Have an urge to buy a used British game gun but have few to choose from locally and so I am contemplating an online purchase.

1.How do these transactions work? I have spoken with my local gun shop and they will handle the paperwork- do I simply supply his address and Fed. permit number to the seller along with my payment- and then pick up the gun at the gun shop when it is delivered?

2.When a seller says that he will entertain offers, what is a reasonable amount for me to suggest? -10%? -20%? More?

3. How about returns if the gun isn't acceptable to me? I should decide that before we complete the firearms paper work, correct? So all that I will be out is a round trip ticket for the package, correct? Well, I guess that I will owe the gun shop something for their time too.

Thanks, Jim

Sounds like you already have it pretty well figured out. Find out from your local dealer what he requires as far as identification from the out of state seller, and what he plans to charge you for a transfer fee; anything from $25 to $100 nowadays.

As far as negotiating with a seller, it works just like it does face to face. Know what the value of what you're buying is and dicker from that. Ask for a 3 day return privilege, and don't deal with anyone who won't go along with that...Geo

The seller will need a copy of the FFL of the entity he is sending the gun to. Xerox will do, but the signature should be in ink. Your gunshop should be familiar with this.

If the gun that you are looking at was made pre-1898 then it is not a "gun" by FFL standards and may be purchased and shipped direct to you without an FFL Dealer being involved. You would normally have a three day "look-see" period in which to return the gun if it is not as described and therefore unwanted. Offers are "What the potential Buyer is willing to pay and what the potential Seller is willing to accept".

Best Regards, George

I am curious about the pre-1898 part of the law as it also mentions not being able to use currently obtainable ammunition. All the 12 guage cartridge lengths and loads are available for any 12 guage gun manufactured before 1898.Any thoughts?

corkdecoy,
After a bad experience on my first one,I always had any Gun I was buying long distance sent straight to a good Gunsmith (In my case, Abe Chaber)for a good checkout...I found the sellers willing to give me a couple extra days on the inspection time.
But I always got good pics & details..weight , stock dimentions etc...so knew I liked the Gun & it would fit me.
Saves some headaches if you're not able to measure bbl walls, chambers etc
Franc

18 USC 921 (a)(16). (A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica -- (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

I have always understood the language to mean that any replica of a pre 1898 firearm would be considered modern if it took a modern cartridge. I think if you read this carefully you will get the same impression.The subsection (ii) is referring to guns mentioned in B.

The part I don't understand is the cartridge conversion cylinders for the replica BP revolvers so popular in SASS. You can buy the cap and ball revolver made by __________ (insert your favorite Italian name) from Midway, and on the same page buy the cartridge conversion cylinder that drops right in. It takes rounds readily manufactured in the US. I'm not complaining that someone has found a loop hole, but why do we all have to carry some form of a lisence, or incurr extra expense to receive a double made in the early teens? Does this law mean I can buy an 8 guage made in 1905 and have it shipped directly to me? 8 guage isn't manufactured by anyone in the US that I am aware of.

Wallis,

Your interpretation isn't correct.

You're stumbling over the IF/AND portion of the text.

Let me state it in non-legalese:

IF it is made before 1899, it is not a gun by interpretation of the Federal gun laws enforced by the BATF. Example: I have a 1898 made Lang & Hussey Sidelock Ejector that I am selling. That gun can be shipped to your door with no Federal paperwork and no FFL involved. (its a 12 gauge)

Next part of the law in 18 USC deals with replicas. If I have a colt dragoon pistol replica (percussion cap and ball) it is not a gun by this statute either because it does both of the following A.) replicates a pre 1899 gun, and B.) is not designed for modern ammunition. A+B are necessary for a replica to be "not a gun".

Now if I were to make a replica Lang & Hussey as a perfect clone of my 1898 ejector gun that shoots a 12 gauge shell, that WOULD BE a gun and WOULD BE subject to modern gun regulations. If it were not, you could argue that EVERY Spanish Best shotgun made from 1930 to today is a non-firearm. (they are all based on Holland and Holland lock patents, Anson and Deeley boxlocks, Anson forend plungers, etc. etc.) The point being, every modern double gun is a replica, it replicates a suite of patents that are all pre-1899. Obviously, they are all considered guns because they don't pass both tests: 1.) They are replicas, arguably, but 2.) they shoot a modern cartridge. (passing point 1 but failing point 2 makes the replica a gun subject to modern law)

Thanks. That explanation is what I needed to hear.

I dont believe you really read my post correctly. I cant see how you are getting that I misunderstand the statute.

I believe we have the same interpetation. All I was trying to point out is that a pre 1899 gun is an antique-no matter what it shoots. The statute he was referring to was referring to replicas. If you are selling a replica Colt SAA Calvary in .45 Colt (all were made prior to 1898) it is a modern gun, for instance. Maybe I was unclear in my post.

If you possess a 12 double barrel sawed off Shotgun(Barrel less than 18") that was made prior to 1899 how do you perceive this would be viewed by the BATFE?
Jim

I think that is spelled out too (in the gun control act of 1968). If it is a sawed off shotgun or a machine gun, modern rules apply. I.e. it is considered same as a modern gun in that case.

I do want to point out that I AM NOT a lawyer( which is obvious to the fine legal mind of Rookhawk) and if you are contemplating buying anything questionable, get a NRA or otherwise gun savy lawyer to tell you what is legal and what is not.

Have an urge to buy a used British game gun but have few to choose from locally and so I am contemplating an online purchase.

1.How do these transactions work? I have spoken with my local gun shop and they will handle the paperwork- do I simply supply his address and Fed. permit number to the seller along with my payment- and then pick up the gun at the gun shop when it is delivered?

As already stated. You must supply a valid, signed FFL. You can mail it, fax it or email it.

2.When a seller says that he will entertain offers, what is a reasonable amount for me to suggest? -10%? -20%? More?

Depends on what you think the gun is worth and what is being asked. There are some that I would not even offer 50% of their ask price. For some, I have no problem paying exactly what they want.

3. How about returns if the gun isn't acceptable to me? I should decide that before we complete the firearms paper work, correct? So all that I will be out is a round trip ticket for the package, correct? Well, I guess that I will owe the gun shop something for their time too.

You have to work it out in advance with the seller. Yes, you pay the shipping both ways. What you owe the local FFL depends on your relationship. I have returned guns and my FFL has not charged me. But we have been doing business for years.

Pete

Sounds easy enough....wait till you buy one.

My suggestion is to let someone like Diggory Hadoke of Vintage Guns UK or John Farugia of Cheshire Gun Room handle the deal for you. They can walk you through the paperwork and they can also eyeball the gun for you prior to shipment so you don't get stuck with a "white elephant" If you buy from one of the well known auction houses: Holt's, Bonham's, Gavin Gardiner's, etc., it is still a good idea to have a knowledgeable expert on that side of the pond look at the gun for you, but certainly do so if you buy from one of the lesser known auctions, shops or individual. JMHO

Best Regards, George

I've had enough trouble buying vintage guns across country there is no way in hell I'd chance buying one sight unseen across the ocean from anyone.

Homeless, Got any horror stories to share?

If you are in this business long enough, your going to get burned from time to time. My rule is real good pictures and good communication (on the phone) before you send the check and FFL. Lacking either of those, you must I repeat must be granted a 3 day inspection period and they must say you can return it for any reason at all at your (not their) expense. The times' I've been burned were because the guns were badly represented and both dealers said they would honor the 3 day inspection period and then both backed out of that promise. Both times I was stuck. Both times I moved the guns onward with full disclosure of the warts and took my lumps.

However, trying do be too picky can often result in missing out on some good guns. Some folks don't know what they have. They don't know the basics, such as ringing the barrels, bore diameter, barrel wall thickness etc. They are either uninformed, or they just don't have the equipment to provide the information. You can often ask lots of questions and walk them through the process to your satisfaction.

Also, some won't honor the 3 day inspection period because they were burned by tire kickers. I've also heard of folks who shipped guns in one condition, the buyer didn't like them and upon inspection on the return the seller determined they had been messed with.

In summary, you just have to be careful and trust your instincts. BTW, the two guns I was burned on were both Foxes. One had been redone (and badly) and was represented as not being refinished (this was years ago) and the other was a pawn shop dealer in Florida who was simply a liar and crook.

If you decide to use one of the US auction sites to bid and buy guns you need to be extra careful. I had two problems with GB. Both times the GB site was a total waste of time in all efforts to either get my money refunded or stop the seller from ripping off other buyers. They neither enforce or even tried to get the seller to follow their "clearly written terms". End result was a loss of money for me and total resolve to never give GB another dime of my money. A few bad sellers can ruin a auction site and when the site fails to police their sellers the buyers are just going to get screwed in the end.

When looking at a vintage hammer gun on the Internet a few years back that was listed by a reputable dealer that was supposed to be an 'English gun expert' (with the gun in his hand).....I asked "What condition is the breech face in ?" his answer "great condition"....."Are the firing pin holes corroded ?"..."they look fine". Everything else sounded okay so I ordered the gun.

When I opened the box the gun looked beautiful...first thing I looked at the was the breech face and firing pin holes. The right one looked like it had two holes. When you pushed the hammer forward the firing pin drooped to the point that I wondered if it would even hit the primer.

I immediately called him up and called him out on the lie he had told me.....his reply was "What do you expect for $3000 dollars ?"

I told him I expected him to refund my money along with the shipping both ways or I would take pictures and expose him on the Internet for the bull $%&^ artist he was.

Needless to say he used what little brain power he had and refunded the total amount.

Ouch! I am starting to get real nervous- I guess I will get on the phone to talk to the seller of the gun that I am interested in. Good advice from lots of folks here, thanks.

It's the so called reputable gun dealers that I've had the most trouble with....they just won't tell and hope that you won't see it....Then they come up with some lame reply or offer to cut the price alittle more.

My advise is ask lots of questions and if you don't know what you are looking at....find someone who does and has the tools to measure the bores....and that is easier said than done.

Some of the guys at my gun club are gun shy of me...they don't want me going over their purchases. Then others ask me to help them look one over...I looked over a vintage English hammer gun last week with a buddy it was priced about 4 grande it had some glitter but was over priced by at least $2500 bucks in my oppinion. As a shooter I'm not sure I'd be interested at $1500 bucks.

Cleaned action.....steel barrels with scatered blued over pitting on the outside of the barrels some bad some not so bad.....a couple of spots of deep pitts in both barrels that were really hard to see (had to get outdoors and look at the sky to see them)....One barrel grew in the middle by 4 thousands ?........a couple of serial numbers didn't match....in my oppinion it was over proofed for the barrel weight and chamber thickness (blown out to 3" and re-proofed for 1 & 1/2 oz). blued hammers....the feel of the locks wasn't the greatest....long firing pin on one side short on the other....plastic butt plate.

What do you expect for 4 grande ?

I think most reputable dealers are . . . well, reputable. If you have questions about a particular dealer, this is a great place to ask. You will get "references" from people who've bought from that dealer and had good experiences, and you'll likely hear the not so good stuff too.

My two bad experiences have both been with well-known/reputable dealers (one a national retailer with a "fine gun" room and the other a maker with a large used gun collection). In both cases, I asked specific questions about the gun condition, including action tightness. In both cases, the guns arrived with loose actions, despite assurances to the contrary. The "good" news in both cases was that the dealers made good on their misrepresentations, but there was still a fair amount of unnecessary effort and aggravation. In fact, with one gun, I sent it back for the needed repairs, and it came back 3 weeks later untouched, so I had to send it back again.

It led me to conclude some dealers will say what is needed to sell the gun and hope the buyer doesn't have the gun inspected and/or is not savvy enough to notice. And apparently they get away with it enough to continue doing it.