lose energy faster than larger shot (my sixteen load is an ounce of #8s). Using that combination I still inadvertently brought down two birds with one shot.

I generally pick a bird on the left or right trailing edge of the covey. Wood argues that I am shooting at birds in the middle of the covey but he is wrong.

Am I on the wrong track?

I'd say 'pattern board' Some small bores are notorious for producing open patterns even when overchoked.

Also, I'd try to achieve a tighter pattern of a bigger shot, as the smaller the pellet counts the lesser the chances of a pellet hitting something.

Dang Mike, I've always considered it a gift when I inadvertently get a 'Scotch' double on quail. A triple would be a Godsend! I couldn't tell you how to keep it from happening; maybe watch me shoot or something. I quite often hit nothing at all...Geo

I have patterned the gun at 23 yards and it is a frighteningly tight pattern. Most of these birds were taken at less than twenty yards, the two-for-one yesterday was at about fifteen yards.

George having paid big bucks (for me) for two leases for three seasons without enough birds to kill it is just a waste. Fortunately the triple was by me and on Joe's stomping grounds so it didn't affect me the way the double did yesterday.

In my early years of hunting by my self I found it some times was to my advantage to change my approach and maybe cause a flush that was an unnatural reaction. this tended to present more separation in the covey as you increase you probability to get a more oblique angle to shoot from. This I did only when hunting alone so as not to worry about safety.

Absolutely. About 90 percent of the adult bird population will perish whether they are hunted or not. For efficiency at bird slaying, you, your student, or the both of you together, come no where near that of a skunk, fox, or crow that happens upon a nest, pre-hatch. If avian predators in your neighborhood are doing what they are doing in mine, it won't be long before bird numbers are depressed even further. There is very little you can do about the avians, either.
If you were going to take two birds anyway, and you just happened to get them off the same point, just unload the gun and continue the walk.
Shooting birds at 15 yards with number 9 shot doesn't actually sound that appealing to the gourmet in me. And he is a pretty lame gourmet, at that.
There were birds on that property before you were born. Birds will fly there after you are dead. The notion that you will effect that outcome by taking two instead of one seems a bit far fetched to me. I understand you are both old farts, but, the weight of an extra bird in the bag is it's own pleasure, and shouldn't tax either of you too much. Simply enjoy the day for what it is.
For a good book on the same subject, might I suggest "For a Handful of Feathers", by Guy De La Valdene?
An enjoyable read.

Best,
Ted

Haven't you written here many times that Joe is your shooting student? he should be listening to teacher not arguing.

Ted I have a different model of bobwhite replenishment.

And as a young man I twice hunted coveys to extinction, shooting the last birds when I knew they were the last birds. I had hunted those coveys for years. Knew their habits. I assumed when I shot the last ones that they would come back. They didn't return in the six years before I lost the lease. If I only hunted my leases only five or six days per season then my impact would be negligible. But I hunt them much more often that. Several times I have seen hawks successfully or unsuccessfully prey on bobwhite.

In my experience, mostly in ranchland, bobwhite coveys are like tribes. They have a territory, they have rally points they go to, they go to one area of their territory during a rainy time, another during a drought. They interchange members with other abutting coveys I understand as they have been tracked with radio collars. My birds are flying low this season. I assume that is in reaction to raptor predation. I hunted bobs in the Abilene area last week and they tended to fly much higher than the birds on my lease. Only saw one Cooper hawk while I was in the Abilene area. Saw two yesterday afternoon on my lease.

Since it is my practice to just take two birds per covey on that hunt when I take them with one shot then there is less dog work. Obviously I am not subsistence hunting but hunting for the joy of it. I view it as a waste of a bird when I kill two with one shot.

I am looking for ideas on limiting collateral damage based on the belief (maybe incorrect) that the number of birds I kill out of a covey has an effect on the population and survivability of that covey.

You can lead a horse to water...

Maybe bust up a covey. Take a clear shot if one separates out, or set a shot off so the dogs think you're in the game, then hunt singles. More fun and dog work than trying to spot them and ground swatting 'em.

Will you be hunting this lease 6 years from now? How 'bout 60 years from now? 6000 years from now? 60,000 years from now? Try to wrap your head around this-there were bobwhite quail in that area, 60,000 years ago. And a few of those coveys went extinct back then, with no help from you, or, Joe.

Funny thing about men, they think that their impact on the natural world and the order of things in it is significant over the course of their individual lifetimes. And, I'm pretty sure it just isn't so.

You have taken steps to avoid wanton slaughter of what remains of the quail population. Good on you. It is a noble effort, but, the 90 percent figure I threw up earlier is a cold, hard, and well researched fact.

I won't argue that you may be hunting a lease too hard-only you can determine that. But, if conditions are right (and, I suspect, that in the area you are hunting, for a variety of reasons, they are not) birds will move back into an area they formerly did, but, no longer use.

Nature abhors a vacuum.

Best,
Ted

Ted I don't doubt that I have a negligible impact on the continent's population of bobwhite.

I don't doubt that I do have a significant impact on my birdlease's population. I gave my case above.

I don't doubt that I have a negligible impact on the continent's population of bobwhite in the year 2030.

I don't doubt that I have a significant impact on my birdlease's population of bobwhite next season.

Between me and my late father we had one lease from 1966 until 2002. I have had this lease since 2004. I have hunted the same coveys year after year, decade after decade. Human predation of bobs can matter in that lease area.

My current leases are 4700 acres and 6300 acres. If I hunt out a covey in the middle of one of those leases a new covey does not instantly spring up in its place the next season. The loss of that covey is negligible in the overall population. It is significant to me.

And I go again to the tribe analogy. The covey has to live through Summer and Winter, nesting predation by 'coons, live bird predation by hawks, drought and flood. They have a system worked out. When there is water standing at the bottom of a certain draw they will always be in that area. When in drought they hang out in a plum thicket three hundred yards North. Before the rancher lets the cattle in they like the grassy ridge. After it is grazed out the bobs move to the bottom of the draw. But that knowledge is passed from generation to generation of bobs. And as bobs don't live through but two or three seasons that covey can go extinct in a hurry.

If I do shoot out a covey there is no doubt that, in a year or twenty, a new covey will start there, survive the learning curve and figure out a way to make a living. So yes, any vacuum I cause will be filled. But if it happens after me and my dogs are dead then I screwed up. Thus the desire to maximize the number of times I can shoot a bob over my pointing dogs leads me to look for a shotgun and load that lower the chance that I will kill two birds with one shot.

Thanks for your comments. I remembered some things I had forgotten in the process of trying to make my point.

Best,

Mike

And I thought I was the only one with this problem. For me it became obvious that my guns fit too well, my loads are too lethal, I have been spending way too much time shooting clay targets honeing my skills and the birds were just plain unlucky. In lieu of changing any of the above the only rational choice is to stop shooting birds on the covey rise and only persue the singles.

Ted,Mike,
I don't have a dog in this fight, but it's been my observation that Ted is correct with the following caveat. Changing land use is more damaging than anything else in my area.When the open pastures and fields with the edges created by the terraces,fencelines,and creeks/branches gave way to big pine tree "orchards"(plantations), the birds went away.What really happened, I think,was it took a much larger area of this kind of land to support a covey.However, when the trees get larger and are thinned a couple of times,the land can be agressively managed for birds.This can be pretty expensive and be beyond the means of many hunters.
Mike

It seems clear that there are two schools of thought here:
(1) What difference does it make in the long term?
(2) I'd rather conserve my brood stock for better weather conditions so when the rains return my flock will recover faster.

Mike obviously follows the latter principle. The best two suggestions so far are forego the covey shot and chase singles, and alternatively to reverse roles with your shooting student and learn to shoot badly...Geo

Hey Mike:

I took this picture on the lease yesterday. Trees aren't a problem.



The population of the 900 square mile county is 3,200 so encroachment isn't a problem.

The land has been ranchland for about a hundred years so no land use changes.

Craig, Pilgrim, and TwiceBarrel - all good suggestions. Thanks.

Good idea George. I think I could closely simulate his shooting by closing the eye over the barrel. If that doesn't work I will try closing both of them.

Glad to find someone else afflicted with these circumstances. Unless someone has experienced this they just can't empathize - isn't that the way you find it Twice?

I would say:

1)I agree with Ted that what I do doesn't make any difference in the long run in the total world population of bobwhites.

2)I believe what I do this season on my lease can and often does make a significant difference in that lease's next season's crop of birds.

Ted and I just disagree on the time that Nature takes to fill that abhorrible vacuum I create on my lease when I kill too many birds or shoot out a covey.

I have tried both different shot size and different loads. I no longer use number 9's because it seems like I have too many pellets in a pattern and have wounded or killed an extra bird with just the unintended fringe or had a second bird fly into the pattern down range. I tried 7 1/2 which gave me thinner patterns but I still worry about birds being hit by accident. With today's vast wad selection I load a very light 20 with just under 3/4 ounce 7 1/2s or you could go 5/8 in a 28 but keep the 7 1/2 instead of 9s.

I have given up trying to manage my farms for golden days quail numbers. Those days are gone. One farm has just one covey left that I know of. Use to be seven or more there every year. Makes me feel sad and old just to think about what I had that my kids never will have. To then they have turkeys and deer in number I never had so it is not all bleak for them.

KY my thoughts on the 9s were that they would lose energy faster. That is, a #9 pellet loses velocity faster than a #7. I thought perhaps the 9s would lower the chance of inadvertently hitting and injuring a bird at the far side of the fleeing covey when I was shooting at one in the near side. The little 28 throws a really tight pattern at 23 yards (the maximum target distance at my local pistol range).

The RSTs I was shooting were 1175fps. I suppose I could go to a lower velocity load and a larger shot?

Mike, looks like you folks do have some water on the lease. Your pictures always strike me as being generally dry country with not a whole lot of cover. Maybe if it's not too labor intensive you could set up a few water tanks and keep a rifle around, maybe even trap, off season for the predators that you can take legally.

Mike,

You have a lot of friendly acquaintances on the board. Why not take a road trip the next two seasons and enjoy some pheasant or grouse shooting?

Craig it is pretty dry. But it is on the banks of the pictured Salt Fork of the Red River.

I keep trying to get Joe Wood to get some coon dogs. He could keep them in his gun shop. He keeps saying no. Says he is scared of snakes and isn't going stumble through the draws in the dark with all the rattlesnakes and feral hogs.

There is a guy hunting coons on the lease now. He says skinned the hide goes for $17, unskinned $10. So there is perhaps going to be some predator control.

I have been told if you leave corn out on the ground for a few days and then pull up at night there are lots of coons around.

Another good use for a .410.

I'd recommend you and Joe take up shooting .410s with full chokes. If you need some shooting instruction for the .410 , I'm available for a phenomenal fee.

nca, do you really believe anyone here is willing to share their meager game-bird resources with an admitted gamehog/trickshot like Amarillo Mike?...Geo

NCA my "drug of choice" is bobwhite. When I can't hunt them pheasant, grouse, and huns are almost as much fun for me. Where do you live? Do you have any hunting? Do you have a spare bedroom? I have five bird dogs and almost all of them are mostly housebroken. Can they live in the house while I stay with you for a few weeks and we hunt? Tell your wife I am not a picky eater at all. Oh, and tell her I am not picky about my how my laundry is done either. When does season open there? I might come a little early and get the dogs acclimatized. I will send you a list of my preferred brand and gauge of shells as I may fly and it is hassle bringing ammunition on the plane.

Thanks so much for the invite!

Geo,

Perhaps if he came accompanied by a fine bottle of bourbon, he would be more well received.

Mike,

Notwithstanding Geo's warning about you, my wife and I would be happy to have you. But you have to be able to put up with our politics. Just a warning, you may find her more opinionated then me!

If you've got birds and I can stay in your house as far as I am concerned she can read "The Thoughts of Chairman Mao" at breakfast every morning and my room can be papered in pictures of Barack and Michelle.

When it comes to bird hunting I am an open minded kind of guy.

So, when does season open?

We do have plenty of grouse up here, hopefully plenty more if it is a warm and dry spring. But its much worse then you imagined. Maya Angelou is required reading at our household and its pictures of Michael Moore, Ralph Nader and Racheal Maddow all over the place, but if you can fall in line like any good liberal, come on up. October 1st is only 7 months and 14 days away!

I've seen you shoot. If I paid you $1, including your expenses, you would be phenomenally overpaid.

Mike, I understand your problem. You might have only a problem with word meaning. Your term, "rise" , actually means birds flying before you shoot. I think you might be thinking the term is "after you shoot". Lots of gravel can be kicked up with shots on the ground , giving a pretty good chance of hitting extra birds with shrapnel. I know your dogs are super and hold birds still for the hunter, but just wait a bit until the birds flush, and you will never have a multiple bird drop problem

OK, and I kind of dig Rachel anyway- she is a babe. I bet I could convert her.

Tell your sweety my favorite is bacon, biscuits and gravy, with three eggs over easy and that if she accidentally breaks a yoke not to worry as that is my second favorite way.

Also might want to get any heirlooms out of our bedroom. The puppy is still in that chewing stage.

Time to move on Mike and Joe, the party, as the song goes, is over!!!! It’s time to trade in those high grade doubles and get yourself some proper waterfowling guns.

Daryl I would never shoot a bird on the ground. Now Joe Wood, that is another story. Until he started hunting with me he didn't even know a bird could be shot in the air. His eyes got as big around as saucers and he said "How'd you do that!"

Mike? Are you off your meds AGAIN??

Will do Mike. I think Rachel is kinda cute too in a dorky hot chick kinda way. In addition to the Bourbon, bring up a recipe for biscuits and gravy as well. We don't have to many southern recipes here. I'm sure your 5 Brittanies will get along just fine with my dog. He's a big friendly fellow, and loves to flush birds.

BTW, for your own good keep this trip on down low, you might loose some stars if you let it be known we hung out and shot some grouse together.

Treb the trouble with waterfowling is that it is cold, wet, cold, wet, and cold and wet and when you get done your have one of those waterfowls you have to clean and eat.

Mike/Skeet I am more stable off my meds than you are on yours.

NCA what are a few stars compared to several weeks of free ruffed grouse hunting, free shotgun shells, free room and board and free in-house kenneling?

Now I've helped y'all I can today. I am taking Miz Ruth Anne bird hunting tomorrow and have to get busy getting everything ready.


Best,

Mike

A self-imposed limit is a noble gesture, the mark of a sportsman, and probably shows how much you and Joe have matured since your ground-sluicing, how many can we kill teen age days. It won't offset the amount of chemicals sprayed in farming areas nor the loss of habitat which I believe has contributed to the quail decline. Throw in the feral hog problem along with feral housecats on top of natural predators like bobcats, coyotes, raptors, etc. and the bobwhite quail is in trouble. Compare Mexico's population of quail and ask yourself what the difference is between here and there. Go hunt with a nice .410 double gun if you're worried about pattern spread; makes a nice excuse to buy another shotgun.

If you don't mind the care required by a long haired dog, standard poodles can be great gun dogs. Their intelligence can't be questioned.

anecdotally, a couple generations ago I lived in New Orleans and had a standard white. I never thought about hunting her. On walks through Audubon Park I would come across people training their gun dogs and I would strike up a conversation. The recurring story I heard was of a guy who had two standard blacks that he entered in trials. The only question about his dogs was which one would win first and which would get second. Years later I was casting about for a wire haired pointed and by chance bought one from the poodle guy. He said the poodles belonged to his wife and he trained them for field work on a bet!

Pick out one bird and go for him. The worse shooting slump I ever got into was after having a string of doubles, I decided I would only shoot for doubles. Not only did I start missing doubles I couldn't have hit a barn if it jumped up. I guess the secret to good shooting is not to think too much.

Amen brother pooch. Thats why I'm so lethal and my dog is so talented...he dosen't think much either.

Good point Mike, (no pun intended) good point!!!

I have a 22 smooth bore I will sell you, that might just be the ticket.

IMHO if you step-up to a 16-20 bore, shoot 7-7 1/2, and let the birds on a covey rise get out a little more, increasing the likelihood you have all the birds in the covey in the air when you shoot the first time, you will not double-up with late risers coming up into the pattern. That's about the only option at present you haven't considered. Normally, wild birds are not dallying around much, so giving them a little extra time should do the trick.

Shoot cocks birds only and don't worry about it. Gotta be good!

Ted never quoted a time frame for which this would happen. But, I did point out the all too obvious (something I'm really good at) actual problem, which is the fact that most of the good quail habitat has become far less so. Including, your's.

I also suggested you read a book by an author who tried to make his farm into quail shangri-la, and when it was all over, came to different conclusions on how/why or even if, that is possible.

You can attempt to stack the deck, in the quail's favor, but, in the end nature can be a cruel minx.

Good luck, at any rate, and in the end, it will matter very little to nothing what gun or ammunition you shoot.


Best,
Ted

This has been a very entertaining thread! Nice work guys and lots of good advice!!

I don't think your going to hurt the overall population of Bobwhite (Colinus Virginianus} as long as your hunting these Texas bobwhite

LOL best, Mike

Mike if you went to size 7 1/2 shot and shot the same 5/8 load you would drop your number of pellets from 355 to 211 which should reduce the chance of stray pellets hitting non intended targeted birds. I know after all the shooting lessons given and taken by you and your gang this seems like over kill.

Perhaps you could go in another direction. Start by removing all the pellets and see if your wad is killing the second bird. If not then increase your shell's payload one pellet in the load at a time until you find the ultimate load. Perhaps a shot of your repute needs only one pellet or as you are getting up there in years you need more, like five or six. This should be more fair to the birds and not waste as many pellets with overkill you are experiencing.

Your concern about not killing too many quail is admirable but did you consider what may happen if others had your lease? I have seen too many lease taken by groups who compare number of birds killed with the lengthen of their peckers. Only happy with big kill numbers to brag about their shooting ability and willing to shoot until past dark or until the last bird has been killed on a lease. A good steward, such as your self, should not be too upset about an occasional accidental double. Some claim every bird you kill is the result of an accident or divine intervention, not of the side of the bird. Nasty things some friends say, nasty or envious.

Mike,
If you and Joe switch glasses, I think that will solve the original problem.

GaryW,

The "chemicals' sprayed were a real problem many years ago, not today. The pesticides sprayed today are almost all pyrethrin based, made from chrysanthemums, which are totally harmless to quail, and people as well. There were some bad ones when I first started farming in the early '70s, almost none in use today, and haven't been for many years. It's a hard idea to get out of most peoples minds, tho'. Interestingly, Mexico still uses a lot of the the bad stuff we banned from use years ago, and still has quail. Kinda makes you step back and question the old belief that "chemicals" contributed to the demise of bobs.

I am still very interested in research ongoing, that what happened to quail across the South, and is happening in parts of Texas and Oklahoma according to articles I read, is something completely undreamed of a few years ago ......... a parasite.

Amarillo Mike, I've been "iced in" for about three days with no electricity and had to catch up on this thread tonight. Good reading. I'm with Chuck and Gary on the gun, try the little gun. Guarantee you it will reduce the overall number you put in the game pouch, which in a roundabout way may just bring about the desired result, which is taking less birds inadvertently out of a covey. No. 8s and tight chokes out of a .410. I can't remember ever taking two at one shot with mine, but will admit to not killing as many overall in a season as ya'll today. But we sure did in the old days.

SRH

If your intent is to not reduce the coveys during this cycle, why load poppers. Mount one of the Go Pro cameras on the gun and video tape the popper load going off. Might prove instructive and something interesting to pursue while the coveys are small.

I guarantee you'll take less game with a 410 and will be rewarded greater for the fewer birds you put in your bag.

Mike, take me and if you can learn by example, I will show you how to not only not to take two with one shot, but as a bonus, how to not take one with many shots. Gil

You don't need a new gun or less shot. Just let them rise, then only take the tough shots. This time of year the birds ought to be running and good shots should few and far between anyway. Another way is to knock of earlier in the day. The birds don't start bunching up again until close to sun down when they are covying up to bed down. Instead of breaking up covies, I always used the end of the day to retrace my steps to where I think I might have wounded a bird that is unlikely to last the night. A wounded bird will start calling for help toward the end of the day.

A most enjoyable thread. Here in the Rolling Plains we try and protect any covey we happen to find. We have noticed more birds this year than in the past several years. We seem to think moisture at the right time of the year is the crucial element.

tks,
jcn

Mike I just thought of another tactic. You may try to bust the covey and then hunt just singles. I know this my be hard for the dog to understand but maybe only used when you have a tight flush. regards, Pilgrim

Although it was generally dismissed in this thread I still think my idea of using nine shot in a 1/2oz or 5/8oz load (full choke) may be a good idea. The nine shot loses velocity much quicker than 7-1/2 and has less mass. I think it might greatly lower the likelihood of killing a bird on the far edge of the covey by accident.

The formula for the energy of a pellet is equal to .5 times Mass times Velocity times Velocity or 1/2 x M x V x V one half mas times velocity squared. So at forty yards a #9 pellet has much less velocity and much much less energy than a 7-1/2.

I have been doing some google searches trying to find the velocity at forty yards of different size lead shot that left the muzzle at 1150 fps. If I can get it I will post the relative energy of the two different sized pellets at 40 yards.

5/8 ounce of number 9's is 355 pellets. 5/8 ounce of 7 1/2 is 211 pellets. That is a difference of 40% less in pellets. A half ounce in the .410 is 284 and 169. I would rather use 7 1/2, limit shot size to reduce crippling and wounded birds by what we would call over spray or fringe pattern. It becomes a trade off in the end. How many 7 1/2's vs. 9's are needed to bring down the average quail? Extra pellet numbers against energy. And I feel that quail are one of the least hardy birds, easiest to bring down with fewest hits. Sometimes hard to find and hit but when hit they go down and stay down. Not like pheasant which will run a marathon if wounded or a smart Black duck which will dive and hide.

Having shot both for nigh on to 54 years I think a dove is easier to bring down than a quail bird. It's been my experience that it is also easier to recover a downed/but/not/dead dove than a quail. Quail will run and hide, when wounded, more so than a dove. Good point you're making, tho'. Quail are "tough little frail" birds, but just so admirable!

SRH

If the payload and chokes are kept constant, 3/4 to 7/8 oz of premium, hard shot, slower burning powders at lesser velocity,the larger the bore size, less flyers...Right? Bore size does make a difference...or am I missing something? Flyers increase with decrease in bore size, softness of shot, and increase in velocity. Why would this not make any difference? Or is the opinion the extra bird is not killed by pellets outside the pattern? Just asking....???

Mike, this should be your next purchase as there are more waterfowl out there then you can shake a stick at!!!

http://www.ithacagun.com/waterfowl.html

Can any true American, whether young or old, rich or poor resist the sweet lines of the Model 37!!!

Then after that one then this!!!!!!

http://www.ithacagun.com/28gauge.html

Every solution offered is a compromise. You might end up losing more wounded birds flying to the next county with #9's and .410. Is your current set up that broke that it needs fixing? The "cure" maybe worse than the "issue".

Mike, I think this is worth considering. As was the suggestion of breaking the coveys and then pursuing singles, rather than trying to pick a single out of the first flush of the covey.

I can't recall any quail flying off when hit with 7 1/2 shot from any bore size, even the much maligned 410. I would stick with 7 1/2, 7, or 6 regardless of bore size. The bird doesn't know what bore size the shot comes from.

That Parker Repro full choke 28 ga barrel makes some of the tightest patterns I've shot.

Mike, my 4 1/2" drop Baker that you were admiring might do the trick for you.

I don't know-he says he likes a bunch of drop....


Best,
Ted

Mike, After some more thought about your situation.IMHO we may be looking at the wrong end of the stick.You over years of practice have be come a very good shot, this said I would be remiss to change my proven actions or equipment. Northeast quail that I hunted when flushed were more erratic asmuch as 270 degrees. Your southwest birds seen to flush much tighter, were as this, is the crux of the matter.

Man Up!

You'll shoot your eye out.

I'm getting into this late, but I have a couple of thoughts on this. I grew up hunting quail on our farm in South Georgia when they were abundant and there were areas where there was a convey about every 400 yards on field-woodland edges. Even with this abundance of quail I was taught two things 1. Don't shoot the covey to fewer than five birds. 2. Don't shoot a convey so late in the day than they can't get back together before dark.

Riprap

Mike,
Think I've found the solution to your problem of killing too many quail on a covey rise......I can make one of these for you.

Yes but be careful, there is a reason for the saying " Kill 2 birds with one stone"

That looks like a rare and desireable "cape" slingshot.


Best,
Ted

I think Mike is tired of our constant babble.

That'll teach him to put his first world problem up on the board....


Best,
Ted

Mike is not tired of the helpful posts. He is shy. Too shy to admit his real issue. It is not the accidental killing of a second bird. In fact he is very confused. Why do two birds he is not even shooting at die instead of the one he is aiming for? To him it is a mystery beyond simple explanations. Sometime teaching a hopeless student will cause the teacher to loose faith. Hang in there Mike. You will get your swing back.

I thought this was a doublegun forum, suddenly we have Red Ryder BB guns and single shot slingshots. At least I would use a rare BB doublegun Daisy made years ago :<)

This is what happens when hunting season ends in most parts of the US.

I have had lots of fun trying to help y'all . Keep 'em coming. Not tired of babble or offended. Just enjoying the ribbing.

My Vintage Crosman 101 quail getting gun

Mike is like a Timex and the doublegunshop forum members are like dozens of John Cameron Swayze's.

I especially enjoy exchanging ridicule with Chuck. But it is not really fair to him as I have so much more material to work with than he does.

I agree with Stan about the hardiness of a wounded bobwhite. He will frequently run fifty or sixty yards to hide in the middle of some near impenetrable cactus patches or brush. A dog that can track and find the bird is highly valued by me as I hunt with Joe Wood so frequently.

KY Jon you were describing Joe Wood's shooting, not mine.

I baby my coveys, only hunting them two or three times a season. Almost all of my coveys are flushed very near the shooter, say less than five yards.

I have seen Gary shoot and he would be better off carrying a sling shot instead of a shotgun when he quail hunts. He would get just as many birds and save about fifty cents on every covey rise.

Pilgrim as I have never hunted Yankee quail I could not compare. But I haven't had this problem until the last couple of seasons.

Skeet that would be about right for picking them off as they scratch for gravel - while resting the airgun on the pickup window frame.

If only we (okay, maybe just yours truly) could shoot a slingshot like this man, we wouldn't need no stinkin' shotguns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ieWrWLjii0

I bet, after a few flushes, Rufus could hit a flying bobwhite. Probably has.

Ted since I don't rest my cheek on the comb with a 3" drop gun I bet it doesn't make much difference whether the drop is 3" or 4-1/2". Just get the shooting eye over the rib at the correct elevation. My "doubles" this season were made with drops from 3" DAH (VH16) to a 2" DAH (Repro DHE28).

Daryl if you would like make a large contribution to doubleguncom knowledge loan that Baker to me and I will experiment with it and return it when I am done. Might enclose the addresses of your heirs because it may take awhile.

Mike, at 2 minutes, if you listen carefully, you can hear a bob calling...Gil

You can! Good ear Gil!

I have gone deaf in my left ear in the frequency of a bobwhite's call. I used to be able to walk within twenty yards after hearing a bobwhite calling. Now, no matter which way I turn, the calling bobwhite is always to my right.

"KY Jon you were describing Joe Wood's shooting, not mine."

Well if you watch a dog scratch at a flea long enough you will get an itch yourself. Teaching is a dangerous profession and the risk is the teacher and student becoming one and neither if them being able to hit the side of a barn when done. Just be careful is all that I am saying.

I still think you should go back to a single pellet in each shell and increase one pellet per shot until the problem returns. I know a shooter of your ability can kill close birds with just the wads but sometimes they, the wads, fly funny. So just start with the wad and a single pellet. Who knows you might get up to five or six pellets before the second bird falls. Then you know the simple answer is to reduce back the the safe number of pellets. Better for the environment as well. Not so much wasted lead falling all over the place like when Joe fills the sky in hopes of some freak of nature hit on a out of luck bird.

"I have seen Gary shoot and he would be better off carrying a sling shot instead of a shotgun when he quail hunts. He would get just as many birds and save about fifty cents on every covey rise."

Not a bad idea, Mikey.....except it's a little hard to put engraving on a slingshot.

You can engrave this:



And you can have it custom stocked with 36LPI checkering.

Egads, a black "assault" slingshot! You might have to register that one.

Best,
Ted

PS I have often wondered about Mike's ability to shoot well with guns having 0 to 8 inches of drop, but, his shooting student forwarded a family photo that explains it quite well for me.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/Coneheads_Poster.jpg

[quote=Ted Schefelbein

Egads, a black "assault" slingshot! You might have to register that one.

Best,
Ted




[/quote]

NY prohibits pants pockets capable of carrying more than 10 rocks.

Mike and Joe both practice the "Ichabod Crane" style of shooting....

This is from Gary's most recent auroch hunt:


As you can see Gary has no neck and so must shoot a gun with 1" DAH and 3-1/2" of castoff.

Mike(with his rabbit hounds), Joe, and friends in their early days; before they learned shooting flying.........

I grew up on a farm in the Panhandle in the sixties. We used to load up in a pickup or old jeep and drive the county roads and neighbor's fields shooting jackrabbits from the moving vehicle. We didn't ask permission. Mostly we shot repeaters - shotguns and 22s. The neighbors did it too. Back then there was a farm house every mile or two. Nobody every said anything. We never hunted in a pasture with livestock or shot toward a house. We would take the rabbits over to an old pig farmer and get a dime per each. Some nights we got over fifty of them.

They were thick in those days. Literally couldn't take fifty steps in a field without flushing a jackrabbit. It was nine miles to town. On average we ran over three an a roundtrip.

Probably about 5% or 10% of those numbers now. My shooting student Joe Wood told me a disease had really knocked down their numbers.

Edit: This was in the flattest most treeless part of Texas. Could literally see for several miles when standing up in the back of a pickup.