Hey folks, I was looking at a Lefever H grade today and the bbls have two different serial numbers on them with the last two digits being reversed on the one that does not match the rest of the gun.
Also, the owner says it has ejectors, but if it did it would have an E after the H correct?
Guesses as to why the digits on the serial number are reversed? Also, would it normally have a serial number on each bbl?
Thanks,
Shane
Here is the forearm if it helps with the ejector question.
Nope, no "E" after the H.
Proves that guns had a lot of handwork put in them back then. Just imagine the look on the guy's face when he figured out he had transposed two numbers in the serial - a century or so ago.
Best,
Mike
Does it also seem to be a different font and quality of stamping? And can anyone with a lefever handy tell me if there are usually numbers on both bbls?
This is not an ejector gun. The ejector system on this era gun would be incorporated into the frame.
Thanks TB. I figured as much since there was no E stamped on the frame.
So this is a later model H grade correct? I has no engraving on the side plates besides "Lefever Arms Co."
It is a nice gun and if I can get it right, I'll likely buy it with the idea of reselling it if I am not in love with it (I prefer 28" bbls and this one has 30" bbls) The bbl finish is pretty even with what is seen here and there are even traces of case coloring left on the side plates.
Still boggled by the serial number snafu though. ha!
Thanks,
Shane
Shane no production information for Lefever guns remains but by extrapolation this gun was made about 1904. The twist barrels show plenty of contrast and there are good colors remaining on the water table so I would say it has seen realativley light use and has been pretty well cared for. If you can get it right go for it. You will not be able to use "modern" high pressure loads but companies like RST make low pressure ammunition suitable for damascus and twist barrls that are effective for clay target shooting and upland gamebirds.
I had a G that had barrels with different serial numbers. The best guess was that it had been sent back to have one barrel replaced. Yours appears to be a simple mix-up at the factory. Without the factory records, we will never be sure.
Pete
Although Lefever guns with ejectors were cataloged with an E following the grade as HE, they were not normally marked that way on the gun itself. You cannot look at the forend on a Lefever from the inframe ejector period & say whether it has ejectors or not.
However as TwiceBarrel said this one doesn't, if it did you could see the hammers in the action flats.
Thanks guys. Interesting to think there could be a mistake like that in serial numbers. Just another pretty amazing reminder that these guns are truly hand made works.
Thanks again TB, I already by shells by the truck load from Polywad for my other double guns (Fox, Ithaca, AJ Aubrey) so I already have appropriate shells on hand, and it'll be checked by a smith before firing of course.
So, I was a little surprised to see some of the auction prices on these guns, they seem to be selling below book? I think I can buy this one at about 60% of book value, about $600 or so.
This is an Ithaca assembled Lefever. The serial numbers from that group of guns are all over the place. The original Lefevers didn't put the grade on the barrels. It is quite possible those barrels weren't used on a gun by the original company because of the mistake, or the second number was stamped to match the frame by Ithaca.
Interesting Dr. Bob, although the first sounds more likely doesn't it? If they stamped the other number later and it just happened to almost match... what a coincidence that would have been. Although we'll never know will we?
In general, are Ithaca-assembled guns held at a lower value than those assembled by the original company? The difference in Philly and Utica Sterlingworths come to mind.
Shane
If the bbl finish is original,,I'd guess the 55407H number is the first to have been applied of the two number stampings on the bbls.
That number has soft solder in the stamp impressions and the impressions has it's raised imprint filed or polished flat with the bbl surface.
That tells me the stamp was on the tube when it was assembled along with the ribs & soldered together.
Then the assembly cleaned up of excess solder before the finish applied.
The other number (55470) looks to have been stamped into the surface before the finish applied (in the white), and after any soldering work was done (no run over solder in the impressions) and also no polishing down of the raised portion of the imprint(s) was done after it was stamped.
The different sets of stamps used on the bbl numbers has already been noted.
55470 on the frame and forend was done with yet a different set of stamps than the 55470 on the bbl.
Just observations of the stampings themselves,,I don't have any idea of how/when Lefever (or Ithaca) marked the bbls and parts during mfg & assembly.
I had an E grade XX frame 16ga Lefever that not only had an dyslexic serial number anomoly but the name Lefever was mispelled on the frame. That gun was death on quail. I traded it off to another member here for a Parker...Geo
Gun was built on Monday morning.
Not a double gun, but I once owned an H&R Model 999 Sportsman that had most of the major parts serial numbered. On a couple of them, the last two digits were reversed (71 instead of 17 - why would I remember that, anyway?). Since the stampings lined up so well, I always assumed that the group of numbers went into a holder and the holder had been dropped or the numbers had fallen out and been replaced improperly. Not that it matters, but Lefever wasn't the only company with this happening from time to time.
Ithaca assembled guns aren't necessarily less valuable than the original Lefever Arms Co guns because all of the parts were made by the LAC (except the stocks)before the takeover by Ithaca. Ithaca assembled some very fine guns. They also assembled mismatched and factory upgraded guns.
I have an E grade with ejectors, an 1898 build,. there is no E for ejector on the water table, the tang serial is 20,XXX, while the barrels, water table, and forearm all sport 26,XXX, same last three numbers.
FYI, I bought this gun today for $650. There is more case coloring than I thought there would be and after a simple oil wipe down the contrast on the damascus bbls is really very nice. It's a neat piece. Not sure if I'll turn it around and sell it or hang onto it for a bit. I'll post some better photos in a bit. It's a pretty neat original gun.
Oh, one more thing.... 13.25 inches to the factory black butt plate... does that seem short for the LOP on this gun? That's to the front trigger.
Oh, and it's for sure extractors, not ejectors.
13.25" LOP is shorter than typical for uncut Lefevers, but this is not totally out of the question. There were a lot more grown men closer to 5 feet tall than there are today, and it could have been ordered that way. The original buttplate would be an L.A.Co. monogram buttplate, and the wood would have a curved cut to meet the curved buttplate. Look for signs that the border on the buttplate has been dressed down to fit a shortened stock.
The stock is probably cut as the factory wood is a bit concave as is the plate. Heating the plate allows bending, so when wood is cut, the plate is flattened to match. A slip on pad should get you out to the length you want with no further alterations needed.
Looks like a very nice gun.
Thanks Terry, I actually don't mind a short stock terribly. One of the guns I shoot the best is a little Nitro Special 20 gauge that's barely 13 inches to the front trigger. It's a great gun in the tight woods of South Louisiana. Two years ago I went three for three on woodcock with it. A feat I imagine I won't repeat soon.
A nice leather slip on pad might be a nice touch for the club though.
Thanks,
Shane
Lefever serial number, different on both barrels, usually mean the gun was rebarrelled or some replacement was done later than the manufacture of the gun. This gun may have been barrelled with the original serial number, and soon after, another set of barrels was selected for final assembly and shipping. The lower number (the barrel not matching the rest of the gun) could have been the number assigned to the final replacement barrels. If the lower number had been a mistake, they would not have left it in place. I would be buying this gun for $600.
That could be EB. But the lower number has been filled with solder at some point and I think the finish has worn off of it faster than the rest of the bbl. Plus would they have gone backwards in serial numbers? I suppose it's possible.
Anyhow, I like the gun... headed out to shoot it now and it'll stick around..... unless I find some poor guy with a 16 who wishes it was a 12!
Shane
Going backwards. Would mean that lower number parts were in inventory when switch was requested, probably before the gun left the factory. Or what you suggest, an error. Why don't you ask on the Lefever forum where the Lefever experts hang out?
I posted this at the Lefever site before remembering this thread. I was recently and briefly shown a Lefever book. I am unsure of the title since the book was already open to a page. A picture on that page depicted a higher grade with “double stamp” that was described as an indication of factory work/repair.
The following photo demonstrates the different, but sequential, serial numbers on this G stamped with different tools. It seems to resemble the H in this thread in that 45656 G seems to be filled with solder as Kutter described.
I don’t necessarily agree with 8b’s first point that would have us discussing in this thread alone several surviving examples of replaced barrels. I am surprised though that a gun would have to be stamped this way after factory repair.
The following photo could be considered evidence of factory work in that serial 45656 could have been stamped on the extractor (you should be able click on the picture to zoom) as a replacement. The more likely explanation has to be related to 8B’s second point “This gun may have been barrelled with the original serial number, and soon after, another set of barrels was selected for final assembly and shipping.”
Kutter‘s theory would have barrel set, with extractors, stamped 45656 prior to assembly. A change in plans leads 45656 action being fitted with a different set of barrels and barrel set 45656 being set aside and fit to the next one down the line 45657. All other parts are stamped or engraved 45657.
Shoot straight,
Bird
I have been collecting and looking at Lefever numbers for over 20 years now. I've finely gotten enough of them to tell the story on how Lefever's were numbered. About 90% of the things you hear about the way Lefever's were numbered is wrong.
As for the way your double numbered gun is numbered its 100% right.
Well Bob, would you care to share WHY you think it is numbered 100% right? I've revived this thread to add to the conversation and to find that out.
Shoot straight,
Bird
Jeff, I was not suggesting that this gun is an example of a double number rebarrel at the factory, but it is well documented that rebarrels and added barrels were "double numbered".
I see 8b. Thanks for clarifying.
