I have been very pleased with my first three RBLs, 20-, 28- and 16-gauge. Since receiving the RBL-16 the day after Memorial Day 2009, I have shot skeet with it and hunted it plenty, and it is fast becoming my go-to gun. The RBL-12 I got was a very heafty 32-incher at 8 pounds 14.7 ounces. It was exactly what I ordered but after I got it I knew it wasn't the gun for me. So I asked Louie to be on the lookout for a lighter RBL-12 for me, and yesterday it arrived at my local FFL. Like my others it is a straight grip with double triggers. This gun has 30-inch barrels and weighs in at a much more manageable 7 pounds 4.9 ounces.

It appears to my eye and calipers, that this RBL-12 is built on the same receiver as my RBL-16, not the receiver with the wider and higher standing breech that my first RBL-12 had.

New RBL-12 --



Top view RBL-12 above RBL-16 --



Top view RBL-16 above old heavy RBL-12 --



Breech ends of barrels of RBL-12 light and RBL-16 --



This is kind of like a Parker Bros. 12-gauge built on the 1-frame.

My 32" RBL is a heavy gun also, but I love it. It is really amazing how well a gun this big can handle so well. Very smooth and balanced.
JR

Dave, can you post pictures of your heavy 12 and tell us whether you will be selling it? I wonder if your lightweight is a one of a kind?

As I think I have posted before, my RBL-12 with 28" bbls and straight stock weighs exactly 7 pounds with the thin pad, 3.2 ounces more with the thick pad. SST and BT forend. Balanced perfectly for my uses. Guess I should take a few measurements??

Researcher, I find your report very interesting. My Ithaca NID (trap configuration) has 32" barrels, is padded out to 15 5/8" LOP, weighs 9# 2 oz, balances 5 1/2" in front of the sihgle trigger, has unmounted swing effort of 2.95, mounted swing effort of 11.73, and half weight radius of 12.24. I suspedt your heavy RBL would be similar bus slightly less swing efforts. I shoot the NID well, despite its significant muscle effort required to lift, hold, and swing. Did you ever shoot the two 12 bore RBL's "head to head?" Or, did you make a determination that you just didn't enjoy the heavier gun?

Any chance you are going to be where I could bet measurements on your guns?

Researcher,

Do you have a pic comparing the breeches of the twelve ga. guns? Also pics to compare the muzzles of the three, 12 heavy, 12 light, 16. It appears that the breech end is same as the 16 with the chambers rebored to 12 ga. by comparing the wall thickness. Very interesting addition to the RBL story. Do you know how it shoots yet?

I have a light 16 RBL that is my go to hunting gun now. I would like to try a heavy hulk 12 ga. for trap and maybe waterfowl. I am interested in why you don't care for the heavy gun. What did you intend to use it for, if I may?

Chief

The "Beast" has been gone from my presence since The Vintage Cup. I was led down the primrose path by other sporting clays shooters and their long heavy guns. I've shot my 8 pound 9 ounce Super-Fox for over forty-six years, but my 9 pound half ounce Fox-Sterlingworth Wildfowl has only been in the field once where in my opinion was it handled like a railroad tie. For eleven years I shot a Remington 3200 tube set at skeet which weighed over 9 pounds. Some guns got it and some don't!! For me that heavy RBL-12 wasn't it. Once it was moving one way I couldn't make any corrections when the wind interfered. I should have gone with my own experience that for the last decade, my best shooting is with guns in the seven pound range -- from my smallbore Superposed New Model Skeets, to my Fox-Sterlingworth Ejector Skeet & Upland Game Gun, to my Superposed 32-inch Broadway.

I took measurements of my RBL receivers back when I first got the "Beast", but I haven't found that sheet of paper yet. The measurement across the breechballs of my RBL-16 and this new RBL-12 is 2 5/32 inch. You can see the "Beast" had a little nub between the breechballs that the smaller frame doesn't.

2 and 5/32 inches is about 54 millimeters, which got me measuring my 12g doubles, one Italian one English. They both measure 57 millimeters across the breech ends, both have barrel thickness at just over 4 mm at the breech end (just below the rim step). Both of them weigh 6,6 lbs, or 3 kilos. Seems like the source of the extra weight of the RBL 12 is in the barrels more than the action body.

Puzzle is how the RBL 12 can fit the 12 gauge barrels on the 54 mm receiver. The dimensional "squeeze" probably is in the middle part, between the barrels. In the photo is seems like the 16 has a narrower lump than the 12.

The way to determine if the big 12 and the little 12 are different receiver forgings is to measure the distance between firing pins. Firing pin separation determines barrel interchange capability. Everything else can usually be filed into place. Some of the 12 gauge RBLs are real horses, but I have never measured them.

So, is the RBL 16 built on a true 16ga frame, or on a light 12ga frame? I have a friend whose 16 is pretty heavy (7+), which is fine for him, because he uses it for targets and does not hunt. But most guys looking for 16's are after field guns, not target guns. If you want a 7#+ target gun, there are plenty of 12's out there to fill the bill, and reloading for them is more practical.

Just for reference purposes I measured two 16s I have at hand, one French one German:

Manufrance Idéal:
-Receiver width (across the balls) 54.3mm
-Between firing pins 26.8mm

Simson:
-Receiver width (across the balls) 54mm
-Between firing pins 26mm

JC

Very NICE gun Dave, As you know I have one the "Beasts" My 12ga RBL 32" Straight grip gun with a butt plate weights 8lbs 9oz It measures 2 5/16" across the breech balls. The distance between the firing pin holes (center line to center line) is 1.182"
It is my go to waterfowl gun when the weather conditions are to nasty for the Foxes.

Eightbore,

At my request Adam of CSMC made me a lighter 32" RBL 12 than my 9lb 3oz RBL which has a PG, BTFE, and vent rib.
- Oh, the vent rib popped loose so I sent the gun back to Adam for repair. He returned it within a couple weeks and it had an assisted opener installed! With the opener the gun weighs 9lbs 4oz.

My companion 32" RBL 12 weighs 7lbs 9oz. It is a SG and BTFE.

The barrels from my light RBL 12 fit the heavier receiver perfectly with but one exception. The firing pins and breach balls are much wider on the heavier receiver.

The barrels of the heavier are obviously much thicker at the breach/chamber area.

Mark

Researcher,

Thank you for your reasoning. There are some of my concerns in your response. I am not sure at this point I would like the heavy gun, heaviest I have used was a NID 16Ga that was 7#.

L.Brown,

According to CSMC the 16 is built on a "scaled" frame. They did not define scaled. It would appear that it is both a 16 and a light twelve. A set of 12ga. barrels for my 16 ga might be interesting. I do not believe that that the weight issues with the 16 ga RBL have much to do with the frame or the barrels. My 16 weighs 6# 3 Oz. in my view that is a light 16, would you agree? Consider that you would be hard pressed to find many SxS 16's that are less. I do believe that my RBL is not typical from what most that have them have reported. It's the wood/pad system!

Chief

I remember that when I got my big RBL-12 I measured the frames, and the body of the frame was the same size on the RBL-16 and the RBL-12, the RBL-12 just had a higher and wider standing breech. My RBL-28 and RBL Launch Edition 20-gauge are both totally seperate frames.

I shot the new one today, and there must be something wrong with it as it missed the low six on the doubles on the second round --- 49 x 50. I thought about quitting after the first round, cleaning the gun and putting it in the safe!!! Leave it the gun I never missed with.

Researcher

Yes, definately a reject. Cast it aside quickly!

A couple of follow up questions for you.

A previous poster observed that the lump or hook looks thinner on the 16 ga barrel set. True or optical illusion?

Would you compare the weight of the 12 ga. barrel set to the 16 ga. set?

Chief

The lugs are exactly the same width -- .354"

The 30-inch 12-gauge barrels weigh 3 pounds 2.1 ounces and the 29-inch 16-gauge barrels weigh 2 pounds 12.2 oz for a difference of 5.9 oz which accounts for all but 0.2 oz difference in the guns weights.

Getting this all going I tried swapping barrels and forearms. The 12-gauge barrels and forearm go on the RBL-16 receiver like they were made for it. The 16-gauge barrels almost go on the RBL-12 receiver, but I wasn't about to force anything.

Researcher,

Thanks for taking the time to measure/weigh your guns. I would think that a shorter set of 12 ga barrels, 26-27" would be close to the same weight of the 16's at 29" I think you know where I'm going with this idea. A 6# 8 Oz 12 would be a nice pheasant gun. Walk a bit, shoot a little! Hmmmmmm.

Chief

My 28" barreled RBL-12 which weighs exactly 7 pounds ( BTFE, SS ) with the thinner pad on the interchangable pad system measures 2 1/8 inches ( 54 millimeters ) from outside the breechballs and just shy of 1 3/32 of an inch between firing pins. With a splinter FE and a regular butt-plate (i.e., no interchange system) I am fairly certain the weight could be down close to 6 1/2 pounds. FWIW.

btdtst,

I think you're right, maybe less than 6-8 with short barrels SG/SFE and HRBP. Not for the recoil sensitive and the skeet shooters. Pheasant hunting would be a different story, I could withstand a few shots spread out over a few hours. I used to have a Ithaca/SKB 100 12G that was 6-7. Her name was Kickatha! The stock had no CO and in all other dimensions didn't fit, a slap to the face in every shot! Sold to help with the RBL 16.

When you ordered your RBL 12 did you request a light gun? I have read posts where some RBL 12's have been under 7#, they were requested as light guns. Could be that they too are on the 16Ga. frames as your's and researcher's are.

Chief

When I ordered it I simply requested "as light as possible" along with a non-automatic safety on the order form. It killed a pheasant again yesterday.

Well, we're on page three and no one has given us firing pin separation figures for the three frames. And what's this millimeter business? Doesn't anyone own a common old Starrett vernier caliper any more? Can't we get to the bottom of the question about whether the big 12 and the little 12 have the same firing pin separation? How about the question about whether the little 12 and the 16 have the same or different firing pin separations? Before this thread, I had no idea that a light 12 was one of the options. Live and learn. Sure wish I knew that Dave was selling the "horse".

Eightbore,

In my post in this thread, which I addressed to you to answer your question, I stated that the firing pins are definately different distances. I could not measure them since I was away from home at the time. For obvious reasons I did not reveal that fact. Now that I have returned I will try to find time to measure tomorrow and post.

Mark

Eightbore,

The firing pin seperation for the 16Ga. is 1.075" center to center according to my eye and a Mitutoyo caliper. Have to wait for Mark for the 12Ga.

Chief

As I stated above the firing pin separation on the big 12ga is 1.182 center to center.

The firing pin center-to-center measurement on my RBL-16 and my RBL-12 light is 1 5/64 inch, which according to my calculator is 1.078".

Center to center on mine ( a Light 12?? ) is 1.07 inches.

When did a 7# 12ga become a light weight? A 7# 12ga with a wrist like Hillery's thiegh is hardly my idea of a trim light weight field gun.

Tracey,

A 7# 12ga would be an average weight, a 6# 8oz 12Ga. would be a light weight. Most American classic 12Ga. SxS field guns will be very close to 7#, plus or minus a ounce or two.

Define in your terms a trim, light weight field gun in a 12 Ga. SxS. Also please post up some examples of them with actual weights, not advertised weights.

I shudder to think of Hillary's thighs or any other parts! No part of an RBL is that bad!

Chief

Chief,

Sauer 28in 6#7oz

Pedro Gorasable 28in 6#5oz

Webly&Scott 30in 6#8oz

Lewis 26in 6# even

All with nice trim wrist, well balenced and all for less money than an RBL.

Tracy,

Then we agree, 6# 8Oz is a light twelve. I think if you review the entire topic you would have to agree that a 7# 12 Ga RBL is certainly light(er) than the 8# to 10# guns.

With the exeption of the Sauer, (maybe) it may not be a great idea to feed any of your guns listed a steady diet of say 1 1/4 Oz Nitro Pheasants or similar ammo. Set your Sauer up with the CSMC interchangeable pad system and create a 7# er!

Back to the light(er) twelve Ga. RBL. There are a few light RBL 16's. These guns were ordered as a game gun with SG/SFE/HRBP and will weigh from the lightest to the heaviest I am aware of, 6# 2 Oz, to 6# 10 Oz. Other heavier 16's were ordered with EW/PG/BTFE/Pad system. These guns will be at 6# 14Oz to 7# 5 Oz. from what I have deduced. Small wonder that they are heavy. If you order a trap gun that is what you should expect! Now let's presume that CSMC would provide a set of 12 Ga barrels for the 16 Ga frame, (obviously they have made them). The result should be a light twelve in the 6# 8 Oz range with 26" barrels, SG/SFE/HRBP. A gun that you can feed whatever is available, steel, lead, no-tox.

I have owned a few guns like you have listed. Most notably a 16 Ga W&C Scott. Slim wristed, light, a very nice little 20 GAUGE!!

In the end there isn't a right or wrong here. Buy what you like and use it in good health.

Chief

Gentlemen,

Sorry for the delay but my 5-day old metal hip hasn't learned to climb the stairs to the vault very well...

I did not have my best gauge available but these measurements should be very close.

Heavy 32" RBL 12:
-Firing Pin Centers: 1.159"
-Breach Balls: 2.312"

Light 32" "Special Order" RBL 12:
-Firing Pin Centers: 1.079"
-Breach Balls: 2.157"

Differences:
-Firing Pin Centers: .080"
-Breach Balls: 1.55"

It appears that my Light 32" RBL 12 was built on a 16 Gauge frame. When I received that gun I called Adam of CSMC to thank him. I asked him how he managed to build such a light gun? He responded, "It was a lot of work." Since CSMC reportedly spends but a one hour hand labor on manufacturing RBLs I doubt they made any profit on this special order gun! Perhaps the only reason Adam would accept a special order (at no additional cost to me) was that when previously the rib seperated on my Heavy RBL 12, I was most polite to him acknowledging that in manufacturing any new product, "stuff happens". Had I been a butthead demanding it be repaired in a week he may not have thought well of me. Treating people respectfully (as we wish to be treated) is something I that over the years that I have learned to do. In this case I believe my good manners brought me a free assisted opener (see my previous post) for my Heavy RBL 12 and CSMC accepting a special order for a Light 32" RBL for which I highly doubt they made any profit on.

As an old friend from Macon Georgia advised me years ago, "Good manner will take you far!"

Respectfully,
Mark

The RBL's strike me as being heavy for a walking field gun, I do not want to carry a 7lb + gun while walking behind a dog. In my world I want a 12ga no more than 6.5lb and a smaller gauge should be lighter. I do not understand why anyone would want a smaller gauge gun that weighs more than a 12.
Note my comments above are for walking field guns. I do own some heavier 12ga SXS guns for high volume dove shooting, sporting clays etc but I think they will all top out at about 8lb.
Here is a description of a gun I recently had made for myself by Verney-Carron.

12ga 2 3/4" chambers
Steel shot proof barrels
30" barrels
Screw in chokes
6lb 6oz
round body action (action at the hinge pin ....1.5 wide, .75 deep, 6.5" diameter around the barrels)
bottom rib left off to save weight
classic style swamped game rib
Hand checkered, hand engraved
ejectors
Skeleton butt plate, so that a recoil pad would not drag when bringing the gun up.
Lock up is the same 6 lugs that V-C uses on the big Nitro double rifles

Ken, what's the street price on The V-C ? Is this built to your specs or a production gun. Any idea what a 20ga may weigh? Where can I handle one? Photos???

To add in my two cents worth as I am the owner of a 16 gauge RBL (straight grip and splinter), I will say that I am very pleased with this shotgun. It is now my main choice for pheasant hunting and has performed really well in the field. My gun weighs with the shorter of the two supplied recoil pads 6 lbs. 10 oz. and I find this weight is very good for balance and carrying. The thicker pad adds 3 oz. and would be my choice for using the RBL for trap shooting. All in all I think I made a real smart choice when I ordered this shotgun; I'd recommend these guns highly.

I dare say the vast majority of American hunters have carried seven pound and heavier 12-gauge guns while following bird dogs after prairie grouse and pheasants since the end of the Northern War of Aggression. How many 12-gauge Parker Bros.; Ithaca doubles; A.H. Fox; L.C. Smiths; Stevens; Bakers; Winchester Model 97, 12, and 21s; Remington Model 1894, 1900, 10, 11, Sportsman, 29, 31, etc. etc. weigh less than seven pounds?

It appears some have missed the point ken/kebco made. Yeah, most those 12ga. American classics were indeed over 7 lbs., but who in the world wants to lug those beasts around all day, Paul Bunyan?

I only said the guns were heavy, I personally would never buy a 16 that weighs more than many 12ga guns. For me a 16 should weigh less than 6.5lb and closer to 6. I settled on a 12 for availability of ammo and wanted barrels safe for steel if that was all I could find or was required to use

This is why I no longer hunt with any of the above, had at one time or another 12ga 21's, Parkers, Lefevers, LC's, Fox's, and although there is a romance with hunting with a American classic there are better choices for me.
I try not to hunt with pumps and auto's (except waterfowl and turkeys) and will not allow them in any photo's.

They are made to order, start about $9K depending on options. You can spec the weight, I have seen a 20 well under 6lb.
V-C will be at Dallas Safari Club and SCI/Reno in Jan 2011.
I have a hard time with photo posting, I can however email photos

Thank you, that was my point

Wild Skies,

Outside of the small group of SxS users is the majority hunters using Rem 1100's, 1187's, A-5 Browning, Model 12 etc. None of those guns will weigh under 7# in 12 Ga. I would suppose most of the people that use those guns never give a thought or care to what their gun weighs. Some do drive blue trucks, ox option extra!

ken/kebco had a special light weight gun made to his specs. He is obviously thrilled with it. The guns weighs 6# 6 Oz. If he had ordered the gun with big wood and a big recoil pad it would not weigh 6# 6 Oz.

My theoretical RBL light 16/12 would weigh 6# 3 Oz/6# 8 Oz based on solid evidence contained within this topic. You can do your own research and arrive at your own conclusion.

People like what they like for their own reasons.

Chief

Thanks for the measurements of the RBL frames. I'm sure the lightweight 12 gauge frame is news to many of us.

Ken,

Correct, the RBL 16's do seem a trifle heavy for a 16 but many shooters enjoy those guns. My Heavy RBL 12 was built as a Duck and Clays gun. At 9 lbs 3 oz is is heavy for the field although I have hunted pheasants with it several times with great success. It is however certainly not a grouse gun!

The 6lb, 6oz piece sounds like a fine gun for you. I however like a little heavier gun because I shoot a 7 and a half pound gun far more consistantly than a 6 and a half pound gun. I dare say that if Nash Buckingham were alive to comment he might prefer even a heavier gun. Why? As a former semi-pro boxer, even in later years Nash was perhaps in better physical shape than I am now.

So, contary to popular shooting tales, a light gun may not be the best choice for all. A shooter's physical stature, build, condition, overall health, and age are all significant factors in determining what works for them on the range and in the field. Also consider the game hunted and the terrian where it is found.

Ken, enjoy your new Verney-Carron! I'll keep my 7 and a half pound monsters for my hunts. Oh, if I need a lighter gun I'll shoot that 6 pound 15 ounce Merkel Model 8 which I bought from a fine businessman (i.e. YOU) some eight or so years ago!

Respectfully,
Mark

Eightbore,

I agree that CSMC missed an opportunity by not listing the differences in their light and heavy RBL 12's. Since the light RBL 12 appears to have the same frame as their 16 ga perhaps they didn't want that fact to be public.

At Hausman's Hidden Hollow shoot this past June I dropped the light gun off with CSMC to remove a loose piece of solder from under the ribs. Lou of CSMC expressed that, "I could shoot this gun!" I told him that I thought they could sell many 30" and 32" in RBLs on the smaller frame.

Mark

"I do not understand why anyone would want a smaller gauge gun that weighs more than a 12."

So, why did I buy a 16 ga. RBL -- heavier than someone else's definition of maximum weight for a 16 -- when I could get a 12 ga. at the same or less weight and lower cost? I'll add my reasons to Chief's "different strokes" response: here's what I wanted and got with my RBL 16 at just under 6.75 lbs.

-- New gun with customer specified choke/stock choices, warranty, and 100% of it's lifespan ahead. (Question: Why would I want to invest the time and effort to find a used lightweight 12 that fits my specs and has no age-related issues I don't want to deal with?)
-- I like a single trigger when wearing heavy gloves in far below freezing temperatures -- like single digits in the mornings.
-- For those who like the Brits' prescribed rules, it fits the "rule of 96X" target weight for 1-1/8 oz. pheasant loads, while still comfortable for occasional 1-1/4 oz. duck (Kent TMs) or late season pheasant (Federal) loads. Could serve for turkeys too.
-- Comfortable shooting higher volume at clays with same gun I use in the field.
-- No worries about steel shot.
-- Straight grip wrist is more slender than Penelope Cruz's. (I don't have small hands.)

It would be easy enough to reduce stock thickness or bore out more wood to get the weight of this gun well under 6.5 lbs. But I don't want it that light -- at least not now at age 58. I mostly hunt pheasants over springers, and I use my legs more than the hup whistle. The weight of this gun carried for hours just is not an issue. If it is when I'm 70 or 75, maybe I'll take some wood off the stock.

This gun does everything I'll ask a gun of any gauge to do for my kind of hunting. (Please don't start in about shot strings.)

Jay