as widely as possible. This is testimony delivered in written form to the US Senate today.

http://www.judiciary.senate.gov/pdf/1-30-13KopelTestimony.pdf

While it is long, it is abundantly footnoted and academically sound. And, most importantly, it refutes every gun-control myth we're being sold.

Use it for facts to refute hysterical bullsh*t.

Amen

I tried to print it but my computer would not print the document.

Help

Try this: save the document as a .pdf document, close the document, then open your Adobe reader, open the document in the Adobe reader and print it through the Adobe reader. If you don't have it, here's a site where you can get the Adobe reader for free: http://get.adobe.com/reader/

The site says you can use the free reader to print documents....

FB'd it...good circulation among freedom lovers there.

Dave,
Thanks for passing this on. An excellent, non-emotional dissertation on the topic.

My pleasure. Calmly presented cold hard facts are usually the best medicine.

In other news, today's New York Times and other media outlets are reporting NY governor Cuomo has lost 15 percentage points from his approval rating in the last month. Both the pollsters and Cuomo's people are attributing that decline to his stance on guns. But, Cuomo's people say he is sticking with his position and unafraid of the consequences, that it's time for hard choices and so on.

Politicians need to be reminded - politely! - that regardless of what is whispered in their ears by their courtiers or own egos, there is no law, divine or otherwise, that dictates that they in particular are to occupy elective office. They need to be reminded they can very easily be replaced and compelled to go out and get a real job and also that you are a gun owner, vote, and have lots of friends and a long memory.

Politely reminded.

Great point Dave, I think elections do matter. There's a good thread at the top of the page that has tons of good cold hard facts. Admittedly, they don't always work like you pointed out, but they are there none the less.

I went ahead and replied in this thread but I am unsure as to why the initiator didn't just append his opening post to Dave Webers thread above?

IMO: It would be a good idea to call David Kopel up as a live witness in the Congressional hearings. I will email my Senators and recommend just that.
Jim


Update:
I just sent the following email to both of the Arizona Senators. I encourage all of you to do the same in your own States.

Senator :

Now that the Feinstein hearings are being held in regards to gun control; I want to go on record in opposition to any bill reinstating the failed "assault weapons ban". This is an attack on the symptoms and not the problems. Please urge your collegues to support mental heath reform to get mentaly ill people off the streets. I also believe it's a good idea to provide armed security guards for all our schools. "Gun Free Zones" have made these schools attractive targets for mentally deranged individuals like the Newtown murderer. If armed security is good enough for President Obama's children it ought to be essential for the State of Arizona's residents children.

Sincerely Jim XXXXXXX
Scottsdale, AZ

I think one important point was left out. The 1911 was mentioned, the 1100 etc. Of course the 1911 is 101 years old.

Here's the point left out. We hear a lot about the high cap. mags. Well, the 1935 13 round High Power has been available to the public since 1935. Wonder why it took 50 years for the gun grabbers to complain?......liberal infiltration of the media and the public education system; Plus a gradual loss of repect of life.

Footnote #68 to the subject Senate testimony is titled:

"How the British Gun Control Program Precipitated the American Revolution".

It is a very documented history lesson about WHY we have the Second Amendment. The link below will take you to the abstract. Once there the entire document will easily download.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1967702

Kopel was one of the live witnesses yesterday, alongside Giffords, Kelly, LaPierre and one or two others whose names I forget. The linked document was his written testimony. The usual drill in Senate and House hearings, is for the witnesses to submit written testimony in a form like that document, and then open themselves up to questions from the Congresscritters. The Congresscritters are presumed to have read the written testimony and thus are presumed to be asking questions to clarify their understanding of it, address contradictions/inconsistencies or make argument points with their colleagues. The reality is that there is so much information deluging them they can't and usually don't read the testimony. If it does get read, it's usually by their staff, who summarize it for them. It gets put into the Congressional Record nonetheless.

Kopel's testimony is, regardless, hard facts.

Dave-in Maine, weren't you one of the big Obama/Biden supporters just a few short months ago? What did you expect when you voted for two of the most anti-gun Senators in U.S. history? Do you also hire convicted pedophiles to babysit your kids?

Some here ask why anyone would use the term Libtard. You can't make this shit up.

Thanks very much for posting this, Dave. It is exactly what you say it is.

+2

No, I was not.

You can argue with/about me or you can go to work on persuading politicians to do the right thing, but there's only so many hours in a day and if you choose to waste them on making up shit, well, that's your life you're wasting and your problem.

took a fast look at the 30 some pages, found (what can be done ) very informative pages 23-28. Spot on as refute more gun controls Pilgrim

Gee, I don't know how I concluded you were an Obama supporter. Maybe it was from your post # 286100 on 7/21/12 in the "Re" Aurora Massacre where you said that Obama was not going to do anything to advance gun control. Or maybe it was from your post # 276607 on 4/28/12 from the "Re: Two Different Worlds" thread where you attempted to convince us that Obama's SCOTUS nominee, Elena Kagan, is actually pro-gun despite her long anti-gun record. Or maybe it was from your post #272933 on 3/28/12 where you claimed Dick Cheney was drunk when he shot his friend, and that the range was less than 10 yards, and that he never apologized for his actions. Or maybe it was from your post #300950 on 11/18/12 where you opined that those of us who blamed the economic collapse on Bill Clinton's Affordable Housing Act were just using Fox News-speak for "blaming niggers and spics" because "that's what "Rethuglicans" do." Or it might even be your post # 289916 of 8/20/12 from the "Massive Gov't Ammunition Purchases thread where you suggested that the story was put up by Republicans to stir up anti-black, anti-Muslim voters and put them into a frenzy of anti-Obama fear...

Shall I go on? What about the time you stood up for the Obama administration's actions in Fast and Furious and blamed George Bush for starting that program even though the criminal scope and anti-Second Amendment intent was pure Obama/Holder. If you try to defend all this, your client really will have a fool for a lawyer.

This thread reminds me of someone who gets drunk, smokes in bed, burns the house down, and then decides to buy a smoke alarm.

Making up shit? It's pretty obvious who's making up shit. I can't understand why so many Obama supporters are too embarassed to admit it given his stellar record. Your little denial sounds a lot like Hillary's Congressional Benghazi massacre testimony or the Chuck Hagel Sec'y. of Defense confirmation hearings where he denied saying to Al Jazeera that the U.S. was the world's bully even after he was quoted verbatim and his words were replayed.

To paraphrase you, that's what you Liberal Dumbocrats do.

I don't care who Dave in Maine voted for. I don't care who Dave Kopel voted for.

It doesn't matter what page anyone was on two months ago. We are besieged, and ought to be unified, possessing a sense of urgency.

It is an excellent read. Thanks, Dave.

Sam

I picked up on this from Dave's posting on the 16 ga. forum. Since I re-posted on my FB page, it was further shared by friends there -- and read by some of my friends who are Obama supporters.

Jay

Very good Keith, this sentence pretty much sums it up....!....


Sam H:

"It is impossible to circle the wagons when some are driven by Libtards, because they will invariably turn left when the others turn right".......!......


Large donations to the NRA is the best way, where there are no Libtards or spineless people..........

Donations to the NRA is the ONLY way. The NRA is the only thing I donate to anymore. The NRA is my church and my religion. If we lose any part of our 2nd ammendment all else is lost and the idiot libtards better realize it. I'm proud to be one of those "clingers" president zero hates.

I'd feel better about 2nd protection if our side stopped shooting itself in the foot with the makes-no-difference between 10 and larger magazines, cross-messaging of the worst kind. The antis are saying if the difference is 6-8 seconds what's the problem of excluding the 10-plus?

What's wrong?
It's "feel good" legislation period. And that's aside from the fact that there are untold millions of 10+ round magazines already in circulation that are untracable. I've been around firearms my whole life and the only real shooting advantage with high capacity magazines is with full-auto military firarms examples. What would you propose the government do in regard to these million already in existance?
Do you really think people would voluntarily turn them in?

MOLON LABE

Jim

It's the mixed-messaging that concerns me, Jim, not the facts you mention to which everyone here agrees. Anything that gives leverage to the antis is no consolation to me.

Doug,

I don't know the history here, but I know it is possible for people to wake up after a long sleep. Even on the subguns forum there were people who bashed the recent R candidate and swore we had nothing to fear from O on gun control - I'm just not one to administer comeuppance at a time like this.

I fully agree concerning NRA. Money is important, so is membership. Every person in my household is now a life member, and I convinced two others to become life members. I wish every firearm owner in the US would join.

Sam

Sam,

I also wish EVERY gun owner in this country would join the NRA and contribute.......It would definitely help........

The people still in a deep sleep, as you say, who voted for and support Obongo, thus voting to destroy our great nation, piece by piece, disgust me.......the ones that lie about it, disgust me even more......

Quote:
"Even on the subguns forum there were people who bashed the recent R candidate and swore we had nothing to fear from O on gun control"

I hate to keep repeating this but keep one thing in mind. Not everyone on a firearms forum is truly a defender of our 2nd Amendment rights. We have had our share of trolls on this forum doing anything to keep factual information of what Obama was and is up to as buried as possible. It's a common ploy on firearms forums and one the administration here thankfully didn't fall for.
Jim

We've told you and the other lullers how acquiescing to a reduced magazine ban makes a difference on many occasions. How long do you think it will be before some nut-bar shoots a bunch of innocents in a school or theatre using multiple handguns and multiple 10 round magazines? The Obama administration has been extremely lax in prosecuting prohibited persons who have attempted to buy guns through legal sources. They are clearly after law abiding gun owners and I believe they don't prosecute these illegal attempted buyers because they really want killings to occur so they can advance their agenda. How else would you explain it? He keeps telling us that we need his new restrictions if it will only save a few lives. So why this glaring sin of omission King?

The predictable incrementalist gun banner response will be to call for restrictions on handguns and further reductions in magazine capacity. Then when that doesn't work, they will go after pump shotguns or anything with a magazine. Then when that doesn't work, the hue and cry will be to ban all repeaters, including our doubles. The end game for Obama and his kind is the total elimination of the Second Amendment and private ownership of firearms. He has said so with his own mouth, so fake photo-op pictures of him shooting a shotgun are nothing more than a Democrat I.Q. test to me. Anyone who believes that is stupid, pure and simple.

How many times does the scenario have to be played out around the world before you understand that if we give an inch, they will take 37 miles?

The origins of this thread remind me of the scene at a gun show I attended a couple weeks ago. Multiple lines formed around the buildings long before the doors opened. A sea of humanity crowded in to stock up on guns and magazines and ammunition. And I thought, if only half of these fools had looked at the facts and voted for anyone but Obama, we wouldn't be in a mad rush to stock up on commodities (at highly inflated prices) that we have a civil right to posess. I agree we need to stick together at times like this, but when will we learn that times like this keep arising because so many gun owners are so damn gullible?

Keith, I'd suggest that "they really want killings to occur" puts you in the same tinfoil hat crowd as those who believe Bush knew about 9/11 in advance, or that our own govt did it, or that FDR knew about Pearl Harbor in advance. I would explain "it"--the non-prosecution of those prohibited who attempt to buy guns and are stopped by the background check--as nothing all that unusual if you look at the legal system as a whole. Plea bargains. Back in Iowa, where I used to live, they just had a trial for a man who scammed investors out of 200 million plus. Guilty, maximum penalty: 50 years, no parole. It got a lot of publicity both because of the extent of the scam and because the perp got the max penalty. What that says is that others, who don't scam to the same degree, maybe get no prison time (plea bargain) or a significantly reduced sentence. Happens all the time in the legal world.

What can be done, in the case of further gun laws, is to point out--as is being pointed out in the suggested immigration reform--that enforcing existing laws needs to come first. Put pressure on prosecutors to place more emphasis on people trying to buy guns illegally than, say, on those who get busted for one marijuana joint. But I don't think we should assume that this administration wants to see more killings so they can promote an anti-gun agenda, any more than the left should have assumed that Bush was in on 9/11 so he could go invade Iraq.

Gentlemen,

Did any of you read the document at the link below. It so clearly states in documented references WHY we have the 2nd Amendment! In this document you will learn exactly what type of militia the 2nd Amendment allows. That is Joe American with his own "service rifle" who is not under the control of a state's Governor. Today that service rifle would be a semi-auto AR or AK with 30 round magazines!

Do the research and then discuss rather than make emotional decisions such as the anti-gunners do.

Mark

Mark, although numerous National Guard units trace their lineage back to colonial times, the "militia" of that era was, in fact, every man of military age. Basically, the population in arms. We no longer have the equivalent.

Yes Larry, that is what I stated and offered reference documents of the revolutionary period that verify that. Those references could be very powerful to a gifted writer like you.

Mark, that's not an area I get into very much--other than on BB's such as this one. Maybe I should, given the current climate and push for additional gun control laws.

L.Brown, it sounds as though you are OK with Obama's backdoor approach to what amounts to a Federal Gun Registry of all guns. In 2009, the F.B.I. referred over 71,000 cases where someone who was legally prohibited from buying a firearm attempted to do so to the Justice Department. Only 77 of those cases were prosecuted. You say it's tinfoil hat talk to accuse the Obama Administration of underhandedness here, but what the hell do you call it? Your explanation about the number of cases which are plea bargained is silly. Why then, bother pushing for universal backround checks where you would have to do a transfer through an FFL even to pass a gun to your son or daughter? Are you agreeing with Obama that a new requirement like that will stop the next massacre while they are allowing over 70,000 real criminals a year to go on searching for a gun? What's the real purpose of passing new laws that will affect only the law-abiding gun-owners then?

I think it's crazy that more gun-owners aren't asking these questions. Do you think it's paranoid tinfoil-hat talk to notice that Obama did not pursue new Gun Control Laws after the shootings in Tucson or Aurora? Is it a conspiracy theory to suggest that he allowed more carnage to occur because he was more concerned with being re-elected? I'm not saying that Obama had Psy-Ops teams program and drug crazies and send them heavily armed into schools. But I'll say out loud that Obama/Holder committed numerous Federal felonies by gun-walking so-called assault rifles into Mexico to create the illusion that guns from U.S. sources were the cause of cartel violence in Mexico. Also, it's liars and liberals who say Bush went into Iraq because of 9-11. That's why we went to Afghanistan, but going into Iraq was because Saddam had been blatantly violating U.N. sanctions ever since the first gulf war.

Obama went from saying that we need to go along with the Biden Task Force proposals if it will save even one life to saying that we need to act now if only to save a few lives. Well, nearly 71,000 convicted felons, stalkers, drug abusers, etc. walked out of gun stores in 2009 while the BATF continued to compile a database of guns purchased legally by law abiding gun owners. Does anyone really think that felons who attempted to buy guns through legal sources stopped trying after the Instant Check turned them down? How many more illegal attempts occur that the F.B.I. doesn't refer to D.O.J.? I recently talked to a dealer who has a sign prominantly posted informing potential buyers that his charge for a failed backround check is $1000.00 because of all the time he wastes. He told me he used to get a lot of folks simply walking out and refusing to pay his $30.00 fee after being rejected.

If you wish to make excuses for the Obama Administration not prosecuting violations of existing laws while they advance their life long agenda to undermine our rights, go right ahead. I think that's why the framers drafted a Constitution and Bill of Rights. I'll bet those guys all wore tinfoil hats.