I have a few OT questions I’m hoping some of the rifle people that post here can answer. I recently acquired several rifles:
1. a friend gave me an old Mossberg .22 made for Wards,
2. on the advice of an internet acquaintance, I purchased a Mosin Nagant Russian military rifle, and
3. my great granddads 1863 Springfield musket.
What all these three guns share in common is a 13” LOP. I’m 6’5” and my shotguns use a 15.5” LOP. Since rifles are aimed and not “pointed” Does LOP make that much of a difference with a rifle? Other than shooting on the rifle team my freshman year in high school and shooting squirrels and blackbirds as a kid, I’m not really knowledgeable of rifle nitty-gritty such as proper fit (maybe I should ask to see the generic dimensions on a Remington 700 at the local Cabela’s). Could any of you rifle guys help me out here.

Just for you I measured my 700 Remington 7mm Mag. LOP is 13 5/16". One of my buddies is 6'5" and it's too short for him so I guess you and him are in the same boat. I'm 5'9" and I like a 13 7/8 to 14" LOP for my shotguns depending on how much clothing I'm wearing.

Rifle fit relates to positioning your eye behind your sights in a relaxed unstrained position. And the stock has to be long enough to keep the rear sight out of your nose or the scope's ocular ring off your forehead during recoil in my opinion. Length of pull isn't too critical if the comb is high enough to get you behind the sights without having an unsupported head or having to dig hard with your cheek to line up. Position is also related to stock fit, which is why you see target shooters with stocks adjustable in just about all directions. Prone requires a completely different fit compared to off hand. Also related is how heavy a cartridge you are firing. Might want a little more length with a big nitro vs a .22 because you will probably fire the later more across your body which would be dangerous with heavy recoiling gun. If you are really long in the neck and shoulder width a little more length is reasonable. For a general purpose hunting or plinking rifle a fit much like a shotgun would be fine so long as it is fit to the sight line which is a bit higher than most shotgun ribs and if you are not a real stock crawler.

Good questions. I hadn't considered it. We don't go on with fit about rifles as we do with shotguns. I wonder why.

Steve,
My scoped rifles that are comfortable to me run about 3/4" shorter LOP than a single trigger shotgun that fits me.

Rockdoc: I prefer to have a scope as close to the barrel as possible and that way it aligns closer to the eye for a quick shot like that which would be made on running game. It has to be comfortable and easy just like in shotgunning to make a quick shot. Target shooting is another matter IMO. I also shoot a scoped rifle with both eyes open just like a shotgun. Just my personal opinion though. Buzz

I found these tips very practical for a scoped rifle.

JC

I want ALL my guns to perfectly fit me. You won't believe how much it will do for your field performance.

FWIW, Jack O'Connor once wrote that most people shoot a shotgun that's too short and a rifle that's too long (LOP). Seems he was in the camp of short pulls on rifles as well.

I don't obsess over LOP on rifles, unless it is a dedicated offhand iron sighted rifle, as much as I do shotguns. Shotguns are mounted and shot without aiming, so the fit must be closer to perfect than with a rifle. I shot competitive offhand for many years and was very particular about the fit on those rifles, but I can position a scope to give me proper eye relief with rather broad range of LOPs on rifles. Over the counter stuff usually works great for me, even though I prefer a 14 3/4"-15 1/4" pull on shotguns.

SRH

So long as you have the sights lined up, it doesn't matter how the stock fits. Russian rifles are short because they wear a lot of clothes over there.

All you need is for your face to be far enough from the sight that you can line them up. With a scope, which you can't put on a M/N without a lot of expense, you need for it to be within the sight focus distance, which is from 2-4" to keep the scope from biting you.

My take is that more people shoot shotguns that are too long rather than too short. Of course, trap shooters will say theres no such thing as too long

And trap shooters are goofs of the first water as has been documented jillions of time. Mr. Yardley says that a shotgun stock should be just barely long enough that the thumb doesn't get jammed up the nose. My own experiments w/ a mucho adjusto stock give him high marks. His other criteria is that the trigger hand elbow should make a 90degree or less angle when the gun is mounted. Casual observation on my own again gives it to Mr. Y's instruction.

Course that's all just for shotguns. Rifles you on your own.

HTH

Dr.WtS

I agree Chuck. I just had almost one inch chopped off my to go gun. I got tired of over extending the thing for an unexpected flush of birds. It is now an even 14". Years ago my Dad told me to get a rough idea for LOP I should hold my arm at a right angle, put the butt plate in the crook of my arm, and my trigger finger pad should be in the right spot on the front trigger. Maybe it was Dad's way of keeping me from his 10 bore Remington. I know it seemed like forever before I got to use the thing.

I want to thank everyone for their input. I finally got the cosmoline all cleaned out of the Mosin Nagant and I cleaned out the barrels of both the N/S and the little Mossberg 22 my friend gave me. Then it was off to the range for the first serious rifle shooting in perhaps 40 years. My, how the years have changed things. While a freshman in military school, I shot on the rifle team and was a damn good shot. With the 12/20 vision I had then it was easy to focus on both sights and the target literally at the same time, not anymore… With my present 30/20 vision and age hardened optics (Presbyopia), focusing on both the sights and target was impossible. I guess I’ll be investing in a scope. Shooting the M/N at a 100 yard target at 25 and then 50 yards, I did manage to keep my shots within the 8 ring, but that was about it. This aging business sure does suck! The little Mossberg .22 was accurate enough, but the comb was way too high making it really tough to line up the sights at all, much less comfortably shoot it.
Thanks again to all who posted. I won’t concern myself with LOP in my rifles, I’ll just work on adjusting the comb for more comfortable shooting and maybe mount scopes on the rifles to accommodate my deteriorating eye sight.
Steve

When it comes to scopes, just be aware that aging-related farsightedness and, moreover, wearing corrective eyeglasses, may well play havoc with using a scope. This, because the image you're looking at in the scope is only a couple inches from your eye. Focusing slowed by age will make it even worse.

I've been having a heck of a time seeing the image in a scope while wearing my glasses, which I need for anything more than arms-length away. Helpng a friend sight in his rifle earlier this fall, I had to ditch my eyeglasses to see the target through the scope, which would have been impossible in a hunting situation. I've always tried to shoot with both eyes open, especially because I don't want to create bad habits for shotgunning, and that gets awkward with one eye on the scope (seeing a very clear image) and one looking downrange (seeing mud). I'm actually considering ditching the scope and going to a ghost ring sight for my rifles. Most shots here in Maine are under 100 yards, so I don't think I'll be losing out going that route. The other alternative would be going to a scout-style setup, but that means drilling new holes, something I'd rather avoid.

A 14" pull is not short, except for a very tall man. I favor slightly shorter pulls on field guns as opposed to sporting comp guns which I premount. I can shoot a 14 3/4" pull field gun very well, in a shirt only, and I am 6'2" with a 34" sleeve. As temps drop, and the bulk of clothing increases, pull must needs be less. A shooter of average build and under 6' should be able to shoot a 14" pull gun pretty good in the field, if all the other dimensions are decent.

SRH

I'm 5'9" and using my Dad's idea, a 14" LOP is just right. Maybe my arms are too long for my height.

A high quality CQB (Close Quarters Battle) style 1-4x scope, like a Nightforce Compact NXS 1-4, set on 1 power, may be the optimum sight for reasonably close range shooting. It can be shoot both eyes open, just like a shotgun, quickly and accurately. There should be no problem in using the scope with eye glasses on as long as it is adjusted properly.

vangulil,
The Nightforce scope looks perfect, unfortunately I'm one of these people known to the world as frugal (though my late wife preferred the word "cheap" to describe me). I'd have a problem spending $1200 for one of those bad boys. I guess my own God-given optics will have to do for at least a few more years.
Steve
PS I prefer the word frugal because whereas I won't necessarily pay extra for a name, I will pay extra for quality.

Rockdoc. I'm wondering if you might be a little mixed up on this frugality issue. For me, with an luxury the sky is the limit but with necessity items I'm CHEAP!!

Dave, I don't use my eyeglasses when using a scope. I adjust the rear ocular to compensate for my farsightedness until the image in the scope is in focus.
The problem is that when walking around while hunting I do have to wear them to be able to see properly and have to take them off before aiming and shooting.
Having only one pair and worrying about loosing them does not help in the concentration department, ;-)

JC

It isn't "Frugal" and it definitely isn't "cheap". You're a "value purchaser".

Jaycee


That's exactly my problem, and I'm unwilling to ditch the glasses for fear of overlooking something downrange which I should see. That's why I'm considering going back to iron.

Anyway, $1200 is several times what my rifles (1976 Remmie M788 LH in .308, 1955 Marlin 39A) are worth....

I have shot quite a lot of Rifle competition, most of it off hand in Rifle Silhouette. My shotgun fit is generally about 14 1/4 for single triggerguns, but my rifle LOP is about 13 1/2. I think that is a good general rule.

I thought maybe I'd go back to iron sights for deer this year. A sight picture on an iron sight does not look the same at 63 as it did when I was qualifying in the Army or for that matter the same as when I was learning to shoot squirrels with a single shot .22 as a kid. If I focus on the rear sight, I can't see the target and if I focus on the target I can't see the sight. I'll just stick to a scope...Geo

OK, Free advice is worth what you pay for it. I have considerable experience as a rifle shooter I retired from High Power as a High Master and a Distinguished Rifleman.

Might I suggest the following:

Rifles generally have shorter stocks because a shorter stock works better for standing, aitting, and prone positions since a rifleman stands more beside the gun than behind it and sitting and prone lean the shooters head over the gun.

Competitive shooters use adjustable stocks to adjust for the different positions. Having said that, I spent most of my shooting career with a non adjustable M14. With this type of rifle, the shooter adapts his position to the gun. My nose always touched my thumb shooting M14s and this is desirable and known as a spot weld. It assures consistent gun mount and better recoil managment in rapid fire.

Most rifles have the ability to mount the scope so you control the eye relief with the scope mount. When you mount the scope, take into consideration the position you'll shoot in and your comfortable stance. Make sure rifles with a lot of recoil are at maximum eye relief for obvious reasons.

Scopes are almost always a benefit in hunting because accurate shooting requires focus on the front sight. If the target doesn't contrast the background, Proper focus on the front sight causes the target to dissppear. You can always adusst the scope to compensate for your glasses and should use the scope with your glasses on.

If you are older and having trouble seeing iron sights, have your eye doctor make you a set of glasses with +.50 or +.75 on your shooting eye. This allows older shooters to see the front sight without preventing them from reading the number board at least to 600 yards. I can still read the board at 1,000 yards with this arrangement.

You don't have to pay the price of a nice used car for an excellent 1-4 scope like the one mentioned. Nikon makes a great 1-4 scope that sells for about $350 with target turrets, the M.223 1-4. It also can be furnished with SPOT ON turrets that are custom marked for your caliber/bullet weight/velocity to compensate for drop out to as much as 1,000 yards. A great scope at a very reasonable price.

It is impossible to shoot very well with iron sights if you focus on the rear sight, Geo. Same if you try focusing intently on the target. What has to happen, with notch and post or with aperture sights, is that you focus on the front sight. The target and the rear sight must be out of focus, as it is impossible for one set of eyes to focus clearly at three distances at the same time. Now, that is all fine and good if you are young and your eyes have the ability to shift focus quickly from target to front to rear, back to front, etc. When you can do this you check sight alignment a couple times and check front sight hold on the target, then focus on the front sight as you squeeze the trigger and break the shot.

As our eyes age we lose the ability to focus clearly at all three distances to check everything before settling on the front sight and firing. Peep sights help this problem by eliminating the alignment issue between the front and rear sights. Your eye naturally keeps the front sight centered in the rear aperture. To TRY to keep it centered is self defeating. It will do it itself. Rear apertures with a large "ghost ring" are very nearly as accurate as tiny apertures because of this reason. In low light conditions they are MORE accurate.

Sounds like some good advice from Dick on having the special right lens prescription shooting glasses made. I may give that a try. I gave up offhand iron sight competition when I lost the fine edge on my eyesight at about age 50.

SRH

Stan, I probably mis-spoke about what I was focusing on. All I know is I can't shoot regular iron sights anymore. Maybe an aperture sight would work...Geo

p.s.: I gotta find some kind of sight for my .43 Mauser cape gun; I can't aim with the folding leaf sights and it would look stupid with a scope.

Can you adjust a peep site? Who makes one that'll fit on cape gun rib?...Geo

George,
A quality peep sight is adjustable in both windage and elevation. I had a custom made one by Vern Juenke of Reno NV that could be taken off and replaced on the weapon without losing zero.
Gil

Dick and Stan: I'm one of the (relatively few) people who does not feel bound to value (and heed, as appropriate) advice in direct proportion to what I paid for it.

You gave some excellent advice, which I will keep in mind.

Thanks!

Is a longer LOP considered appropriate for heavy recoiling rifles?

Geo,

There are all kinds of ways to mount peep sights. I have mounted Redfield 75s, Marble Goss, and Lymans to the top of m/l barrels using a sight bar that screwed to the top of the barrel flat and extended back to the proper distance from the eye over the wrist. But, I don't know if you are looking for a period sight or just something useful that may not necessarily look "right". A good gunsmith can help you with this. Y'all may have to use your imagination in mounting it, but it CAN be done.

NECG (New England Custom Gunsmiths) makes some of the nicest and best made hunting peep sights I have seen. Also have the big moon bead for the front to go with it. Brownell's carries them. They are adjustable, too.

www.newenglandcustomgun.com

SRH

Ryan,

Again, I'm more concerned with plenty of eye relief than long LOP. If the eye relief is enough on the scope, or peeps are used, long LOP isn't necessary.

What do you call heavy? .375 H & H - .416 Rigby class, or .500 NE and up? I don't really have any first hand experience with rifle recoil over that generated by something like a 300 grain bullet at around 2600 fps in a Ruger No. 1, and that is tame by some standards.

Kickingest thing I ever shot was Mossberg synthetic 3 1/2" pump gun with a max turkey load. Once.

SRH

Stan,

Maybe heavy isn’t the right terminology. The rifle in question is a .338 Remington ultra mag. I guess I’m a wimp for complaining but, I think it kicks too damn hard. Possibly better ergonomics would help tame it.

Stan, I appreciate your insight on what my gunsight problem is. A ghost-ring type peep sight may be just what I'm looking for. I checked out the peeps at NECG but can't quite see how any of them would fit on a sxs rib. I have a pretty inventive local gunsmith who might be able to figure something out. His suggestion last I spoke to him about it was a pickitinney (sp?) rail and a hologragh sight. Somehow I just can't see that on an old Sauer capegun. As Muderlak used to say: investigation continues...Geo

RyanF, While some of the heavy calibers have more recoil they are usually built into a heavier rifle to slow it down. However I hated shooting some of the .300mag and .338 stuff because the guns weren't weighted to tame them and they delivered the blow with higher velocity. I agree with you they do hurt. But nobody seems to want to carry a 12 to 14lb gun to soften the blow.

George,
Check this out http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=27447/Product/IMPROVED-PEEP-TANG-SIGHT there are many other options, simply google peep sight.
Steve

Thanks Steve, never thought of a tang mounted arrangement. I'll look into it...Geo

Tang's too skinny for any of the Marble's tang mounted peeps, but the folding leaf sights on my Sauer are 3/8th" tap-in dovetailed mounted in the rib and Brownell's had the Marble's tap-in adj. peep on a 3/8th" dovetail, so I've ordered it. We'll see...Geo

That's Pitcatinny, as in the US arsenal there, in NW New Jersey.

Though it seems you've passed on the tang sight, the advantage it has (besides working) is that it has a classic look. A heck of a lot more consonant with a cape gun than a rail and holo sight.

George, You are gonna love the way Elmer Keith fastened Gibbs sights to his double rifle to determine fast target acquistion on moving targets (thrown rocks). He obviously didn't shoot with them rigged the way he described his testing.
http://www.calpappas.com/id79.html

Gil

Keith was great. I liked the part where he blew a hole in the porch roof. If you read Shotguns By Keith, he did the same thing with one of his shotguns. IIRC it was his Ithaca Magnum 10. That poor porch! Thanks for sharing.

Thanks Dave, I knew what it was, just no idea how to spell it. I decided on a Marbles rib mounted peep-site...Geo

Geo.,

I will try to take some pictures, when I get a chance, of a wrist mounted Swiss style peep sight I mounted on a roundball rifle years ago. I didn't want to just screw the thing to the wrist, so I inletted a plate into the wrist, with tapped holes to accept the mounting screws for the sight base. I inletted it deeply enough so that I could remove the sight, and put in it's place a polished brass shield. Looks much like a shield one would have initials engraved on, just that it's on the wrist and not under the stock belly.

The inletted base provides a very secure mounting platform for the sight, and the shield looks nice with the sight off in order to use the barrel mounted open sights.

SRH

Just an update to this thread. I took my new Mosin Nagant (M/N) out to the range and discovered that my eyesight had really deteriorated over the last 50 years. After some research and a visit to Cabela’s where I found an M/N fitted with a “scout” scope I decided to emulate what they’d done. A good and a bad idea, bad because they’d completely removed the rear sight, I ended up removing mine in pieces learning along the way that the sight had been pinned, set-screwed and soldered into place, a good idea because it was exactly what I wanted. I went ahead and purchased the same sight I’d found on the gun in Cabela’s, an NcStar 2.5X30E scope with mounting rings. The only trouble was the ring clamps were set far too wide for the 0.5” required for the dovetail slots left behind from the original sights. The only mounts I found that fit were for an air-rifle, but other than a cheap stamped steel locking piece, they fit perfectly. I figured for $6.99 I’d give them a try, after 6 shots the scope nearly fell off the gun, back to the drawing board. I then compared the mounts that came with the scope too the air-rifle mounts and realized that I could switch out stamped steel locking pieces with the heavy duty locking pieces from the original mount. Two different manufactures, yet the pieces were interchangeable, who’d have thunk it! I did have to replace the knurled locking bolts with longer allen bolts but that was no problem.



Here’s a picture of the finished scope mount setup that held tight today after 14 rounds.



About the target photo. Bingo marks where I finally got the rifle sighted in at 50 yards, the shots numbered 1, 2, 3 and 4 were taken after I sighted it in. There are a few shots on the paper taken at 100 yards but I’m not certain which ones (I’m new at this, next time I’ll bring a marker with me).

Steve

It is hard to stop progress.

Scope eye relief is the main problem with my LOP. Also here in Canada we have to wear heavy clothing in the November hunting season.
So I cut my favourite deer rifle stock to 13 1/4" including rubber recoil pad so as to be able to use a Leupold 2-7x33 compact scope, while wearing a heavy jacket. Not much eye relief in those little scopes and I could not use it until I cut 3/4" off the stock.
My 2c,
Mike