Raimey, what it is? - The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com

Double rifle made for Sosnovsky in Warsaw. This is second rifle with straight grip made for Sosnovsky, the first rifle I saw made by Defourny-Sevrin.
There is two diamond marks with something inside I can't recognize. Ring any bells?

http://s52.radikal.ru/i135/1007/a6/ad6edcf29252.jpg

I don't know, but I've always wondered about those European guns with their 25 stampings they put on barrels.

It's like "We are very concerned about barrels strength, so we will require they all be pressure tested. Then, we will put a bunch of stampings on the metal to help weaken it and cause possible problems."

Originally Posted By: GregSY

Then, we will put a bunch of stampings on the metal to help weaken it and cause possible problems."

You think stamps would weaken barrel strength? Intersting.
What I saw by my eyes second upper guide of wide ejectors, more accurately the hole along chambers for this guide weakens this area a lot. Similar holes in chambers for pins of Darne's do the same.
Engineering errors.

Geno:
The sound is like one big thud. I don't know to whom it might belong, but it is a forge mark that pairs with the "Krupp Stahl", Krupp Steel, stamp. Thanks for the pic and I'll add it to the list. I think the dual stamp is for a multiple effort on the example and it tracks compensation as well as liability. Maybe a tube maker who cottoned to oak leaves? A general consensus is that there were a couple of talley books, one for each craftsmen who added effort to an example and one for the gunmaker/contractor who got the order and subed the work out. So one of my questions for now is what was the frequency of the payment for services: 1 week, bi-weekly, once a month?

Early on there was some schools of thought that the stamps might question the integrity of the steel, but I think proof test proved otherwise. Besides the proofmarks, the other marks note the effort of individual craftsmen in the overall effort for the example. Sort of like a completed work-order on the gun. Now if we had the work order, we just might make some headway. And it may be that the paper work order was an aid to the overall contractor in keeping the talley.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Geno:
It may be the "K" in a rhombus, or rotated square, stamp. Hard to tell without some staring. Any idea of the Omega stamp?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

1933

1929

(not my translation...)
graphic art is from calendar about hunting "Kalendarz my¶liwski na 1929 rok"

translation:

Fabryka i sk³ad broni p. f. "J. Sosnowski w Warszawie" istnieje od roku 1861 i prowadzona jest od pocz±tku swego istnienia przez specjalistów rusznikarzy.

Factory and shop from weapons p. f. "J. Sosnowski in Warsaw" exists from year 1861 and driven is from beginning one's own existences by specialists of gunsmiths.

Obecny w³a¶ciciel Czes³aw Lisowski jest mistrzem Cechu Rusznikarskiego którego 35-cioletnia ci±g³o¶æ pracy fachowej w rusznikarstwie, daje mo¿no¶æ zastosowania w strzelbach najnowszych ulepszeñ i wynalazków z dziedziny rusznikarstwa, oraz udzielania rad i wskazówek przy wyborze broni,

Present owner Czes³aw Lisowski is master of guild gunsmiths of which 35-cioletnia continuity of professional work in gunsmith, gives possibility of use in guns latest improvements and of inventions from sphere gunsmith, and of giving glad and of advices at choice weapons

Strzelby znajduj±ce siê w sk³adzie broni p.f. "J. Sosnowski w Warszawie" pochodz± z pierwszorzêdnych fabryk, wykonane s± na specjalne zamówienia firmy, co jest zaznaczone na lufach (Fait pour la maison J. Sosnowski a Varsovie).

Guns being found in composition of shop from weapons p.f. "J. Sosnowski in Warsaw" originate from first-class factories, executed are on special orders of firm, what is marked on barrels ( Fait pour la maison J. Sosnowski a Varsovie).

Strzelby te precyzyjnie wykonane, poddawane s± specjalnym próbom, na co posiadaj± odpowiednie dokumenty, daj± zupe³n± gwarancje doskona³o¶ci strza³u i d³ugoletniej wytrzyma³o¶ci.

Guns these precyzyjnie executed, surrendered {subjected} are to special tests {attempts}, on what possess suitable documents, give complete guarantees of excellence of shot and of long standing endurances.

Firma "J. Sosnowski w Warszawie" w zupe³no¶ci gwarantuje za ka¿d± sprzedan± broñ na ¿±danie do³±cza gwarancje pi¶mienn±.

The firm "J. Sosnowski in Warsaw" in wholenesses warrants too every sold weapons on demand adds guarantees literate.

Pete

Interesting, Peter. Does he admit that he sources?

Geno:
Are the full monty of German proofs on the DR? Does the DR date to the range Peter supplied? Any indication it passed thru the Suhl or Zella-Mehlis proofhouse, or other German?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Something to keep in mind when dealing with posters who don't live in our culture and who may not be aware of our idioms etc. Raimey, do you think that Geno knows what you mean by your "full monty" expression? If he does then I'm very impressed!
Until recently I worked for Halliburton in an office full of people from all over the world, a really great bunch of people I might add. However, trying to tell a joke or using slang terms would invariably earn you raised eye brows and questioning looks. And these were people who had lived in the US for some time and who could speak English very well.
I'm just trying to help, enough said.
Steve

Steve, I know what The Full Monty means.
By other words in this context it means 'the full set of German proof marks'

Geno,
I'm very impressed! Here's a more detailed definition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Full_Monty_(phrase). I think I've gone off track far enough, I just felt that this was a good time to remind everyone that this board truly does have an international audience.
Steve

Steve:

Thanks for the reminder. I think I'm very aware of the global audience but I've read a good bit of what Geno has published and usually I closely read his posts and even though he may not have command of the English language, he goes to extended efforts to sift thru our chatter here. He's one I'd take some liberties on phrases/colloquialisms and I'm sure if he didn't understand he'd get on my case and ask for a revision.

Here's a Wilcke combo from the same period with what I'd guess to be similar stamps(for now I think the steel type stamp and the forge mark are paired):

I've revisited the "EH/K?" stamp for some time and I'm perplexed as to what it is for now. But I would expect to see a similar set of initials on the DR in question.

Another "EH/K" stamp.

Lovely, just lovely sideplates. I'd guess it to have been made in the post 1912 to pre-1923 period in Suhl. I'd look toward a maker in Suhl who's serial number in the 20k range post 1912. I'll look. The side frame reinforcement might be a key.

And there isn't an Omega on the tube. I was looking at a sidewise "G" from the "Eagle" "Crown" over "G".

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

G with crown has to be on tubes.
Re. lovely plates, I'd say its Belgian style plates, not German, but it was made for Sosnovski...
That's all photos I can show at the moment, maybe later will be more.

If it is EK, then that is a Belgium trademark registered to Pieper. If it is EH, I have no clue.

Pete

I go a little further and say the plates were of Bohemian flare. Yeah, the "G" has to be there and I'd guess the tubes were proofed independent prior to assembly. Can't wait for more.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here's a clamshell DR with the initials "DH" near the forend lug with a similar "Krupp Stah" stamp and a pair of rhombus.

Wilcke Combo

Geno's puzzle
Maybe the fella had a bigger hammer with which to strike the die with in Geno's puzzle.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Otto Seelig/Bartles combo with similar rhombus stamp.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It appears that GGCA( www.germanguns.com , http://www.germanguns.com/journals.html ) is in the process of assembling info on German gunmakers to address the mound of inquiries: see R019 here: http://www.germanguns.com/books.html . I think R019 is in the process of being updated or has been updated. You might want to check on the update before purchase.

And for those who aren't members, join and support the effort.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Similar mark to the mark in question on a 45-70 Greifeldt clamshell DR. Anyone other than me have an interest in clamshells? If so I'll begin a thread. I'm looking for info on a firearms merchant named Winiecki of Pozan.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I really didn't want to start another thread and considering who started this one, I thought I'd just add to it.

It would seem that there were at least a couple of Waffenh�ndler Seeligs as a Seelig is listed from the early 1860s on possibly to now. During the very early 1900s up till WWI, target competition winner listings will have a "Seelig, Weimar" and I assume that to be the Seelig we are chasing. During the same time period, around 1907/1908 Otto Seelig filed for DRMG - Gebrauchsmuster 310654 "Vermittels Federn und Stellstift durch einen Druckhebel automatisch bet�tigter erh�hbarer Kolbenteil an Gewehren Otto Seelig - Wiesbaden, Grosse Burgstra�e 6", where he collaborated with some cat named Waffenmeister Stricker of Gro�- Lichterfelde. I think it was similar to the Sauer design below:

Verstellbare Kolbenbacke f�r Fernrohrb�chsen von JP Sauer & Sohn

As Axel E. notes he peddled target pistols as well as rifles and must have been quite the shot himself. He didn't have time to make weapons as he was competing and selling his wares in the same event.

He is also listed as some ordinary member of the Nassau?(Nassauischen) Nature group during this period. But as with all HofB�chsenmachers, it seems that he acquired his title much earlier in the 1860s as a Seelig is found in a Royal Prussian Order list to be sourced I assume. If this is the same Seelig, his title was dubbed from the court centered around the beim 2. Westf�lisches Husaren Regiment Nr. 11, http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/2._West...egiment_Nr._11 , in 1862/1863 or possibly a bit earlier. He did peddle upper rung sporting weapons using the vague Westf�lisches Husaren Regiment, which I consider to be just fluff, by souring the very talented pool of craftsmen in Suhl and the Zella Sankt Blasii-Mehlis area. He also peddled DRs with the very Robust actions like Ideal, etc.

I'll see if I can find a few of the DRs but I am curious which Zella-Mehlis mechanic used the Fleur de Lis or extended Lily.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=152194&page=1

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Seeing Geno's name on the start of this post gave me a bit of a start.

Miss him a lot!

Likewise.

Yeah, same thing here, was thinking of him while going through the thread. Also, Tony, another huge loss.

Think of him every time I sign on.........

Robert Ziegler & Czeslaw Lisowski were at the very least crossing sourcing if not best of friends or related. Czeslaw Lisowski was born in the mid to late 1870s(1876?) and died in 1938 in Warsaw. Some time after WWI he was co-owner of J. Sosnowski, which was founded by Jan Jakub Sosnowski, mistrz rusznikarski - master gunsmith & possibly head of the guild at some point, was born in 1827 in Swisloczu and died in Warsaw in 1905. He partnered with Jan Jachimek(circa 1818 in Prague to 1883 Warsaw) under the shingle Jachimek & Sosnowski. Jan Jachimek had been a partner in Koczi & Jachimek with Antoni Koczi(Kotzi). Getting back to J. Sosnowski, he had a son named Bronislaw Sosnowski who was born in 1863 in Warsaw and died in 1942.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=299071&#Post299071
cross ref to Lebeau - Oourally thread.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse