Ok I never claimed to be the sharpest knife in the drawer but can someone tell me why a model 21 Grand American over & under is 10 grand and a SxS is 30 grand?

Because one's a M-21 and the other isn't?

Talking about new CSMC guns. Can't cost 20 grand more to build the SxS. I get why an original 21 Grand American is 30 grand. I'm slow not special.

Tony should build a side by side model 21 reproduction and price it same as the new o/u .I would be interested in one. Bobby

Look at the photos of the decadently lavish showroom, complete with the sports car, and the recent mention of an entirely new showroom opened in Danbury. Seems pretty obvious that the profit margins at CSMC are rather obscene. A field grade model 21 sxs could be marketed for about $3,000, but that would undermine the exorbitant prices of the higher grades. I'll spend my money elsewhere, thanks.

Sure, understood, this is about new CSMC guns.

How many CSMC M-21s do you think they make, vs. how many Inverness/21 O/Us? They're set up for modern, efficient, higher volume production on the O/Us -- which has a lot to do with the cost of making them.

But high end price mostly is about what the market will bear, not a direct correlation with cost of manufacture. He's in the business of maximizing profit, and probably has a pretty good feel for what happens to total profit on the SxSs if he sells them for less.

Jay

That's good to hear that an American gun company is prospering!!! Let them continue and good luck to them. How great it would be to call or e-mail a Hunter Arms Company or an A.H. Fox Gun Company to order a brand new SxS from a company that has been in existence for over a hundred and fifty years. We would know what the British feel like.

But, although not a SxS, we still have Ithaca and that lethal little bastard they still build, the Model 37!!!

The price of a Model 21 from USRA was pretty high thirty years ago. We didn't complain about it then. We either bought one or we didn't and went on with life. How times have changed.

Could be hand engraving on the M 21 SxS and laser on the O/U.

No. It's the fact the O/U is a machine made gun just like their Iverness which is a copy of a Rizzini. These guns are made with a machine and are of monobloc construction. The Model 21 SxS's have chopper lump barrels and are much more costly and difficult to make. This O/U 21 is an Iverness/Rizzini a little differently dolled up. Simple as that. And IMHO this O/U is NO Model 21 and rather, simply a gimmick for Galazan to make more money.....just my opinion though.

Is there a problem with making mo' money?

Not to me Eeb, as long as it is done in an honest and stand up fashion.

So, Tony is trying to pull the wool over your eyes by selling the 21 over under for about a sixth of the price of the side by side Model 21? If you are fooled by this deception, you are one thick gun buyer. Most of us kind of realize that the over under is a bit lesser gun. What's your problem?

I will tell you what my problem is. I bought a gun from them once. Now I wouldn't buy a box of shotgun shells from those people. Use your imagination there Eightbore, and I am a player in the game, just like you. If you want to buy a POS from CSMC be my guest. When it comes to Winchester Model 21's I will stick with the real McCoy and NOT one of their reproductions and esp an O/U so called Model 21, thank you.

Ok/Ok 20 grand is a lot of difference. The engraving on both look the same? I have a RBL sporting clays gun. It is a nice gun functions well has never let me down to date. So I have nothing bad to say about his products. I just do not see how it can cost 20 g more to build a SxS.

What happened Buzz??

CNC machines lower costs, eliminate the need to maintain large inventories, minimise hand finishing. Do these benefits get passed o to the final consumer?

The former production manager of Purdey posed this rhetorical question in an article in Shooting Sportsman and concluded that this is a matter for the marketing department. Presumably this means no, the benefits are not passed on.

Years ago the Gun Digest carried a article titled Prefecting the Boxlock. The ideas mentioned in the article are embodied in the RBL. YEt the RBL is marketed as a result of "innovative thinking" by the CSMC folks. Innovative? Twenty years later?

Straight from CSMC web site referring to the Model 21 O/U: "This is the over and under version of our currently available Model 21 Side by Side. We build this gun using ALL of the SAME machining, tooling, techniques, finishes and the original process.". Now, are they saying their original 21 is just a Rizzini because that's what their O/U is? Or is this all a marketing ploy and just a bunch of BS? If it's all the same then, and they are really using the same techniques and tooling, then why do the O/U not have chopper/demibloc barrel construction like a SxS? Do you understand this Eightbore or are you the 'thick' gun buyer?? They are full of it and that's all there is to it.

I think we all understand the hype and make judgements by examining the gun, not the hype. We also know that the gun is similar to the Rizzini that CSMC used to market. No mystery there. To answer your question, yes, I do understand chopper lumps and realize that the Model 21 over under and the Inverness are made using a different system, and I still bought an Inverness. Of course, my SO Beretta is built on the same system.

After a few turns of discussion, everyone on this board (and some others) understands the difference between what they say and what they do in making this O/U. They have nothing to gain here with the misleading description, so why do it? Clearly they're promoting to a broader market, trying to draw in buyers who'll think they're getting a gun made like the M-21.

I had a terrible experience with them quite a few years ago. They mangled making my 16 ga. 21 into a custom spec gun, had to go to Andy's (before he crashed and burned) to correct problems they created and would not fix. When the RBL 16 came out I took a chance and came away satisfied -- the shop they sent it too for stock bending before delivery messed up the finish and pad, but they made it right.

This misleading O/U promotion copy goes beyond puffery, to their discredit.

Jay

So does it cost 20 grand more to make the SxS ? I might pay 10g for a 21 SxS Grand American CSMC but I for damn sure ain't paying 30g. I also am not interested in the O/U at all.

Last time I Iooked, 'base' price on a CSMC Grand American was $24,500USD.
A Winchester M21 Grand American will be upwards of $40,000USD but you do get two sets of barrels. Collectors fuel that market but CSMC actual cost and what CSMC sells for to stay in business also contributes to the market.

As to this statement " Eightbore, and I am a player in the game, just like you. If you want to buy a POS from CSMC be my guest. When it comes to Winchester Model 21's I will stick with the real McCoy and NOT one of their reproductions and esp an O/U so called Model 21, thank you."

What's a "player"?

As to "POS", how many Winchester M21's and how many CSMC M21's have you examined?
I first met Tony in the early 90's andclosely examined his M21's at the time and since then have loooked at every one I could get my hands on. I also have examined many many Winchester M21's in the last 20 years.
None of the CSMC M21's could be termed a "POS" and most of the Winchester M21's were not a "POS".
Don't bring in engravers to the discussion. This is today and the best engravers of the 20th century are gone, if you want an Urich or a Gough, then be prepared to pay a premium price. Tony uses some of the best engravers in the world on his Foxes, M21's, Galazan's and Parker's.
I have an RBL 20, An A-10 American 20/28 Rose & Scroll set, A CSMC Fox DE Grade 16, and a CSMC M21 'baby frame' 28 gauge Grand American.
My personal opinion is, that none of them are a "POS".
How many CSMC branded shotguns have you examined to lable them "POS"?
In any event, it's marketing regarding the CSMC M21 o/u and the base gun looks attractive. The debate of whether a CSMC M21 is a M21 or a CSMC Fox is a Fox continues but only in the minds of a few who inhabit these Forums. The people who have the monetary resources to purchase these guns and want an outstanding product have made thier minds up.
My last four doubles have come from CSMC and I don't look anyplace else for a new bespoke shotgun. CSMC are people I can actually talk to and meet to discuss the particulars. None of thier shotguns are a "POS".-Dick

We are all entitled to our opinions. I have a very NASTY taste in my mouth after a gun 'deal' with your buddies. If you choose to trust them and do business with them, well then that's your prerogative. Likewise, it's my prerogative to NEVER again spend one red cent with them. I will spend my money elsewhere and you can do with yours ( and 8bore too) whatever you want. In fact buy 9 or 10 of those O/U Model 21 Rizzini's Grand Americans and we will see what they are worth 10 yrs from now. I'm guessing you will be VERY disappointed.

Maybe I have just been plain lucky but my absolute best "stand behind your product" has been CSMC. They have gone so far beyond what is expected that I will be a lifelong customer of theirs with absolute confidence in their products and their support services. Lou is my contact there and I am sure many of you also know him well.

Many of you buy Rolex watches or their equivalents. How much more do you think it costs to make a Rolex vs. a Seiko? So why do you buy it?

I asked a very simple question which you choose to ignore.
Again, I ask the same question, what is a "player"?

No one at CSMC is my 'buddy'.

Frankly, I find your Posts in this Thread, simplistic, without any substance and vindictive because you had a bad experience, commonly termed 'bashing'.
I never addressed the resale value of a CSMC M21 o/u nor said I was going to purchase one but only addressed the statements you made about CSMC from my personal experience.
EOT for me.-Dick

Well, this is EOT for me too. First, let's address what a 'player' is. A Player As far as I'm concerned is one who plays in the gun buying world. I have a safe full of nice shotguns and a rather high insurance premium, so I guess that would constitute being a player. As far as being simplistic and evasive, I wish I could tell my story about CSMC but in a public forum I think it is best to keep that part private. 'How many Model 21's have I examined'? Well, I have owned more than 10. I currently have a custom shop 'custom' grade 20 b and a Grade IV 2 barrel set 20b with A carved wood. I almost got taken on a 'Winchester Custom Grade' .410 which did not letter with Cody and it turned out to be a gun that had 'Winchester' on it and Winchester proof marks. Whew.....that was a close call; but in reality it wasn't even a CSMC reproduction. I'm guessing it was some sort of forgery. Not sure who made it, it was a very nice gun, but nevertheless a forgery. How many CSMC guns have you examined to label them POS? Several, but I try to buy only Winchester made Model 21's. And yes, I do have a terrible taste in my mouth over the one and only gun deal I had with them.......and you would too.

Somebody help me out here. I know I am not the only one asking himself what the heck is"POS and EOT". Thanks!

Buddy, Google is a good first stop for just about any info. Enter POS and EOT and you'll find these among the results.

Jay

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pos

http://www.internetslang.com/EOT-meaning-definition.asp

Buddy, since you are a friend, I will tell you that we are talking "piece of sh*t", and "end of thread". End of thread is usually kind of a presumptuous command from a little fellow for anyone posting on a thread to stop doing it. Of course, Dick is on our side on this "Tony bashing" business, so he is only using the EOT acronym to describe his action of bailing out. Personally, I think Dick should stay on here to duke it out with the Tony bashers. He has spent as much money with CSMC as you have. He's a pretty nice guy who moderated the Model 21 website. Bill Murphy

Both guns have a stock and a forearm, not much different than each other, both guns are engraved with gold inlays, one has an over and under barrel and one has a side by side barrel -- all I was asking was why there would be a $20,000. difference in price? No answer to my question yet.

Thanks for the info. I guess an OF (old fart) can still learn something new!!!

I have purchased nine shotguns from CSMC. Three original Win M21's and ordered six other new shotguns. Zero problems with CSMC or the guns. Customer service has been exemplary. Example: top barrel of an A-10 with 3000+ rounds through it had a 20% rate of piercing the primers ( on ONLY one brand of ammo). I personally took it back to them with the intention of leaving it for service. I was told to wait and they would see what needed to be done. Two hours later it was returned to me after the work and they had completely gone through the gun and test fired it (which I could hear going on) with more than a box of shells. New springs and other updates were installed. Zero cost to me. Buzz obviously had a very bad experience with them and understandably will no longer do any business with them. I, too, only have to be burned once.

Bill, I think your question has been answered more than once in this thread. Cost to produce determines whether you can stay in business, doesn't limit the price of the product. Tony won't price the product lower unless he expects higher sales volume to yield higher total profit. Clearly with the M-21 SxSs, he believes he's maximizing profit at his current intersection of price and sales volume. Why would he sell for less?

Jay

Jay, Not sure who answered my question? Looks like it turned into whether csms makes a good product or not. Regardless I think he would sell more SxS at 10g than 30g. Just my opinion. Bill

No doubt he would sell more if priced less. But he knows his business, and believes his profit is greater selling fewer at higher price than selling more at lower price. He doesn't think he'd sell enough at lower price to overcome the lower profit per gun.

Jay

He does sell more at ten grand than he does at thirty grand. What I can't understand is why Bill Grill waited until now to complain about the price of the Model 21. It seems like he is complaining about the low price of the over under after letting Tony have a pass for decades on the Model 21 side by side. I haven't seen many consumers complaining about the low price of consumer products. Bill is an exception.

Well the problem is I only just acquired an interest is SxS in the last few years. Also never heard of csmc before the last few years. I only wish a SxS Grand American was priced like the O/U.

Buzz,

You have not been shy about posting your views on various subjects. Nothing wrong with that as I myself have strong opinions & that is what this forum is about.

However,if you are going to comment on negative issues with CSMC to be fair to all parties you need to disclose the details. If you had a positive experience would you be reluctant to post the details?

As I indicated in my several posts on the 3/18/12 thread "Opinions wanted on CSMC Fox shotguns started by GW Smith" I am not a big fan of CSMC but I gave the factual details of my experiences to support my opinion as did others who voiced both negative & positive views of CSMC.

If you are not willing to support negative comments with the facts it's much better to keep the comments to yourself.

I really wish I could say exactly what happened; however, this is a public forum and it would be unwise for me to give specific details. I will say that a collector gun was misrepresented to me, but it was really no more misleading than the explanationCSMC has given to the general public in terms of the processes involved in the construction and manufacture of their Model 21 O/U, on their web site, which I showed proof of earlier in this thread. Apparently, this behavior is just business as usual for the folks at CSMC. And frankly, I don't take kindly to being mislead and have chosen to not do business with them again. Now, some of the people on this forum refer to this poor behavior as 'hype' or it's just 'marketing' and just sort of give CSMC a pass. Well, to me this 'hype' and 'marketing' represents dishonesty.......and I had a similar sentiment with the collector quality gun deal that I personally had with CSMC and therefore will not entertain a business deal with them again.

Bill, I think Charlie answered your question in the first reply. One is a Model 21 and the other isn't. Maybe the original "Winchester" stamps on the SxS while the O/U won't ever be stamped.

Bill, I think Charlie answered your question in the first reply. One is a Model 21 and the other isn't. Maybe the original "Winchester" stamps on the SxS while the O/U won't ever be stamped.