I don't see many threads on here about Winchester Model 21s. I have one that my Dad passed down to me. He got it from his father who inherited it from a member of the club where he was head bartender. My Dad used it to hunt back in the 60's, but it has been dormant since then.

I plan to get it checked out by a gunsmith, then hopefully harvest some hogs with it. From the serial number it appears to have been made around 1945 or 1946. It's a 12 gauge with 3" chambers, choked full/full. It has the word "Duck" stamped underneath it. It's in honest, field worn condition. The wood has some dings and dents and the fore end has a chip out of it. I want to make sure it's safe to use, then I plan to hunt with it for years and pass it on to my son.

Anyone into Model 21s? Anyone know a decent gunsmith in L.A.'s South Bay? Thanks in advance.

I've got 5, so I guess I like em. 32 in Vent rib trap, 28 in 16 ga, 28 in 20 ga, 30 in field 12 ga and a second year double trigger 12 choked cyl/mod. I've still got room in my heart for a couple more. JW

You have a Duck grade model 21. They came with either 30 or 32" barrels and are considered by many to be the finest duck/goose double gun. An exceptionally strong and well built sxs. How about some pictures?

I don't talk about mine much on here, either. However, I have a raft of them, want more, and love the ones I have. Been shooting them and buying them for 47 years and hope I have a few more years with them. I wanted them for ten years before I owned my first one.

The Winchester Model 21 was the strongest action built for a SxS and you should have no problem getting a green light from a Gunsmith to shoot it. I love the 21s myself and I owned a 1952 "Duck" Model 21 similar to yours for several years, but some think they are just a little too hefty and pricey to Love. The fact too that the 21 went from double triggers and splinter forearms only in the very early years of production to entirely built with the single trigger and beavertail forearm only to the end of production is a turn off for many. The one thing that keeps me from owning the higher engraved models is that the factory engraving was so much alike to me from one gun to another. Most guns I have seen have almost identical engraving even though Winchester would do just about anything for the customer at that time. They were not real good in the critter engraving either, in my opinion, like my Remington 1894 EEO grade has. Some of the pheasants on the 21 receiver bottom of the Grand Americans I looked at looked more like small Tyrannosaurus Rex.

21

When you get it checked out, feel the gunsmith out about running slugs through it. This could be a great time for you and your boy to try some waterfowl hunting. Most duck season openers are right around the corner.

For those who have actually seen or had a Duck model Model 21 in their hands, they know they are not particularly "hefty". Unlike the Model 12, the Model 21 in factory 3" persuasion has the same barrels that the 2 3/4" guns have and seldom go over 7 3/4 pounds. In pre 1950 3" guns, the grips are even a bit skinny, just like a normal Parker bird gun.

I have a Winchester Model 21 with 32" barrels, Brileys, aftermarket Simmons ventilated rib, single trigger, and JS AirCushion stock. It weighs 9 pounds. It is an old shot-out trap gun and I like it very much. The weight and the air cushion stock really reduce the recoil and take the punishment out of shooting a couple of hundred trap targets.

EDIT:

The gun reminds me of one of my Dad's favorite Jokes:

"I had a girlfriend whose breasts were on her back. She was funnly to look at but divine to dance with."

I've owned several Model 21's and have two currently. I used to covet them when I was young and finally took the 'plunge' at about 35 yo. They were out of my reach before that. I used to have a 20b with double triggers, splinter forearm. It had a beautiful stock but had so much drop.....more crooked than a dog's leg, I might as well have thrown rocks as shoot the thing, so I moved her down the road. They are really good guns IMHO, but I have sort of gotten away from them, now favoring lighter, English guns. Having said that, the Model 21 will always hold a special place in my heart and the two I have aren't going anywhere any time soon ( I own a Grade IV 20 b two barrel set, 28 in sk1-sk2 and the other barrel is a 30 in, 3in F-F both with matted ribs, and the other gun is a Custom grade #1 engraved, 20b, 3 in with a ventilated rib, 28 inch barrel ic-mod.....it interestingly says Custom built for Kerr's of Beverly Hills inscribed on the rib....a custom shop gun). The Model 21 is a very fine gun in my opinion.

I've had three 21s one of which was a Duck gun. Nice guns that I think are pretty nifty in a lot of ways. Unfortunately I don't shoot well with a 21. I like a lighter gun. I traded mine off pretty quickly. Different strokes for different folks.

Don't shoot slugs or steel shot though those full choked barrels, you'll ruin a damned fine gun. The Duck gun will require that you either open the chokes or find a safe steel substitute, which is not easy. There are people here more knowledge then I that can advise you. If the gun will work for you, you'll love it. There seems to be no middle ground when it comes to the 21, folks either love them or don't care for them. The 21 is a worthy subject for this forum.

Where is "Der Klunkermeister" (R.I.P.) when we need him?

Best,
Ted

I would find another gun for pigs.



I am not up to date on all these fellows but give them a call.

Try Bob Day at R&D Custom Barrels in Pico Rivera, 562-923-3608.
Jack Dockweiler is still working ? his shop is at the Redlands Trap & Skeet Club.
Pete Stepanski at Bain & Davis in San Gabriel on Valley Blvd.
Mike's Gun Smithing in Long Beach, (562) 984-2529
Bolsa Gunsmithing in Westminster

Les Pittman of Phelan CA. (760)868-2424
Address is; 7688 Joshua Street, Phelan, California 92371
Les is a former Pachmeyer gunsmith

Where did he say anything about using slugs? When I hunt hogs with a shotgun it is because I just may have to wade in amongst them. Buckshot is the proper load here. Full choke may (or may not) be a bit tight for best patterning with them, only testing can tell that, but I can guarantee there won't be any holes in the pattern a hog can get through. I don't know how they are hunted in Callyforny, but trying to use a rifle or slugs on hogs in some situations here will get you acquainted with the local emergency room tailor, quick.

It also is not a given that steel will ruin a set of full choked barrels. Granted, it is not wise to use steel in something that tight. Patterns usually suffer, and there is a greater risk of shot bridging causing damage to the choke area, but it is not guaranteed like some would have you believe.

SRH

It is also not a give that shooting a slug through a full choke bbl is going to damage it. Several slug designs took into consideration they were apt to be fired from full choke guns & were designed to be capable of passing through them without damage to the gun. Better accuracy is generally obtained through a more open choked bbl however. Also many doubles will not put a slug from the two bbls to the same point of impact, one simply has to try & see. The old Ithaca Derslayer bbls were reputed to be quite accurate with slugs (I never owned one) & they were bored undersize to a cyl bore of about the dia of a normal full choke for their entire length.

Ted: I once saw a man win over $100,000.00 shooting flyers in NC with a Model 21 Winchester. I doubt if he thought he was shooting a klunker and I certainly don't consider the one's I own as 'klunkers'! Model 21s are really great for certain apps. I guess to each his own, though.

Buzz,
I was referring to a former poster, Russ Ruppel. Russ passed away a few years back. He had his own opinion of the model 21. It was a little different than your opinion.

Best,
Ted

Thanks Ted. I wasn't trying to start a fight over the pros and cons of the 21. I think they are extremely well made guns with chopper lump barrels and very strong Winchester Proof Steel. They are a little heavy ESP in the 12 gauge. The 20's and 16's are lighter, but some of them even approach or exceed 7 lbs. 21's with ventilated ribs seem heavier than their matted rib counterparts, at least the one's I have handled. They are the only S xS that looks right with a vent rib and beaver tail forearm imo, which may be indicative of their intended and more appropriate applications??

Teds just wanting someone to ask what he thinks of a Moss'burg.

I love these guns.
Detractors will say what they will but these doubles have SOUL. Made in America, by Americans, for Americans.

Roll that beautiful bean footage...

]
-Top is a 6lb 2oz 20 bore, DT SFE ca. 1934
-below is a 6lb 10 oz Tournament 2 bbl 20 bore, 30" Full/Mod, 28" IC/WS2 ca.1934
-below is a 6lb 12 oz 20 bore "Skeet" ca. 1948
-bottom is a Custom Shop "Flatside" 12 gauge ca.1938

Those are some beautiful guns you have there, Bob! I am especially fond of your straight grip 20 bore. I have always wanted one of those. Seems like a perfect bird gun at 6 lb 2 oz.

Parker could and would build a six and one-half pound twelve gauge or a nine pound twelve gauge. Winchester would do the same with the 21.

Those of you recommending the use of steel shot and slugs through full chokes please site the ammunition company that recommends this.

The guys thinking a steady diet of buckshot loads, run through a full choke gun is good form, might be in for a surprise when they notice ring bulges.
Big shot makes big bridges. I might not worry about one in a model 12, but, I wouldn't want one or two in a double.

Best,
Ted

Here is a thread on buckshot through a full choke:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post169183

For about 30 years I've hunted wild pheasants over springers, every weekend Oct. through Dec., mostly with a 16 ga. M-21. It has 28" barrels, straight grip, splinter forearm, 15" LOP over a pad, and weighs less than 6-3/4 lbs. It's just the right weight for the 1-1/8 oz. loads I like for wild pheasants. Retirement before last season let me more than double my days in the field, and at 60 years old I'm hoping for a few more seasons. The gun has never felt heavy to me. Maybe it will if I'm still chasing spaniels at age 75 or 80.

I'd post a photo of the gun, but don't have it right now. Ray Cover is just about finished engraving the frame with a little modest scroll, pheasant and ruffed grouse on the side panels, and a portrait of my best little springer -- who went suddenly blind during her eighth hunting season -- on the trigger plate. Goes without saying that I'll never part with this gun. Ted, I remember reading Russ Ruppel's opinion of M-21s. I don't understand why some who dislike 21s get so vehement expressing their opinions. My opinion was, and still is, a little different.

Jay

The early 21s with the double trigger's wood was not always all that appealing, but the later single triggered ones had fabulous wood that though the years of polishing have developed a depth that looks three dimensional, like looking though a glass. The 1893 Colt has a similar look, rugged construction with wonderful wood. True American classics.

If you have one hang on to it and don't use it to hunt hogs. There are plenty of hog guns, but fewer and fewer unblemished 21s.

Of all the M21's, the 16 is the most appealing to me. Its proportions look "right". I hunt with two fellas who have 16 ga. M21s and their 16s hold their own in performance and looks. I'd like to have one.

I have not seen any recommendations either for or against using slugs in a full choke bbl from the ammunition companies. I am not a regular user of slugs, bought a few years ago for my wife to go on a "Diana" deer hunt on a local management area which had a shotgun only (slugs, no buckshot) restriction. She killed her deer using the left, full choked bbl of a 20ga double. It did not hurt the choke. I know a good number of locals who regularly hunted this area with full choke guns with no problems. My Father-in Law lived in Southern Illinois which allowed deer hunting with shoutgun slugs only. He regularly killed his deer with a 12ga model 58 Remington SA withth a 30" Full choke 3" Magnum bbl which he used for everything he hunted. Both of these areas currently allow use of muzzle loading rifles, but even this has not always been so. I do not know about some of the more modern slugs, but do know that both the Foster & Brenneke slugs would go through a full choke quite readily without any damage to the bbl. The solid portion of the Foster was small enough to pass through the choke, the hollow skirt would expand from the pressure, but squeeze back down in passing the choke. The Brenneke had fins which gave a fit to the bore but could also squeeze down through the choke. Millions of these types have been fired through full choke guns over the years with no problems. A solid round ball is also suitable as long as its diameter is small enough to pass through the choke. I learned all this many years ago. There are today a number of speciality slug makers & what you say may be true for some of these, but it is certainly not an across the board thing for all types of slugs.
I did not recommend Steel Shot only stated the caveat against slug use was definitely not all inclusive.

Who was it that did so?

SRH

I have seen a awful lot of big buckshot go through full chokes. This was one of the last havens of dog hunting deer in Georgia, and though it is virtually gone now for ages full choked 12 ga. guns were the overwhelming choice for deer and hogs. They may not have always patterned the best, but those old boys weren't hearing anything else. In the dozens of guns I was associated with not one ever had a ring bulge. These were everything you could imagine from single barrel hammer guns to doubles to pumps to autoloader. 90% of the loads were 00 buck. Scores of years should have caused at least one, wouldn't you think?

SRH

Look on the slug boxes they say not to use in barrels tighter then improved cylinder. Any ammo company will tell you not to use steel in full choke barrels. As far as shooting buck at pigs with a 21. It's sort of like hauling scrap iron in your Mercedes. You are not putting your Mercedes its best use.

Some my say the same thing about a muddy GSP and an M21 in the back of a BMW but it works for me.

WE can solve this quite simply. Those that believe that buckshot, slugs and steel is compatible with full chokes, use steel, 00 buck and slugs through their vintage guns with full chokes for a year and report back to us.

Okay. I shot steel for a couple years in a BSS choked full in the left barrel with no problems. Eventually opened the full to modified because the gun does not have a barrel selector, so I saw no sense in having two different chokes. Worth Matthewson writes in his book, BIG DECEMBER CANVASBACKS that he used a vintage L C Smith for many years with steel shot before carrying it to a gunsmith for an unrelated problem and finding that it was choked very full in both barrels. Gunsmith found no damage to the barrels from the steel shot.

I have shot 00 buck in full choked shotguns my whole life. Me, and probably 50 other people I could name. Every gun you could imagine. Doubles, singles, pumps, autoloaders, you name it. Not one ring bulge in 40+ years of buckshot through full chokes, sometimes extra-full.

Wouldn't you think that with all that usage there would have been some problems if it were as bad as some make it out to be? Again, I know that full doesn't always give the tightest or best patterns with buckshot or steel, but that wasn't really the issue here was it? My point is that you cannot take every recommendation the ammo and gun manufacturers make as gospel.

SRH

Pooch, slugs and buckshot are not the same. You can shoot buckshot through any choke but your patterns maybe buggered up, slugs I can´t comment on as there are so many different varieties available; as far as your idea on comparisons, I would say shooting a 21 at pigs is like shooting a pig at a pig !! best, Mike

I would say this is like admiring one's reflection in self-made pigslop!!

Jay

When choke boring became fasionable in England many years ago the proof houses began stamping the bbls "Not for Ball". W W Greener fully explained the reason for this at some point prior to 1910. The reason being it had been common practise to use balls very close to bore size for better accuracy which were too large to pass through the choke. He further explained it was quite OK to shoot solid balls as long as they were sized to pass through the choke. The British proof houses for this reason changed the marking FROM "Not for Ball" to simply "Choke". The standard for round balls loads became of a size which would pass through full chokes & was in universal use in the US for some years until the Foster Slug came on the market. As mentioned it was dimensioned to pass through any normal full choke.
Man; Millions of these have been fired over the ensuing years, there's not much a 74 yr old man could do in one year that would make much of a difference difference. Actually when one is aware of "History" there is little need to re-live it.
If you have some new-fangled slug load & the maker says Do not use in full choke guns, then I would heed the warning. I would have no qualms of using a Foster or Brenneke slug through a full choke as long as the shell was loaded to an acceptable pressure level for the gun at hand. Its been done for more years than I care to remember. Personally I prefer a good rifle & would only use a slug at all if in an area where the law required it.

Bob,

I always enjoy seeing your picture of the 21's.

I would love to find a 20 ga Mdl 21 that weighs 6# with double triggers ! ! ! !

Thanks

I don't mean to be too negative, but good luck in your quest. That will be tough.

buzz,

Your probably right it will be tough but seeing Bob has one weighing 6# 2oz with double triggers keeps the search alive.

When dealing with powder and shot,
One should follow instructions and not
get the notion,
to make ones own potion.
Cause the results can be terribly hot.

I've always thought the seldom-seen Hession model 21 foreend one of the most attractive foreends on a SXS.

When this early 21 came up for sale, it was a Cabel's offering.
I bought it knowing it would be a long time before I saw another.

I don't have Schwing's book in front of me at the moment (babysitting the Grandies), but I thought all Skeet (and Trap) grade guns had the Hessian forend

As a non-hunter I have little use for a Model 21 field gun.

But for those who will use them in the field it must be very rewarding.

No, the hession is very nice, sleek, but rare. They are out there, but not on every skeet or trap grade, for sure. I'm not very fond of the older, bulky beavertail. Many improvements were made later in these forearms.

I have a st grip Tournament grade 20 gauge with double triggers AND ejectors. Have not weighed it but bet it is over 6#.

Post a picture, I bet it's a real beauty!

David Trevallion once told me he could take a 21 and turn it into a sleek, light weight gun. One way would be to mill out the action flats like Win did with their .410 bore 21's. You could also backbore the barrels to some degree to lessen weight and take a little weight out of the forearm. Of course, this would KILL collector value, but it might be a good project for a 'shooter' to get the weight of a 20 or 16 less than 6 lbs. I would only try such a thing on a real rough specimen, a 'project' gun, but I think by customizing, one could make a lighter 21.

You know, there are a lot easier ways to come up with a 6lb double than paying a craftsman to fire up his mill and go after a model 21.

Just sayin'.


Best,
Ted

I couldn't agree more, Ted. I like 21's for what they are. I wouldn't have the gumption to take on the process either. But, I do believe it could be done, if you know what I mean.

A six pound 20 gauge Model 21 can be built without any milling of the water tables. Of course, the milled water tables are a nice touch if you have the time and expertise.

They are good guns if you can keep the barrles together. The ribs get louse if they get hot.

On two different M21's from the 1930's I many times have had the barrels so hot one couldn't touch them. The barrels are still together. Hmmmm.

The hot barrels remark is just plain silly. Barrels are chopper lump with multiple dovetails joining them.

The only dovetail joint on the M21 barrels is in the lump at the breech. The remainder of the barrels from that point forward are joined with soft solder, as are the ribs. The use of soft solder was necessary because the barrels were made of heat treated steel, and the heat of brazing them would have drawn the temper of the steel. I have often heard of M21 barrels separating, but many other guns have suffered the same problem, for whatever reason.

Tom, I thought the dovetail shown in the photo on page 62 of Schwing showed a separate dovetail forward of the lumps. I see now from the numbered locations on the patent drawings that this is the same dovetail that joins the lumps. Thanks for the correction.

Jay