I bought a gun via private party and he shipped it to an FFL I had identified. The FFL dealer that is holding my side by side said he will not release it to me as the private party I bought it from did not send his driver license and passport. Th er FFL dealer says he can not log this into his books unless he has a drivers licsense

The private party tells me he does not have to supply a drivers license when shipping the gun only a signed copy of the FFL he is sending it to. Where do I stand?

Thanks Erin

Your FFL is conductng a Private Party Transfer of the gun from the seller to you. He's got to have proper identity information in order to do so. Tell your seller to get on the ball or he'll end up with his firearm back in his possession.

Some FFL's demand this when receiving from a private party others do not.

Not sure why this would be required.

Query: Who will your FFL send it back to? He might have to send it back to an FFL!

For the first time ever (last week) I sent a gun to an FFL and he required a copy of my DL. Go figger......

If your dealer has held the gun overnight without booking it in his records, he's probably already in Dutch with the BATF@E. All my local dealers require a picture ID to book a transfer gun in and threaten to refuse delivery and give it back to UPS if they don't get the ID. My individual sellers have always backed down and faxed the ID rather than have the gun placed in 'Common Carrier Purgatory' like that.

My take from what I've read and what the dealers have told me is that the BATF&E agent has advised them that if they're going to handle private party transfers, they better be sure whose ID they are booking the gun in under. The DL/PIC ID seems to be a 'safe harbor' for the dealer. Remember, the dealer is a private business man who is being watched by a non-friendly beaurocracy enforcing very fuzzy regulations. If he says this is how he wants to do business, its pretty much his call.

I recently sold two BRNOs to a poster here from Maine who wanted to ship through Kittery Trading Post. Kittery flat refused to accept a gun from me as an unlicensed individual no matter what ID I provided, so I had to ship through my local FFL. Maybe if your seller won't verify his identity, he can have his local dealer fax a FFL to ypour dealer and they can book the gun in through them...Geo

Quote:
"I recently sold two BRNOs to a poster here from Maine who wanted to ship through Kittery Trading Post. Kittery flat refused to accept a gun from me as an unlicensed individual no matter what ID I provided, so I had to ship through my local FFL. "

Not a legal requirement and this is from an operation that should know better. Every day we allow this type of behavior, which is encouraged by a Government entity, to go on the noose tightens perceptibly around our collective necks.
Get out and vote this November. We need to make gun ownership relief for law abiding citizens a top priority as soon as we can.
Jim
PS: Jim legg and I were apparentely posting at the same time and I would do the same as him which is provide a copy of my drivers license and C&R.

Your FFL is maybe partly right. He sure as hell has no reason to require a passport from the seller. Many people do not have nor have ever had a passport. However, I think he needs some identification from the seller, for HIS records. He does NOT need an FFL, from the seller's end, though some ignoramuses are wrongly insisting on it. Logically speaking, the receiving FFL's real function is to legally transfer the gun to you, the buyer and do whatever background checks(on you) that may be required. IMO, the seller could be Ted Bundy and it really wouldn't matter. However, to make things smoother for a buyer, I now always include a picture of my driver's license and my C&R, along with the gun I'm selling. If that's not good enough for your FFL, take your business elsewhere. Any demands beyond that are flat wrong.

I really wish there was a place you could report these abuses by FFLs. However, the typical bureaucratic clerk you'd get to talk to would probably know less about the fine points of the rules than some of the paranoid FFLs out there. Here in Utah, I've had good experiences with the FFLs I've dealt with but I know there are some real dingbats out there. Good luck.

I have been on the receiving end of this doing transfers. While it is not a legal requirement, it is only common sense to ask for some sort of identification from the private seller who ships the gun to you. You can then can show due diligence if any questions come up.
Many dealers dont know the laws. many do and many are in between.
best suggestion is that when you enter into a transaction with a private seller, get the details and requirements of the dealer you plan to use.

I am a ffl dealer,and we require a person to provide id before we will take in a firearm.The seller needs to provide it.Its not fun to have atf breathing down your neck,and on transfers it hardly
worth having to worry about it for the little bit of money you are making on it.Sometimes transfers can be a pain in the butt.

Who does receiving FFL send it back to if the seller is not an FFL?

The receiving FFL does NOT require any ID from the shipper by law. He does need ID from the buyer as that is his function to insure that a legal recipient gets the gun. YOU should want an ID from the seller because YOU are on the mark, not the FFL if you are clean, if there is a problem with the gun later and any seller that would refuse that request should be sent to look for another buyer.

If the ambiguous mf'ing BATF would just make things clear ONE TIME it would sure make things easier for everyone, them included
And that's not JMO that's a simple fact

you might want to look at this page
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/regulations/

Dr.WtS

The inclusion of any documents not required for the legal transfer of a firearm (IMO) just muddies up the water even more.
If a proof of ID is not specifically required,then then no laws are broken, nor are you exposing yourself to liability.

The receiving/refusing FFL SHOULD return it directly to the unsuccessful seller. It's still his gun, no transfer having been made.

The law is not that clear.As a dealer we have to be able to provide from where the gun came from and where it has gone.A copy of the senders id is good proof of where it came from.Every agent that inspects you has a different extirpation of the law. If you have ever been of the receiving end of an ATF gun trace you want to cover your butt.Having all the documentation you can really helps.
The seller should be glad to provide anything you ask for,unless he is hiding something.He is the one making the money,not the trans dealer.

This reminded me of one problem we had.The seller sent the gun for transfer,the buyer came in to get it and refused to pick it up,because it was not in the shape he thought it was to be.Ok ,we told him to tell his seller to refund his money and pay for the shipping back.The seller refused.The buyer wouldn't pay for the shipping back until he was refunded in full.After about two weeks of trying to get someone to do something with the gun the buyer and the seller worked it out and the gun went back.All this for $20.00.

$20 bucks (more like $30 around here), times however many transfers you do. No floorplan interest, no investment but what you already have on hand. Transfers are pretty good business if you ask me. Most of'em are clean as a whistle....Geo

Kittery has changed their policy or someone didn't know it. I sold a Remington Sendero, and M1A and a couple of shotguns over the years to folks in Maine. All were transferred through Kittery, from me as a private individual.

FWIW - I usually take the copy of the FFL sent to me by the dealer and photocopy it with my drivers license below it on the same sheet of paper. That way I keep his copy for my records and he can see that the person he sent it to is the one sending the gun.

C'mon guys, I'm as or more paranoid as the next guy, but this isn't where the BATFE is going to show up on your door. Hell I have purchased guns in at least a dozen states while traveling and probably another dozen via internet sales. I know I have owned over 300 guns in the last 25 years. I have so much paperwork out there, someone would go nuts trying to wade through it.

pawnbroker is as close to fact as you're going to get here.

Everyones the expert except the guys who is risking his livelyhood, and you think he is making a killing at $20?
I wouldn't do these kinds of tranfers for $100, I don't do them at all...

In New Jersey it costs me a $75 fee to the FFL. Plus NICS fee plus 7% tax is about $94.

It is steep. However, I have no other convenient place to go for the transfer.

I would never ask anyone to "risk his livelihood". I DO expect them to abide by the actual ATFE rules and NOT make up their own, for any reason!

Jim is 100 % correct !

Could anyone that thinks a drivers license is a legal requirment in the acquistion section of the bound book please post a BATF link?????

1)What would a copy of a D/L prove if that person is not in front of you?

2)How many of the same dealers would not buy (@ 50% value) a DHE 20 (or any gun they can make quick $$) from a widow at gun show who did not have a D/L ????

I have to show ID at the local supermarket to buy beer. I'm 40. My DAD has to show ID to buy beer there. It's not law that they have to check ID, but it's law that they can't sell to underage people...they tried ID'ing at the cashiers discretion and that didn't work. Then they tried ID'ing anyone who appeared under 30 (I took that one as a compliment)...that didn't work either. So now they just force their cashiers to ID everyone, becasue it's their business and livelihood on the line. I'm ok with that.
As far as I can tell, those requirements are not law--so what? People always get their knickers in a twist about FFL's requireing a gun to be shipped FROM another FFL and other stuff like this AT THEIR DISCRETION, but it's so much horsedookey. If a businessman wants to run his business a certain way, that's not for any of us to decide--it's his ass on the line, not mine. I am free to do business with him or not. Frankly, it is a pain in the ass, but it makes perfect sense for a business owner to cover his own ass. Would you prefer someone else (and you know who that'll be) tell you how you have to run your business?

Gee Dave, you sound like you would be a good customer to deal with. Have any of you folks who just can not get past the simple request for a copy of your ID ever been through an ATF audit? When you have the ATF in your shop, you do not tell them how the law works, they tell you. Same situation when you get pulled over for a traffic violation, if you start lecturing a cop about the law and your rights you rarely win. Having very organized books helps and a photo copy of a ID is not that much to ask. Just my view as someone who has been through an audit.
Steve

Thankyou Dave Furman, well put.
It would be appropriate if everyone who has posted above would indicate either -I have a dealer FFL and have been audited by the ATF. or I am not a dealer and have never been audited.
The following are my observations as an audited dealer. I am currently on a two year audit cycle.
1.Frequency of audit cycle is based on the number of transfers you report when renewing licence. The more $25 transfers you do the more frequenly you get audited.
2. An Audit takes @ 8 hrs
3. $25 covers 22.8 minutes of my time at the bench doing repairs. I cant discuss with you, fax ffl and receive goods,log in, call you, wait while you inspect goods, perform NICS check.Turn over gun , Log out and File the 4473 in 22.8 minutes.
4. Under current law the BATFE only have two options , written warning or revocation of licence, no system for varying scale non-compliance fines.
5 Under law I am required to respond within 24 hours to a request for a trace on a firearm.
6 I am forbidden to engage in interstate commerce in stolen property.
So why the requirement that that I get a drivers licence or FFL?
In the event that any of the following occur some time , say 6 months after the transfer I will be required to back trace a gun through my books.This will either involve a visit by Federal Agent or sub-peona.
A. The gun turns out to have been previously stolen.
B. Is used in the commission of a crime.
C. The gun fails causing Injury and is subject to litigation.
As a result of my $25 tranfsfer I will be able to answer either
Gun was received on Behalf of XXXXXX name and date From Drivers Licence XYZ heres a copy.Name on carton matched the DL.Shipped Fedex/ UPS/ USPS and thats the end of it.
-or-
I don't know, some guy named Joe out East somewhere.

I have decided to require either an FFL or Drivers Licence on the very few Out of state 3rd party transfers I do. You have the option to get a store front, licence and do it your way or find some one who runs their business in accordance with your guidelines/preference.

Again,
please show me where is says a D/L is required by the BATF?
The approved bound book asks for Name and Address (or FFL) NOT a D/L (which ,again shows nothing unless that person ins in front of you!)in the acquisition section.

As far as a dealer asking for "other criteria" above and beyond the BATF regs, they can do what ever they want.

Require a Drivers license,FBI backround check,SAT scores,blood and urine sample for drug testing, that the firearm be be wrapped in C Notes for compensation to open the box! Fine with me,then those involved can decide if they want to move forward!!!
That must be determined BEFORE the "contract" to do the transfer takes place !!!!!!! NOT after like the one in this thread.

BTW I am a good person to do business with(cash buyer-that does not require proof of someones(might be the seller-maybe not) driving ability in another state),and yes I have been through a couple audit's on the 01 FFL and do hold a 03 FFL.


so I guess a blind widow (with no D/L) would not be able to sell her husbands Parker's to some dealers?

I do not have a dealers FFL, I do have a C&R but that has no bearing here. I have had a visit by the BATF, but he made an appointment, showed up on time, stayed about 20 min. and was a perfect gentleman.

When I sell a gun out of state I have no problem supplying the receiving FFL with my name, address and phone number. I will not give out my drivers license, SS#, passport photo or library card. Sending that info across the country is inviting identity theft. Not everyone who works at an FFL is as scrupulous as the gentlemen who frequent this BBS.

Requiring a drivers license is not mandated but rather a personal choice and I feel it's falling right into the hands of those who are trying to curb 2 Amendment rights, much the same as sellers who will not sell to certain states.

I do believe that a receiving FFL has the right to run his business anyway he wants to. I also have the right not to agree. Lastly, get this all cleared up before committing to buying a gun. Ask the seller if he minds sending his ID. If he does, find another seller or find another FFL.

BTW, here in NY the going rate for a transfer is $75, one or two guys will do it for $50 and I don't know anyone doing it for $20 in the last 10 years.

I have no issue with sending a photo ID if that makes the FFL feel comfortable. But as Dave K has stated I see no benefit from it.
Mark my word, some uniformed FFL holder is going to start asking for SS#'s before long and this converation will appear again. IMO you never give the government more information than is required. And by the way, my FFL does transfers for me for no charge. Just one of the benefits of a 30 year relationship.

Hey guys,many here are missing the point. Whether it's a legal requirement for photo id is irrelevent. Receiving FFL can set his own requirements that are over and above the ATF&E requirement. If the receiving FFL wants photo id from the private shipper, that's what he wants. If private guy wants to ship a gun to that FFL he has to comply. If that doesn't suit the private shipper then he needs to find someone else. End of story.

I am a member of the Scottsdale Gun Club. The charge for a transfer is $20 for members or $45 for non members. I help out in the gunsmithing department so any transfer is at no cost to me which is the same as it is for employees.
I believe I stated earlier that I don't have a problem providing a copy of my drivers* license even though it's not required as Dave K has pointed out.
However I would draw the line at providing my SSN.
Jim

Bottom line. If the legal experts want to get their own FFL it's A-Ok with me. In the meantime I'll run my 35+ year business in my best interests.

Thanks for your explanation Hugh, but the responses here are exactly why I rarely do transfers. Some don't care about your risks, your time or your economic viability...

This comes up every so often with the same rants, including mine, and the same results. I've learned my lesson.
Best,
Steve

Your condescending reference to some of us as "legal experts" is somewhat insulting. If everyone would spend their OWN time reading the FAQs on the ATF website, these frequent questions would not come up. I'm darn sure not a "legal expert" but I can and do read things for myself. And, in fact, I DO know some of these answers better than SOME FFL holders do. It should be part of their job to know and FOLLOW the rules, as written. Some of them should read the FAQs, as well.

I don't agree that making up your own rules is acceptable. It is likely an effort to extract more money out of their customers and should not be tolerated by their customers. Most FFL holders are honest and follow the guidelines just fine, without "risking their livelihood". All of them should.

Jim,

I agree 100%. I've observed an FFL audit and can understand the concerns. There again making up your own requirements for documents that the audit does not address accomplishes nothing.

It's the same thing when trying to mail a gun by UPS, FEDX or USPS. Too many people don't know the rules so they ad lib something. That in turn screws it up for the next guy and then proliferates into a cluster. As and example my buddy can't mail any guns from his local PO. I can mail anything (within the confines of the law)from mine.

Regards,
Ken

Take you BATFE regulation manual to the gunshop and tell 'em how they are supposed to do it, but watch the insults...
Best of luck on all your future transfers!
Steve

Not really necessary to go to the gunshop to get insulted. We can get that here!

Late to this party/event, but will add my 2cents. First off, I'm not a dealer, but I was one. Gave it up because frankly it got to be too much of a pain. Now use a couple of local guys and they charge $35.00 for the transfer. Probably will get a C&R license down the road, because I buy nothing less then 50 years old because that's what I like. Anyway, back to case in point.

I sell quite a few guns via Gunbroker. I always state that I'm not a dealer and to make sure the dealer being used on their end has no problems with taking guns from a non-dealer. That said, once a gun is sold I will find out who their dealer is and contact them, obtain their email address and send them a digital copy of my driver's license so they can use it to log the gun into their books. Is it required, no. Does it make sense, yes in my opinion. Frankly, it just closes the loop in my mind. What it also tells that transferring dealer is I'm on the up and up.

PS. For FWIW, when I purchase a Gun, I also send the seller a digital copy of my dealer's FFL whose handling the transfer on my end. That seems to work pretty well. Even now, I run into some dealers who won't take a Fax or digital copy of my dealers FFL. In that case we resort to snail mail and just send them a signed copy. I don't try to fight with dealers because I will lose. I just accept that things aren't always easy and move on. Not worth losing any sleep about it.