I picked up a Philadelphia Arms Co gun over the weekend. It says fox on the reciever ser#1199. any body know anything about these guns. My fox book says only 12 known at the printing of the book. It has 2 sets of barrels number matching and 2 forarms matching numbers for all. Is this a rare gun does it have any value barrels are 30 inch full these also have a rear site and 28 mod. pretty nice looking gun has a lot of drop in the stock. Any help wold be great on value how rare??

You ought to post on the Fox site---there will be a lot of interest from those guys. foxcollectors.com

Reddhott, I believe the story is that the Philadelphia action bodies were used to make the first Sterlingworth Pin-guns in 1910 and 1911. I've never seen an actual Philadelphis gun, but I did see a Baltimore Arms gun (another, prior Ansley Fox endeavor) at a local gunshow a few weeks ago. I started to buy it for the Fox interest, but it was in too bad shape to do anything with...Geo

That's what I always thought, too. But I've been informed that the Philadelphia Arms frame is actually longer than the sculpted hinge pin Foxes.

Per the Fox collectors website, approximately 2,000 Philadelphia Arms Co. guns were produced. A far cry from 12.

I have one myself, I wish there were only 12 made.

It should say Philadelphia Arms Co. on the rib. If it says Philadelphia Gun Co. on the gun it is a cheap "trade brand" gun hawked at one time by, I think, E.K. Tryon.

See The Double Gun Journal, Volume Thirteen, Issue 4, and check this out --

http://www.foxcollectors.com/ah_fox/content/philadelphia_arms.html

How about some pictures of the gun? Grade? Barrel lengths? Grip style? I don't have 1199 on my list of observed specimens. My list is a lot longer now than when Mike wrote his book!!

Of every wrong thing he wrote in the book, that bit about early Sterlingworths possibly being made from Philadelphia Arms Co. frames is the worst.

Yup, that's where I got it. I appreciate the correction; nice to learn something, even if it is that what you'd learned before was wrong...Geo

Researcher, how many are on your list now and what is the serial range? I know my #197 is on your list. I gave to you in May of last year on the Fox sight.

If it is not too much trouble it would be interesting to know how much the list has grown in the last 9 months or so.

I have one in maybe 80% condition with good colors. Only real problem is a crushed butt pad, which may be original. 12ga, 30" Kruppp barrels as I recall.

George,

Another thing is that it is a shame that Mike wasted the better part of a chapter in the book on Baltimore Arms Co. He should have covered the Fox Gun Co., Balto., Md. U.S.A.,



and ended the chapter with -- In January 1900, Ansley left to be a professional shooter for Winchester, his former partners reincorporated in West Virginia, as Baltimore Arms Co. with their principal place of business Baltimore, Maryland, and proceeded to build a gun of Frank A. Hollenbeck's design.

Ansley was neither an officer or director of Baltimore Arms Co. Whether he got any stock in BAC when all the assets of the Fox Gun Co. were transfered to BAC, or if he was bought or forced out I have not been able to determin.

For the first about two and one half years that Baltimore Arms Co. was in existance, Ansley was on the road as a professional shooter for Winchester, and during that time he moved his household to Philadelphia. By November 1902, he is busy incorporating Philadelphia Arms Co. and raising capital for that venture.

The only connection of Ansley Fox to Baltimore Arms Co. that I have found was in late 1904 when he bought a great deal of the machinery and fixtures of Baltimore Arms Co. at their receiver's sale. I believe that is the equipment he used when he left Philadelphia Arms Co. in December 1904, and set up A.H. Fox Gun Co. in early 1905.

My table of observed Philadelphia Arms Co. guns now contains 56 entries with serial numbers ranging from 59 to 1845. One E-Grade (but I know there is another, just don't have the serial number), one D-Grade, three C-Grades, five B-Grades, and all the rest A-Grades. All 12-gauge, all with extractors, and all with Krupp barrels. The Philadelphia Arms Co. 1905 catalogue mentions the option of Damascus barrels on the C- and higher grades, but I've never seen a Damascus barrel PAC gun.

Dave

romac
I said that my fox book said there were only twelve accounted for . the book also says that as many as 5000 might have been made. sorry for the confusion

OK I took some pictures of the gun and tried for 15 min to figure out how to post them. If some one has instructions or will help post them I will. I can attack them to an email if someone wants to post them for me
thanks for your info so far but no one has put a value on this gun???

Thanks, Dave. Looks like I managed to make a post on this thread where everything I said was wrong. At least I didn't buy that broke down Baltimore Arms gun I saw at the show!

I can only plead what I read. By the way Dave, I thought you were the one who did the research for McIntosh's Fox book???...Geo

Try this:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=148935#Post148935

Let me know if that doesn't work.

Best,

Mike

Mike
Thanks for the help but I couldn't make heads or tails of photobucket it just sits there and spins no luck for me someone wants pictures give me an email and I will send them I quit on the photo bucket end!!!!

Ivory Beads just sold one, for something less than $1395, with a bolt through the head of the stock.

http://www.ivorybeads.com/site/default.asp?Page=54&FSL3_SL_5=Philadelphia+Arms+Co%2E&FSL3_RUNSEARCH=TRUE&FSID3=2264

Yes I did quite a bit, but there has been twenty-one years more research since that manuscript went to the publishers. The only chapter of the book Mike sent me for review was the chapter on Ansley's trap shooting career. When the book was due for a second printing I sent Mike six pages of errata, but all the publishers did was add the chapter on CSMC.

Mike
With the help of my wife I got some pictures of the gun posted. the last picture shows the rear site. If anybody needs a picture of something let me know I will try to post it. I sure need the practice. In my book it says that the grade is on the bottom of the barrel but the only thing I can see on one barrel is what looks like an X.
Let me know what you guys think

Certainly looks to be in the better half of the Philadelphia Arms Co. guns I've seen. Appears to be an A-Grade. Those checkered stock cheeks were not "standard" on the A-Grade, and we often suspect those of covering the repair of a split to the head of the stock.

Is there a seperate forearm for the second set of barrels? How are the barrels numbered? Is there a 2 under the serial number on the second set of barrels? On the forearm?

In A.H. Fox Gun Co. guns if a gun was built from the get go as a two-barrel set, there would be a 1 under the serial number on the primary barrels and forearm and a 2 on the secondary set. If a gun went back to the factory for a second set of barrels, the new barrels and forearm would have the 2, but the original set won't have a 1.

I looked the wood over pretty close and could not find any signs of repair. I took the screw out of the trigger guard and the stock is number 1199 the 30 inch barrels are marked 1199 as is the fore arm the 28 barrels are numbered 1199 with an X as is the fore arm 1199 with an X. The gun is tight the bores are bright and clean there are no dents in either set of barrels. It seems to fire with snap caps and funtion fine. I really can't find anything wrong with it except the recoil pad is dry and crushed a bit. Any idea of what kind of price I should put on it or just run it on GB and see what it brings. The fellow I got it from said he bought it at a local gun shop in the 50's and it came with both barrels.

My 2 cents is put it on Gunbroker starting at 1 penney and provide a boat load of pictures as well as all the appropriate measurements, such as barrel wall thickness, chokes, bore diameter, etc etc. If all that info is good, it will sell at a pretty good price. However, if it have problems then not so much.