Gentlemen,
I have recently purchased a Beretta side by side shotgun that is turning out to be quite different than any I have bought or seen before. There are several features that strike me as different right away. It has factory sling swivels for one thing, next it has a short piece of top rib right in front of the breech then it dives down between the barrels as a concave rib. The gun has a hidden third fastener that consists of a round rod that extends out of the breech face after the barrels are closed. Neither the barrels nor the breach are marked in the traditional way with date coded Roman numerals but the water table is stamped 1951. This gun has a frosted looking nickle finish on the action with light border engraving. Last, it has a pistol grip on it and a button release on the bottom of the forend, a nickle plated button surrounded by a thin brass frame around it.
The barrels are proof marked with 1370Kg. I am assuming that this is per square centimeter? It is a 12 gauge and it weighs 6 pounds 8.6 ounces. It either does not reset the safety when opened or someone has removed the linkage to make it do so. The barrels measure 68.5 centimeters or 26 3/4 inches. Choke markings on the barrels are 17.7 and 17.3, I'm guessing around Improved and Modified but that is just a guess. I will take some pictures of it and get them on here later. In the meantime, I would really appreciate hearing any thoughts on the markings, the model of this gun, and what the chokes are. I'm sure it was built for the European trade and it has no importers mark on it. Thanks for your help on figuring this one out. Bob

Hello
Pictures would be most helpful, please
This one??

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=283665214

If you can show a picture of the action flats, that might help
Many of the guns are stamped with model number there, Some O/U were marked S56, S57, S58 etc.

Thanks
Mike

Bob, your gun is likely one of these:
MODEL 409 PB - 12, 16, 20, or 28 ga., 27, 28, and 30 in. barrels, various chokes, double triggers, plain extractors, checkered pistol grip stock. Mfg. 1934-1964. MODEL 410 E - higher quality, auto ejector version of 409 PB. MODEL 411 E - similar to 409 PB, with false sideplates and finer finishing. Mfg. 1934-64.
All these guns are great shooters...while I've never seen unit production statistics, the early 50's seem to be very prolific based on anecdotal observations.
This site has info on italian proof marks & may be of interest to you:
http://www.bancoprova.it/index.php/en/proof-marks/italy.html

Bob,

It sounds like it was meant for the Italian market, with short basrrels and sling. It is not uncommon to find Beretta's of this period stamped with the date rather than a code. I have one a few years old that is year stamped.

You are coorect about the pressure. It should work out to be about 19,454 psi.



Pete

Bob,

1370 is the weight of the barrels in Kg (a little more than 3 lbs). Each barrel will have two markings on them to determine choke. The link to the gun above shows the an 18.3 and a 17.3 on the left barrel; these are in millimeters. When you subtract them, you get 1mm or .039 inches for the choke. I've seen other early 50s SO guns that were marked with a year vice the roman numerals.

Ken

Mike,
Yes, that is the exact gun that I bought. I will try and get a picture or two of it on here soon. It has extractors. There are no model number markings that I can see on it anywhere. Thanks for putting the auction up there with the pictures on it. That will save me a bunch of work. Unfortunately, they don't show some of the more important features. Bob

Thanks Jim for all your help and answers, this will get me a step closer to figuring out what I really have. When I bought this I didn't realise it had the sunken rib on it. I guess I got in a hurry to buy it before someone else snapped it up.
As you can see from the pictures of the auction, the stock needs to be refinished and there is one dent that I will have to lift out of the barrels. Lucky for me I have a 12 gauge dent lifter. Other than those things, it seems to be in perfect working order. The fact that the safety doesn't reset itself bothers me some. I'll have to open her up and see what's going on there. Bob

Pete,
Thanks for your help and for including the SAAMI specs. I am going to copy those and keep them for later reference. I appreciate all your help. Bob

Agree with Ken. 1370 kg would be the weight, not the pressure. I don't believe any Italian shotguns made in 1951 were proofed to such high pressure. The proof pressure would be indicated by a star in a circle (or maybe a crown--the mark changed to the former in 1950) with "PSF" underneath it. There was no mark for higher proof pressures (2 stars in circles with PSF) until 1962.

A Beretta with a swamped rib is rare in this country, maybe in Europe too. Nice little gun for $500.

Here are some additional pictures of this gun. Bob


[IMG]http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn5/birdhunter50/005-1.jpg[/IMG

Thanks Larry,
I think I am getting a little better Idea of how these are marked now and what the marks mean. It takes alot of study of figure out all the differenmt marks from different countries.
I do have "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks" by Mr. Gerhard Wirnsberger, and that helps me out alot. I do owe you guys all a debt of thanks for helping out a beginner,Thanks to everyone! Bob

Bob,

After seeing the marks, I agree that is what the barrels weighed at the time of proof.

Interesting rib!

Pete

Have you put a magnet to the receiver of your Beretta? I have not seen the third fastener on other Beretta side by sides.

Please show two pictures
1. Entire action flat
2. Chamber end of barrels and monobloc
(kinda like looking into the chambers point of view)

Thanks
Mike

Eightbore,
The action is steel and magnetic.

Bob, is there a number stamped on the underside of the forend wood? Looks like it might be a 409 from that period. And if it is, that's often stamped on the forend wood.

Anybody concerned about the flaring around the firing pin holes?

Skeettx,
I am enclosing a picture of the rear of the barrels and one of the whole action flat on the frame. Bob

Yes, I am a little concerned about the flairing around the firing pin holes but I don't know how to explain that unless they were that way from the factory, which doesn't sound logical. What do you think caused that, battering of the pins against the back surface of the breech face? That doesn't seem logical either. I am at a loss to explain that. Bob

Larry, I think you have just answered part of my questions, there is a number 408 stamped on the forend wood down in the barrel channel. I don't know why or how I missed that. I always notice this stuff on other peoples' guns but not mine.
Do you think that that number means this is a model 408? I would also like your opinion on the flairing around the firing pin holes, it is worse on the right side, of course, but both of them have it. Could this have been caused by repeatedly dry firing the gun? What should I do about it? I guess I could tap it back down with a brass hammer or something similar but that doesn't explain how they got that way in the first place .Thanks for your help. Bob

Thanks for the pictures
Shoot the gun and see if there are any issues opening the gun.
If none, leave the holes alone, if there are opening issues, the flares can be moved back a bit. Maybe dry firing caused the issue.

Really interesting the third bite !!!

Let us know when the barrel is fixed and when you shoot it. Also when you pull the stock and
see about the safety rod.
MAN!!! Aren't new old guns fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Should be a fun gun!!!

Mike

bob...I don't believe there was ever a Beretta Model 408. The absense of engraving on the receiver makes me think this is a 409. Oddly, I did google "Beretta Model 408" and found 2 other references to guys saying that 408 appears on their forend. I'm at a loss. Likewise with the third bite on this gun...however, the Greener crossbolt is pretty common.

In my opinion the flaring around the striker holes is from dry firing. If I knew for certain that the hammers are integral with the strikers I could be more certain, but that is certainly what it looks like to me.

SRH

BirdHunter,
You have a very unusual Beretta. The 408 Mdl makes more sense than 409. I have and have had 409s from 1936 to the 1960s and none have had the special feature you have on yours. The top rib, the forarm button, and the third bite are all different than those I have seen. The 408 could be a fore runner to the 409 or a prototype. In any case it is different and special. Try this person and ask what model this SxS is. marilia.santos@beretta.com...Marilia may have an answer for you. She has helped me in the past.
Best,
Ron

Bob,

Your gun IS a model 408.

Guessing, it may have been made in part to satisfy the French market as it has features common to many French guns [rib treatment, strap, reasonably light weight bbls. & overall weight]. It is a gun designed to be carried about much more than shot. Call it an Italian 'game gun', which it is.

The issue with the firing pin holes 'COULD' be from use w/ammo using 'soft' primers or with thin rims as easily as dry firing, though the latter is perhaps more probable. There is a LOT more variation in ammunition from a rim thickness perspective than gets general discussion. Skeetex has given you good advice.

BTW, your gun as I'm sure you already know is proved for standard loads, not the heavy stuff. I'd look into some of the 24 gram/ 7/8oz. or even 3/4oz. reloads using VP05 wads from Ballistic Products or the newer Clay Buster 3/4oz. wads & E3 or one of the other suitable powders for enjoying it to the fullest on clay targets and on dove or behind a dog on flushed birds. Shooting anything heavier than an ounce [28 grams] will only beat both you & the gun up if you plan to shoot it as lot, mostly YOU at that weight.

I'd hope that you get much enjoyment from using it.

Skeettx,
Thanks for your help, I'll let you guys know what I find out about this fun gun and how it shoots when I'm finished with it. Bob

jim bode,
I have never heard of a model 408 either but it is sounding more and more like that's what this is. Maybe it is a for runner of the 409. It is interesting anyway. I'll let you know when I find out for sure. Bob

Stan,
I would be willing to bet that the hammers and the firing pins are "all in one". All these Berettas are built that way, but then again, this one is different. I'll let you guys know as soon as i have a look inside it. Bob

Ron,
I too have had many 409's in the past but none were even close to this gun. It may be that this gun is a forerunner of the 409 but I just don't know. I thank you for that email address, though. I'll send off an inquiry along with some photos and see what see says it is. Bob

Tw,
You sound like you are very sure this is a model 408, can you tell me how you know that? I am very interested in finding out why this one is so different than any other Berettas I have seen in the past. Thanks alot for any info you can provide me with, I appreciate it!
Also, you don't need to worry about me shooting heavy loads in this one, I have always liked lightweight guns and respect them for what they are. This is not nearly the lightest double I have owned, I once had an 12 gauge Ithaca Flues model in 1 1/2 grade that had lightweight damascus barrels on it. It weighed just over 5 1/2 pounds. I used to shoot it with 2 1/2 inch handloads but finally sold it because of all the horror stories about damascus barrels blowing up. I wish I had it back. Bob

Unless you have a problem opening the gun after firing, I would not try to peen the holes. This is just not a problem and should not present a problem in the future if you shoot sensible shells. This is a very unusual gun, may be a prototype or low production gun. I have no idea why Beretta didn't incorporate the pin type third fastener in their side by sides instead of the Greener crossbolt. It would have saved them a fortune in production cost.

I am no expert on Berretta SxS but from my experience looking at Berrettas in Norwegian gun shops they come in far more configurations than we see over here. As to why it does not match any configurations we are used to seeing, IMO it is probably a gun brought back by someone years ago, and not a rare model necessarily.

408....409 mystery. I agree it doesn't look like any other 409, but remember that '09s were a decade+ into production when this gun was made, so that argues against it being a prototype.

RE: firing pin holes, I just had Rich Cole do some minor work on a 1939 Beretta 410, he said he filed down the firing pins to better match current production primers. But I don't know what spec he's following.

I think you buy "a lot of a shotgun" for $500 dollars, either if it is a 408 or 409 model.
I wish I could find such a bargain this side of the border.
Chokes are more like imp mod (0.027") and full (0.039")and 1,350 is the barrels weight in GRAMS (not Kg) Europeans use the comma (,) for decimal point (.)
I am also pretty sure that the firing pins are integral (same piece) with the hammers in this shotgun.
The "untouched" screws talks fine about what is inside (a clean mechanism!).

Enjoy!

Best,

OK, let me confuse things even more. I have a 1956 Italian catalog from Beretta. They show several variations for the 409. There is the 409, 409 L, 409 PB and the 409 BIS. The picture of the 409 BIS has that same rib. It specifically states that the right trigger is articulated. It also talks about a triple lock up. But they had that on many of their guns.

I can not find the 408 in any of my catalogs or references, though I have no doubt that the model existed. The problem with Beretta is that they often marketed the same gun in different countries and changed the designation from country to country. I do see 408's show up on Italian auction sites. It also has that same rib. Go figure.

A 409 BIS
http://si.armiusate.it/catalogo/233/Fuci...2-2-2-STEL.html


A 408
http://www.armerialabeccaccia.it/dett_art.php?id=256



Pete

Bob,

The way I'm positive its a 408 is that you have told us it is so marked under the forearm. That is how Beretta marked their '4' series SxS guns; all, to the best of my knowledge. I've seen another 408 [years ago, now], like yours and so marked. I've also seen that model depicted in two dif Italian books on Beretta, one brought back by a friend in the 70's that is no longer available for me to ask if he still has it and the other my friend, Billy Hodge, who has a book given to him by one of the Beretta family that shows many variants of the guns they have made in the last century or so. I spoke w/Billy yesterday and he is going to see if he can find any refs to that model and call me back. I'm not positive that's the other book I saw it ref'd in, but I believe that it may have been. Billy didn't recall that particular variant, but said essentially the same thing that W. Burns & Pete have; Beretta made a LOT of configurations not exported here. Your 408 may have been called by another name when it was being marketed, but that is the model number.

The swamped rib and short stub extension is typical of French shotguns, but I don't know where the practice actually originated.

As an aside, on many of the older Garcia BL series Beretta's they carry their European model numbers stamped on the bbl's underside, i.e., S56E on a BL-4 or similar markings. The BL was an America only designation, as far as I know. Initially, they bore marketing names like 'Silver Snipe' & 'Golden Snipe', the only two box lock O/U models initially sold here before the 'BL' designations. Some of those 'BL's, like the BL-2S came and went rather quickly w/little fanfare, even though they are great L/W field guns w/their minimalist features & 'Speed Trigger'. The 408 may have suffered a similar short life in foreign markets removed from here.

And while on the subject, I can't speak to the 'GR' series guns carrying a European designation stamped in their forearms, I simply do not recall. Perhaps someone here has one they can take a quick look at and post their findings. I know it's not directly related, but still germane to Beretta's past BL double gun practices.

kind regards, tw

Here is what I have on the GR series.







The following are all GR2.









Pete

I know only one thing about this gun. If Beretta would market this gun with the pin style third fastener, swamped rib, in .410 and 28 gauge, with choice of 28" and 30" barrels, no engraving, choice of pistol grip or straight, they would have to stop production of their other guns go satisfy the orders for this gun.

Bill,

I agree! I also know that while all the literature I have seen only mentions 12ga, I have seen 10ga guns (408 / 409) show up on auctions.

Pete

To all you great guys who have offered help on this gun, Thanks! I took Ron Overberg's advice and sent an email to Marilia Santos at Beretta. I sent her as complete a discription as I could and included some pictures of my gun. I don't know if this officially puts and end to this discussion but it is from someone who really knows these things and she works for Beretta. It does leave room for some more dicussion, though. For instance, my gun does not have the articulated trigger on it. I'm not sure what she was referring to about the safety. I asked her to explain the meaning of "an extractor of extensive developement". I have sent her my best response and asked a couple more questions of her. So far, I have not received any more emails from her. I have included her letter below just as she sent it to me.
Bob

"Dear Mr. Hynden,
The Security Division has informed that the shotgun is a side by side model 409 bis. It has been produced on July 1951 and sold in Italy on August 1951.

This is a shotgun with two barrels hammerless - Monobloc - Beretta special triple locking - trigger Anson Deeley - light elegant engraving - receiver and barrel in Alloy Chromium eletric Steel - Special type Ausonia - rib type St. Etienne - safety on bottom - good class wooden.

Note: the Beretta special triple locking "Patented" is with a longitudinally slide pin controlled by a lever; the system, called "top lever", works at the top of the receiver and it is particularly effective against the solicitations of rotation imparted to the barrel by explosive charge. This locking system allows the application of an extractor of extensive development.

I hope it can help you.

Best regards

MARILIA SANTOS "
Customer Service Firearms & Beretta Sport Division
Fabbrica d'Armi PIETRO BERETTA S.p.A.
Via Artigiani, 1
25063 Gardone Val Trompia, Brescia - ITALY
Tel. +39 030 8341.369 - Fax. +39 030 8341.421

Dear Mr. Hynden,
The Security Division has informed that the shotgun is a side by side model 409 bis. It has been produced on July 1951 and sold in Italy on August 1951.

That is a great response. They obviously have a factory record for this one. It appears that the features of the 409 BIS changed over time.

rib type St. Etienne Well, now we know how to refer to it.

Pete

so much of documented Beretta history deals with pistols and over/unders, it would be great if we could entice one of the gun writers to more thoroughly document Beretta's history in side-by-sides. just a thought, Jim

Jim,
I agree with you, it seems like it should be past time for someone associated with Beretta to do a book on Beretta side by side shotguns. I got the small dent in the right barrel fixed but I have run into a problem with the action on this gun. Like so many of these Berettas, this one has a front acess plate screw that is stuck tight. It has been in the gun since 1951 and is really bound up. Beretta has always used very thin slots in their screws, I suppose to keep people from messing with them. It didn't work in the first place because I have seen numerous screws with messed up slots in them. All it really does is look neat and keep the screws from ever being removed!

I have so far tried two different penetrating oils. I put heat on it in the form of a large heated soldering iron thinking that by warming it up that the oil would get in there better and work. I used a specificly ground driver bit with a small ratchet in conjunction with the driver handle, it didn't budge. I tried a special oil that is supposed to partially freeze the screw and allow the oil to penetrate, No Luck!
I don't know what to try next. I am down to just spraying some oil on it every morning in the hope that it will finally let go. Any of you guys have any ideas or special tricks to get these screws out. It has to come out so I can remove the stock and check out the safety. Thanks for your help. Bob

Pete, although that's probably as good a name as any for us to use--because it's seen far more often on French guns than those from any other country (very often on Darnes and Manufrance guns, both Robusts and Ideals), the French don't call it that. (Much as they don't use "French" in front of "fries" either. Some Gallic modesty, perhaps?) They refer to it as "plume"--literally, feather. I suppose we might call it a featherweight rib, but because of the connection of that rib design to French guns, St Etienne is at least as good a choice--and the Italians seem to like it.

Larry,
I would cast my vote for featherweight as a name for this rib as it's primary function is to reduce the weight of the gun. If that's not satisfactory, I would then suggest that we call it a plume rib, at least it sounds neat! Bob

I have an update for all you guys who helped me figure this out. I have decided that even though Marilia called it a 409Bis, I think maybe this is a 408. Because it is stamped 408 inside the forearm wood with the same stamps as the serial number of the gun found in the same place. She alludes to it being made for and sold in Italy. Since it differs so much from other Beretta 409's, I don't think it is a 409.
I sucessfully raised the small dent in the barrels and finally got the screws loose to have a look inside the works. Thanks to the makers of Kroil, (soak it and let it have time to work.) It has no safety resetting bar linkage, and never did. The normal way these are put together is to use a pull bolt screwed into a spreader block, for lack of a better word. The block fits into grooves on the inside of the upper and lower tangs, being held in place with two machine screws. This gun does not have a pull bolt, no block, and no safety resetting mechanism. It has upper and lower machine screws that screw into the action. Because of the sling swivels and the light weight, I would say that to call it an Italian game gun would be just right. I have cleaned and fixed it and have put it on Gunbroker.com for sale. The auction number is 294333986 and it is listed as a Rare model 408. As far as I am concerned, that is what it is. I thank you all for your help. Bob

The model I believe is a 408, a short lived model for European market. The tip off is the 3rd fastener that is a longitudinal rod into breach face. Bob

Sorry, I meant to add this site http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=294333986 Bob

Bob,
Thank you for adding the auction for4 me,I should have done that to begin with. Bob H.

I have a similar gun made for the British market I think. It has the same number 408 stamped inside the forend wood, the same hidden 3rd fastener, swamped top rib etc but it has a straight hand stock and no sling swivels. The straight hand stock and the absence of sling swivels which are rarely, if ever, seen on a British gun would indicate to me the gun was made especialy for the British market.This gun is also fitted with a non automatic safety.
Bob

It's a shame to sell it, now that you've gotten so familiar with the gun...it's almost family now.

I do not know if you are an FFL. If so, my apologies.

If not, be careful with the buying,fixing,selling of guns for a profit and posting about it on the internet.

Mike, Thanks for the advice, but the last I knew I was still living in the U.S.A., and I am still allowed to buy and sell up to six guns a year without having a dealers license. If I buy a gun for my own use and fix the things up that are wrong with it, and I later decide to sell it because I find that I don't need it, or I want something else more, then I am still allowed to sell the gun for whatever it brings. Bob

Bob,
Just out of curiosity, what are the chokes in your gun. I was amazed that this gun of mine has modified and full chokes. If I do keep it I think I'll have to ream it out to improved and light modified for dove hunting. Bob

My gun is choked half and full.
Backworth Bob
(too many Bob's on this topic)

If you open those chokes, I'd suggest keeping the top barrel as-is, open the bottom. I've migrated over the last 10 years or so to a relatively open choke on most of my bird guns, with a much tighter second choke. When I first tried this arrangement, I thought I might wish for the more open second barrel. I can't remember wishing for a more open second barrel, and have frequently been very glad for the extra reach/pattern density on the second shot. It would be cheaper too, and if you find you don't like it, easy to open later.

Hello everyone!
Bob, if you like, I can send a page of the catalog Beretta 1956 with your gun. I'm a fan of Beretta 30s-40s-50s.
Giovanni