I am looking at a nice Francotte subgauge sideplated boxlock from the 20s that suffers from only one shortcoming - it was equipped with a Miller single trigger. I have nothing against Miller triggers, other than they are one trigger short of a load, so I am looking into converting the gun to a DT.

Apparently the slot is a standard DT slot, so there should be room for DTs. However, there may be an issue with the trigger bow being too short for two triggers, and I need to locate two triggers. Any ideas on how to source triggers for this gun - do they need to be Francotte triggers?

Making the triggers seems like a potentially expensive undertaking, plus new triggers on a 85-year old gun would stand out like a sore thumb, I would think.

What would be a reasonable estimate for the conversion work, assuming the original trigger guard can be used and spare part triggers can be found?

Thanks in advance, Doverham

I believe there is more to it than just installing triggers. The sears were altered when the Miller trigger was installed, also the trigger slot was changed to use their trigger. My experience with the Miller trigger is that they are probably the best.

I would pay a Premium for a Miller SST. Converting it back, and it may not be a conversion at all, would be quite expensive. I might think that the conversion would be as expensive as a Francotte 20E . One might think of selling the gun and buying a two trigger gun. I'd bet you would be far ahead on money.

Yup, the sear legs were heated and bent. Someone would love that gun as it is.

If it was converted from a double trigger to a single has the bow been altered as well or is it as it was originally ?
Having converted a few guns to double trigger mainly to get rid of a troublesome non functional single trigger it is a lot easier than doing it the other way round .Being a box lock makes the job a lot more straight forward than if it were a side lock. All jobs like this would need to be well looked at first to ascertain any problems ,how much wood has been removed ,will the safe work correctly etc, before committing .

Thanks for the responses - just to be clear, I have not bought the gun yet. The gun is a VL&D and was sold originally with the Miller trigger. But I don't know if that means it was made in Belgium with DTs and converted when imported, or if the Miller trigger was installed when the gun was made in Belgium. Sounds like that could be an important distinction. To my eye, the trigger bow looks like a DT, which would suggest it was converted when imported and not installed by the maker.

In either event, it sounds like it needs to go to a gunsmith for an evaluation.

Doverham,

Just my $.02 but I've finally come around to where I prefer double triggers on my shotguns after paying extra $$ for the privilege of having single triggers on my guns for years.

That said, I still own & shoot guns with single triggers & if I found a gun I really liked in all respects except for a "good" single trigger such as a Miller I surely would not let that keep me from owning it & using it with the single trigger. I have shot several guns with Millers & the triggers are excellent once you get past the look of the trigger with "MILLER" stamped on it.

I'm on the same page with Brittany Man.

Converting it back to double triggers is not an impossible task. In addition to the obviously needed triggers, the trigger plate has to be restored by welding up the trigger plate to a 2 slot arrangement as well as possibly adding the trigger fulcrums for the hinge pins of the triggers. Then like Bill said, the sears need to be straightened and maybe built up depending on how much metal might have been removed. If the trigger guard is too small, that's another issue.

You gotta want double triggers on this particular gun pretty badly to either do this yourself or pay to have it done. I'm guessing you're gonna run into costs exceeding what it costs to put in a Miller trigger today, if a reputable gunsmith does the work.

Hah - if I tried to do this, we'd end up with the top lever firing the barrels and the triggers opening the action, plus a lot of duct tape all over the place.

Clearly this is not the simple conversion I was hoping for. If I were to go the ST route, Miller seems like a very reliable choice. I am just too hooked on DTs.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Are you referring to this gun?





Adam

Not that one (which looks like a keeper!) but very similar. This one has game scene engraving and full coverage fine scroll engraving. Half hand grip too.

I have a 30E with a Miller and the safety also is the barrel selector, forward for the right first and back for the left barrel first so a two trigger conversion would also have to replace the safety. If it has birds on it it is likely a 30E. Someone has the import records for these but can't remember right of hand who, they may post and will look up the gun for you if you have the serial # .

dblfever

Are you positive that you have a Miller trigger on the 30E? All the Miller selective triggers I have seen had the bbl selector on the trigger plate in front of the trigger blade.

I'm always interested in learning something new & if Miller made selective triggers with the selector via the safety I would be interested in approximately what time frame this was.

Hi All,

Elmer Miller patented a trigger body mounted selector in 1939. It did not have a spring detent to hold position and I don't think it was very successful. I don't believe he produced many triggers on this patent and most selective Miller triggers from inception until 1962 selected off the safety. In 1962, Miller patented the now familiar trigger body mounted selector. This switch had a spring detent which allowed it to positively hold position and works wonderfully. This is the style of selector that we produce today. Miller wanted to move away from the safety based selector because it is a much weaker system mechanically, depending on a long, thin music wire spring connecting the safety to the cam. The 1962 patent selector is a much improved system in that it is much more robust, positive and is very fast to select in the field once you get used to it.

Best, Dan

Dan,

Thank you for the informaion on Miller triggers. I've probably only seen a dozen or less Miller selective triggers & all were of the 1962 patent selector type which you decribed.

As you state it's a very good design that works well.

I was unaware of the safety actuated selector type.

It clearly is stamped MILLER on both sides of the trigger. The safety has a gold S in the middle that needs to be just above the safety slide to be in safe position and the selector is front and back as described in my other post. My gun dates to 1921 I believe. Would post pics but don't know how to get them on here.

I'll add this for Doverham's benefit since he is turned off by the Miller trigger on the Francotte he is asking about.

As I stated in a prior post I now prefer double triggers but in cold weather when I need to wear insulated gloves I have difficulty getting my finger between the front & rear trigger on most guns & a lot of single trigger designs won't reliably reset for the second shot for me when I'm wearing gloves.

The Miller trigger resets like none other that I'm aware of & although I've never shot one while wearing gloves I would bet it will reset w/o any problem. Dan May might have a comment on this.

Having a gun set up for cold weather hunting wouldn't be a bad idea.

The Miller trigger resets via the power of the sear springs. The only requirement is that the trigger be released after firing for reset. We've never had a complaint about reset wearing gloves. As long as the gloves aren't so thick that they fill up the trigger guard and don't allow the trigger to move forward, you should have no problems.

Best, Dan

Interesting how these threads develop - there is some good information on Miller STs being provided. I have nothing against Millers, just a very strong preference for DTs. The gun in question was made in 1925 and the pics indicate the same barrel selector that dblfever describes - which sounds like an easy selector to get used to.

Thanks all for the input.

Dan,

Thanks again for the Miller trigger info. I never had the opportunity to see one dissasembled. Now I understand why they require removal of the intercepting sears on sidelocks.

The few that I have shot had an extremely positive reset which I liked.

I'm not really wild about the removal of the intercepting sears on a field gun but it wouldn't bother me on a target or pigeon gun & of course most boxlocks don't have or need intercepting sears anyway.