Here is an interesting article from the BBC about the struggle between doing things the traditional way versus the perfection modern machinery can do it. The article could just as easily been discussing double guns.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23523599

Ironic example is the use of modern quality controls to check traditional work, ie Xraying the joint of chopper lump barrels.

There is some confusion between the result and the means used to achieve it. Personally I have no fetish re "traditional hand work". I have enough technical knowledge to know that CNC machines and modern polishing processes get better results than hands, or that monobloc is the better barrel making method than chopper lump.

My interest is more in the ergonomics achieved in traditional guns and not the appeal of hand work, London addresses, prestigious names etc.

And still cannot fathom the insistence on using 17th century tinning technology involved in ribs on an item made by 21st century CNC machinery.

Just got a flash that seems somewhat related to the topic: the gourmet restaurant district in my area was paralysed by a power cut that put their microwaves out of action last year. It was then that "expert" food critics learned that a landmark resaurant's signature duck a l'orange was microwaved.

True; but isn't the reason we own old guns is the pleasure we get holding them and admiring the craftsmanship, thinking of the stories they could tell and knowing that human hands mostly made them and that they are still quite capable of doing the same as when they were new?

My view exactly.

Also if the CNC stuff is so good, why hasn't the price come down?

CNC is great, but even the best machining requires knowledgeable hand fitting. Why tin ribs today? Because it is still the best method for high quality guns. Karl Lippard has made double rifle barrels from a single billet of steel, but that venture was not well received by the market. Mono block superior to chopper lump? I'll politely disagree with your opinion on that. I love modern technology and we use it daily in our shop. That does not change what goes into a best gun though. It still takes LOTS of time, hand work and the best raw material available.

The admiration of old things is fully understood. It is a great pleasure to take an old gun apart and see the thought that went into its design, the marks left by the craftsmen that built it. No argument on that score.

However, we can do the same good work today, if we want to (and that is a big IF)with modern machines.

Why CNC has not brought down the prices? Bruce Owen, production manager of Purdeys in his article in Shooting Sportsman 14 years ago posed the same question and answered it by throwing the ball onto the marketing departments. The implications are shocking. to me anyway.

Ribs are an abomination. When I mentioned the tinning it was not to imply there is something better. These strips that do nothing but provide a hidden recess for rust are not needed. Alex Martin built ribless guns, the French Darne is usually seen with no bottom rib. The Boss OU had no top rib. There are modern alternatives, ie removable light weight strips that can give any rib shape the shooter wants yet be light and removable so the barrels can be inspected and lubricated.

Go to artsgunshop.com and watch the rib relaying video. It is sobering to realise that rust can start to eat your barrels unseen between useless ribs.

The one undeniable quality of the older well made guns is their handling and elegance. Personally I do not care for makers' names, engraving or figured walnut. I have handled so called second tier guns, like Midland, Osborne, Leech, Horsley, Martin etc that had handling equal to any London top three. I believe this handling and "bespokeability" is reproducible, especially now that CNC machines are widely used and can be programmed to incorporate slight variations that would make a shotgun fully custom. An example is Perazzis CNC stock making. But we are not quite there yet. Most makers use the machines to maximise "efficiency" in turning out indifferent shotguns.

A Purdey will always be an expensive item because it is a Purdey, whether it was made by human hands or made on a CNC machine. It's an exclusive gun, not everyone is supposed to own one and not everyone has a need to own one. Double gun owners are a conservative lot and don't care for change which is why we like our ribbed guns, etc. CNC machining has allowed Galazans to turn out some nice stuff. He could have done had it not been for technology.

I think it is fair to say we see Best quality work from vastly different viewpoints. I re-lay ribs routinely as part of daily shop life. Do I enjoy it? No, not really. Do I see them as something of an abomination? Hardly. Something always looks "off" on those Alex Martin guns. The Boss O/U? Best work by anyone's book. Vastly different guns and designs. Holland and Purdey both figured it out long ago. As to why prices have not come down, well that is pretty straight forward. Watch the video that Holland put out and see the factory. The overhead is huge! The machines cost tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars/pounds. The number of hours it takes has not come down that much and labor is much more costly than in the past.

The news ways give us repeatability, and efficiency, but they do not remove the hours or overhead required to put out a product of this nature. It still takes time, and lots and lots of skill.

Steve

SKB and I agree in thought.

Also there are ordinary gunmakers and there are highest quality gunmakers. Same with craftsmen who lay ribs. Tining the entire barrel surface between the ribs with solder, then washing and cleaning away all flux (if you use acid core solder for this tining) leaves a surface ready for laying the ribs. This surface between the ribs will prevent rust from starting--of course one must lay the ribs with rosin as flux.

By-the-way, as mentioned by SKB the Holland video is a must have for side x side and OU gun people.

Bv

Speaking of modern technology, has anyone handled a Longthorne Hesketh?

http://www.longthorneguns.com/cgi-bin/scribe?showinfo=Try-Hesketh

I was recently in England and couldn't get to the factory and there don't seem to be stockists so I still haven't seen/shot one but would love to hear about them (in addition to Mike Yardley's article)

"In eliminating the need for a heavy soldered centre rib we are able to add weight to the barrel wall thickness" per Hesketh site blurb on their solid barrels. This is exactly what can be done with monobloc ribless barrels. With the added advantage of bulging or denting one barrel means changing only that one, not the whole barrel assembly.

While innovative, I do not see Boss moving towards this method anytime soon. This methodology lends itself very well to a production line, Bespoke Best guns, not so much.

Pureys will always be Purdeys and good luck to those that like them enough to pay for them.

Quality as I perceive it is illustrated by the better quality single barrel hammer guns turned out by provincial makers. These have nothing in common with the cheap and nasty "single shot". Their balance is superb, they were made to fit the client, they are a joy to handle in terms of balance and pointability. It is this kind of pleasure in handling that defines quality for me. The decoration, maker's name, figured wood etc seem irrelevant when compared to the sheer joy of a good handling gun. Perhaps modern advertising has conditioned us to purely visual judging of things, we overlook the tactile aspects.


As to ribs. Tinning will help prevent corrosion, yes, the same can be done more easily by going ribless or at least leaving out the useless bottom rib, as in Darnes, and get a better balanced gun with less hassle. The gap in the Martin ribless, if it offends the eye, can be dealt with via a detachable top rib. We made so many things detachable in shotguns, why not ribs!

or why mess with what works and add modern gimmickry?

Myself, I'm pretty conservative when it comes to guns. Heck you could have a bolt on carbon fiber rib if you wanted. But again, why? just to say it is the newest technology? SxS guns in my view do not lend themselves to many modern upgrades.

No, not to say it is new technology, just to avoid the hassle of resoldering. Some things just do not sit right with me and all that rigmarole with clamps, torches and solder is one of them. As if that is not enough every rib resolder means rebluing. I feel sorry for guns that undergo this brutality.

Darnes with their single top rib are by no means modern. I have yet to see such a Darne with rust between the barrels. They also balance superbly without the weight of the bottom rib. For those that insist on seeing a bottom rib, the other French great, the Ideal, had an "I" secton rib that fit between the barrels. In short there were old solutions to the ribs. I wonder what we would think of the "I" rib if it had been used on "best English" as opposed to "best French".

" Heck you could have a bolt on carbon fiber rib if you wanted."

OK now were talking!!!!!!

My Holland balances as good or better than any Darne I have ever shouldered, and it does not have such a horrendous action design. One look at a Darne and you do not have to wonder long why the British best is the world wide standard.

Really ribs and the soldiering of them is not that big of a deal, nor is rust bluing once you have it mastered.

" all that rigmarole with clamps, torches and solder is one of them"

not really rigamarole, more just simple set up and quality gunwork, no real mysteries involved.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Holland makes fine guns. Is a Holland as best as it can get? I am convinced it is not, a shotgun can be simpler, more robust, less costly and still provide that fine balance and the ergonomics associated with a bespoke gun.

It can be done. Perhaps the result will not have the cache of a London address, or the complexity of a sidelock with its 19 bits per side. For this reason I respond to the original poster that new can be better than old. It is a technical consideration.

Bluing is not a big deal, but is it something that should be necessary after rib relaying, and should complete rib relaying be necessary even if a small bit of the rib is loose? To some that chain of events means deficient design.

mr shotgunlover is describing a plain barrel Remington 870 every thing you want.with out the messy ribs, plain barrel can be hot blued correct?easy to fit a stock and balance perfectly for all your gun needs with out paying for tradition, and hand work. that requires skill and time to perfect. mc

You are missing the point. I readily concede modern technology can produce a mechanically equal or superior gun to the old ones. However, the machines lack what is most appealing to me: heart and soul. Perhaps it's a bit of a romantic notion in this day and age of sameness but I am drawn to the workmanship and art of the craftsman who applied his skill to create the gun. When I look on these guns I can only stand in awe at what perfection human hands can create without using the crutches of mechanical robots. Beautiful art can be produced by machinery but it can never attain the level of a master's touch, such as the Mona Lisa by da Vinci. A gun to me is way more than just a tool, it is a unique thing of beauty and function that I never tire of admiring in the many months between seasons. One mass produced can never have that level of attraction for me. In fact, I recently cancelled my order for a CSMC Inverness, not because it won't be a wonderful shooter but I knew I'd never have an emotional attachment with it. It is a machine made gun that will just be one of hundreds identical to each other and the skills of a workman have all but been eliminated.

oh come now Joe. Don't you think those perfectly timed torx head screws would grow on you over time?

Joe Wood,

I understand your point because I too like to handle and examine old hand built shotguns. But, today's best guns, although they look and feel like ther 100 year old predecessors, have lots of high tech machine work in them. Again, I am paraphrasing Bruce Owen, production manager of Purdeys- EDM wire cutting for the preliminary profiling of the action, EDM spark erosion machining for the underbolt recess, CNC machining for the rest of the action body and most of the internal bits. The story is pretty much similar over at Hollands. THe masterful hand you will descern in these doubles is that of the CAD programmer more so than that of the old time craftsman. The change goes down to the moleculra level, as Bruce Owen points out, the newer model actions are of high strength steel, not carbon steel because the machining stresses require stronger material, his words not mine.

The machines have not diminished the feel of the modern Purdeys and Hollands compared to the old ones, but you might not find those friendly faint file marks inside their actions.

MC- what I was hinting at was not an 870, even though my definition of best does not exclude pumps. The synthesis I had in mind was a Baker actioned double (Baker was a prolific English inventor who gave us the Baker ejector and the Lancaster 12/20 action), so our gun's genealogy is "proper". His coil sprung sidelock action finished to a high standard, with high quality monoblock barrels, plain extractors, ribless, with a nice straight grained american walnut stock made to measure would be a fine shotgun. External shape would be very like the Holland Dominion, and equally unengraved. It could be made to sell around 3000 dollars.

I would not mind such a double. Would you?

shotgunlover you are pissing into the wind.

Objective reality has no place on this BBS

This is the fantastical wonderland of romanticized crap.

Deal with it

HTH

have a day

Dr.WtS

some of us Romanticize all day long for living.....

I am reminded of the power of romance every time I come across yet another junky Spanish sidelock with model names such as "Connaught" or "London" etc.

one does need to know the difference between the real deal and poor quality imitations and it does take some time to able to see it.

Part of my job is appraisal of shotguns, so not being able to tell the difference would spell bankruptcy. Some of the most challenging cases are good guns with no makers' names, the most memorable a best quality Birmingham boxlock. That one taught me a lot about brand value.

i like sxs with ribs and wood and southgate ejectors.and the little signs that a person a hundred or so years ago worked on fitting parts.and left layout lines to hand cut the engraving.machine made parts and hand fit and finish works really well. i like classic guns, classic guitars, classic amps, classic cars, classic motorcycles.because of the hand work each one is a little different.i dont think this is romantic crap.but i do know a turd when i see one.

Hello Gentlemen, Gnomon, sorry you didnt get to try our gun when you visited last, if you are in the UK again, please let us know and we can arrange to meet you, alternatively we can send our gun to one of our Agents.

SKB nice to meet you. Our guns are not 'production line' they are all individually made to measure.

The way we make our barrels has several advantages and in fact, barrels made out of solid billets were first patented in 1857 by Sir Joseph Whitworth. Unfortunately labour costs at the time were cheap and technology expensive in comparison,for this reason gunmakers retained old methods, we are fortunate in that we already have the technology in place. Although our designs are different from Whitworths the benefits are the same. We feel that some of the turn of the century shotguns are wonderful however commercialism has taken over in some areas and the feel of those guns has been lost along the way. It is important to us to make guns which have the balance and pointablity of 'olde'. I hope you have the opportunity to try one of our guns one day and see for yourself how it feels.


I have attached the following link to our 'barrel innovation' page on our website listing some of the benefits, it also explains that our barrels are very much stronger than conventional barrels so are far less likely to 'dent'.

http://www.longthorneguns.com/cgi-bin/scribe?showinfo=Try-Hesketh

Thank you for listening

Our very best wishes
Longthorne Gunmakers

Hi Elaine, nice to meet you too.

Your process is interesting. As I said earlier, I am very conservative when it comes firearms. I do not see hot blue to be an improvement over rust blue. Nice your able to use either process, but good guns get rust blued in my eyes. Hot blue is now more durable than rust blue? I will respectfully disagree with you on that point. The really heavy loads of steel shot also have a place, but I'm an upland shooter and 1&1/8 oz of lead is more my preferred load. I read through your barrel innovation page several times. I'm still not convinced it is in any way an improvement over the traditional methods. Less recoil due to straighter barrels? Recoil is simply a factor of the shot payload, velocity and the weight of the gun. Interesting marketing tactic, but the engineering principles behind recoil have not changed with your new process. I don't want to come off as too critical, every gun shown on your web site looks well made, but I am skeptical that this design is better in any fashion. Best of luck with your venture, they really do look to very nicely made.
Steve

No doubt the solid-solid barrels are strong.

With so much technology floating around I was expecting to see steps towards another direction, that taken by the amateur double rifle builders over at Nitroexpress.com and have barrels that screw into a monobloc. Pieper tried that too if I remember right. Admittedly the Baby Bretton has them, but that is one ugly gun.

Why barrels that screw in? Because then they can be changed individually if and when necessary. Combine those with the replaceable lump shoes of a Parker and a bushing on the cross pin as in the Model 21 and the gun becomes infinitely repairable, a worthwhile consideration for objects that last 100 years or more.

Welcome to the BBS, Elaine. I do hope you'll visit frequently and contribute your thoughts and opinions whenever. On this board your fellow contributors are amongst the most enthusiastic supporters of double guns. And the depth of knowledge is incredible. Again, WELCOME! Regardless of the method of barrel construction your guns seem to have the heart and soul this topic is discussing. Congratulations.

Welcome, Elaine. I have admired the L.H. guns since you introduced them, though I have never handled one.

The locks are beautiful, and the wood staining and finishing as well. Very nice guns.

All the best, SRH

Thank you so much Gentlemen for your lovely welcome to your forum, I respect all your opinions and I hope that in the not too distant future we will have some guns over there for you to try.

In the meantime very happy shoot

Best wishes
Elaine
Longthorne Gunmakers

The article OP linked to poses the problem very nicely. And this thread picks up on most of the issues. Not being a theologian I can't really talk to the soul of an object, hand made or otherwise. And, though I'm accused of being a romantic occasionally, my romantic tendencies incline toward women and ideas more than guns and dogs.

So, personally my taste runs towards custom made rather than hand made, and CNC tooling for the innards and hand checkering/engraving on the outside. That's just me and your mileage may vary.

As for why we haven't seen any cost reduction from the adoption of CNC production, I suspect two factors are in play--a return on the brand equity that owners of makers such as Purdy's and H&H expect (European luxury goods conglomerates in both cases) and the small production volumes over which tooling costs must be amortized.

Before the Spanish started having their problems, the perception that a 'Spanish best' was 90% of a London gun at 10% of the price was common. Most of that was brand premium. But--people wear bespoke suits and walk on hand knotted rugs and shoot London bests for all kinds of reasons, and clothing their nakedness, keeping the mud off their boots and putting a bird in the pot have very little to do with it.

The one piece double gun barrel is not a new thing, far from it.
Jean Breuil was a specialist almost 100 years ago...and sans CNC...Now, that's real skill.
If you ever see a French gun with "MONOBLOC" on it, it does not mean sleeved (that would be "canons frettes"), it means that it was built from a single block of steel.
Not common but out there none the less.
And yes there is a bit of weight improvement, albeit not gigantic.
Best regards,
WC-

It is duly noted that the Italian maker Berretta has used the term Monobloc for years. In this case the term means exactly what it says the rear "Bloc" is made of one piece (Mono) of steel with the individual tubes being inserted (From the Front) into the Bloc.
The Belgian Henri Pieper originated the method but did not use the term Monobloc. In his original design the tubes were inserted from the rear of the Bloc, so you see a step where they emerge from the "Bloc". Later he did make barrels with the tubes inserted from the front without the step also. Many Darne (French) barrels were built on this Monobloc principal & they too used a tubed Bloc, not one piece bbls.

Yes. A lot well said here, in relatively few words.

Jay

Cannons Frettes as described by a French gunsmith is where the monobloc is heat shrunk onto the barrel tubes. It is a process borrowed from artillery pieces and probably a bit of overengineering for shotguns.

It may also be used for sleeving, but I have not yet come across that usage.

"Custom made rather than hand made" is well put. There is a new industrial trend, mass customisation, in the pipeline and it might yet surprise us all with what it can do for the shotgunner.

Good Morning Gentlemen,

To clarify, our barrels, are not 'Monoblock' We manufacture the entire barrel set including the'monoblock' section and forend loop from the same billet of steel there are no joins whatsoever in our barrels. We start with a 62lb billet of steel and the resulting (30") barrels weigh approximately 2lb 14oz.

Hello Gunflint Charlie, you are quite correct the investment needed to produce guns in this way and to our level of quality and precision is a very significant factor some of which (in our case) has to be recouped

My best wishes
Elaine
Longthorne Gunmakers

I think it is interesting that when Shooting Sportsman publishes an article about a gun or gunmakers it is almost always a very expensive custom gun costing tens of thousands of dollars or more. Yet, when they have an article on real hunting, excepting a tame quail hunt, most of the guns involved are entry level O/Us and the occasional autoloader that cast $2000 or less. "Best" guns are more finely made and awfully pretty to look at, but they do not function any better than mainstream guns. They can be enjoyed for their looks and craftsmanship, but they do not send a swarm of shot towards the target any better. If Best guns actually functioned better than "regular" guns then many of the very wealthy who are serious target shooters would be wielding Holland sporters or one-off Italian guns. I have done very well both in the field and at clays with Beretta, L. C. Smith, Ithaca and Fox sxs. A best would not help me shoot any better, but it would be more fun and add a different, luxurious form of pleasure to my day.
Regards,
Jeff

Mr Stewart,
I get the impression from reading your post that you are the owner of the factory, is this correct?
On 01/19/2012 right here on this forum a member by the name Longhorne wrote: “we are planning to do a side x side model but it's just in the design stages at the moment”
In response, I wrote this to him:
“Let me stop you there dear Sir for a moment:
You are planning to build A side by side, correct? Have you ever thought of a side by side like no other… one that exhibits performance that cannot be surpassed, or even duplicated… one that has no equal, one that cannot be beaten… THE side by side… …
Just think of it as the Bugatti Veyron of shotguns……
Would you like more information?”
Is this person affiliated with your company in any way, and did my words ,as written above ,ever reach you?

Thank you

Beretta Ariston, it took me all of about 10 seconds to determine that Elaine Stewart is the Marketing Director of Longthorne and that she probably is usually addressed with a "Ms, Miss or Mrs."

Unlikely, although possible, she is the factory owner.

Dear Beretta Ariston,
Thank you for your continued interest, I did respond to your post 19.1.12, although it was small so you may have missed it. Apologies.

Canvasback, hello, I am indeed Elaine Stewart (Mrs) but Elaine is fine :-). I am Co Director/Owner of Longthorne Gunmakers.

We are planning to make a side-x-side and it will be very different to others, we are hoping it will be considered to be the 'Bugatti Veyron' of shotguns :-)

Best wishes