Hi all, I'm wondering if someone can shed any light on what SLE's Atkin made circa 1897-1900. Did he use model designations or Best, 2d Quality, etc on his guns (again SLE's)?

Also, how did his guns in general stack up against other makers during this period?

Thanks so much!

Greg

Greg, a high % of his production are best work guns. He had the same designs, materials, and craft skills to work with as did the other makers. Therefore, his bests are as good as others' bests; neither better nor poorer, but simply as good as. Best work is best work regardless of the brand name on the gun. 2nd quality is 2nd quality regardless of the brand name. Trying to associate quality with brand name is a dead end as all makers with the possible exception of Boss sold several levels of quality with their brand names on them all.

Hi Don and Thanks!! Excellent points and well said. From your research is there anyway to tell what grade a gun maybe without contacting and obtaining a letter/certificate from the maker or the current holder of the Goodwill and records?

Thanks again!!

Greg

Do you have any pics? They may help.

I don't know if Atkin had a name for his second quality guns, or if he marked them any way.

There may be a grade marked on the action, maybe on the flats or the breech face, perhaps with a B or a 2.

There may be a name on the bottom of the action. Some maker's put grade-names there.

These are just guesses, though.

Do you know when it was made? Is it a spring-opener (like a Purdey), or a standard gun (like a Holland)?

OWD

Hi Gregg, thanks for the tips. I'm doing research right now, just trying to find out some info that not only applies to this maker, but others as well.

Thanks again!!!

Greg

Greg, there is no standardized way to tell grades. Various makers used various systems at various times. I suggest a study of H&H as they seem to have the most relatively clear cut grades. Basically, you need to learn to recognize gun craftsmanship such as parts fit and finish, engraving coverage and quality, and wood quality. The UK guns are usually very straight forward in matching the base craftsmanship, engraving and wood to the quality. Note that the Original Quality grade (OQ) determined the price and the price set the amount and price of labor that could go into the gun. Best work guns were made by craftsmen capable of best work and paid enough to do it.

Hi Don, thanks again, that's pretty much my thoughts also, just was wondering if some makers (like you said H&H) did mark their guns.

Well so much for this this subject!!

Thanks again!!

Greg

This is from the IGC:

Henry Atkin was born in 1833 in Chelsea, London. He was the eldest of the three sons of Charles Atkin (b.1800 in Louth, Lincolnshire) and Sarah Elizabeth (b.1801 in Boston, Lincolnshire).
Charles Atkin had worked for James Purdey from 1814, when Purdey was first established. Charles and Sarah were recorded in the 1851 census living at 3 Oriel Place, Chelsea. Living with them were Sarah (b.1827), Clara (b.1829), Isabella (b.1831), Harry (Henry), Frances (b.1836), Richard (b.1837), and Charles (b.1839). Sarah was born in Louth, Clara in Pimlico, all the other children were born in Chelsea. Charles described himself as a stocker and finisher but, unlike other gunmakers apart from Forsyth, Purdey stockers were responsible for much of the metalwork which had to be done prior to stocking.

In the 1861 census Charles and Sarah were still living at 3 Oriel Place, but only Richard was living with them, he was described as a gunmaker (d.1886 aged 47). Sarah died on 11 November 1870 and was buried in Brompton cemetary. Charles moved to 33 St John's Hill Grove, Clapham Junction, but later moved to live in lodgings at 10 King Street, Chelsea, where he was recorded in the 1871 census; he died on 15 March 1879 and was buried in the same grave as Sarah.

Henry was apprenticed to his father at James Purdey in 1848, there is no record of his apprenticeship but his initials have been found on guns. He finished his apprenticeship in 1855 and on 27 May 1857 he married Frances Nodes (b.1835 in Harlow, Essex), at that time they lived in Cambridge Street, Pimlico. Henry and Frances were recorded in the 1861 census living at 43 Upper Manor Street, Kings Road, Chelsea. Henry described himself as a gunmaker. No children were recorded in this or any subsequent census.

It has been reported that Henry worked for Purdey until 1865 and then worked for Moore & Grey (William Moore & Co) at 43 Old Bond Street until 1875. It has also been reported that in 1862 Henry could have been an outworker at 43 Upper Manor Street, Chelsea. Henry later claimed to have worked for Purdey for ten years and Moore & Grey for ten years, and it seems likely that he worked for Purdey until 1865, possibly as an outworker from 1855, and then as an outworker primarily for Moore & Grey until 1875.

In the 1871 census Henry and Elizabeth were recorded living at 3 Glebe Place, Chelsea. Henry described himself as a gunmaker, all branches except barrels and locks, which strongly suggests he worked for the trade.

As far as we know, Henry never stated the date that he established his business, but an indication of this was an advertisement in 1875 recorded the fact that Henry Atkin set up his own business at 18 Oxenden Street, Haymarket in that year, but he was first recorded in the street directories only in 1877. In the early 1880s Henry employed outworkers such as Thomas Southgate, Thomas Perkes, Phillipson, John Robertson and E C Hodges.

In 1890 Henry moved to 2 Jermyn Street. From about this time his outworkers included Allport and Harper, and case makers Nielson and Bryants. In 1894 Lionel Hodges stripped and finished a gun for the firm.

In the 1891 and 1901 censused Henry and Frances were recorded still living at 3 Glebe Place.

From 1895 any single trigger guns ordered were fitted with John Robertson's 1894 patent single trigger. The firm appears to have used John Robertson for all their actions and the Squires family for all their barrels. From about this time gun fitting was done at London Sporting Park.

In 1904 Frances Atkin died, and the firm became a limited company, Henry Atkin Ltd. The directors were Henry Atkin and Thomas Albert Appleton, who was also the company secretary. Henry's nephew, Charles Frederick Hinton, a commercial traveller, later became a director. The shareholders were Henry, Leila Isabella Hinton (daughter of the late Isabella Hinton, and Charles Frederick's sister), Charles Frederick Hinton, Thomas Albert Appleton, Huntington Evans Broad (chartered accountant), Herbert William Fordham (clerk), and Walter Wellington Bryan (clerk).

In 1905 the company moved to 41 Jermyn Street because 2 Jermyn Street was to be demolished to make way for the building of Piccadilly Circus underground railway station.

By this time, Henry Atkin owned several properties in London, but in 1906 moved to Ashtead in Surrey where C F Hinton and his wife lived. In 1906 he fell ill, he died in March 1907 and C F Hinton became managing director.

It is noteworthy that Henry Atkin registered no patents, he sold only "best" guns using the best patents available at the time. However, from about 1908 the company started to sell lower quality guns which were probably made for them in Birmingham. From 1911 the company used the West London Shooting Ground.

In 1912 C F Hinton died, and in 1913 Lionel Hodges joined Thomas Appleton on the board of directors. It appears that Lionel had been using workshop space at 41 Jermyn Street both for making Atkin guns and for repairing guns.

In 1918 the company moved to 88 Jermyn Street, formerly Hussey's premises.

Lionel Hodges's son, Arthur Edwin, had been apprenticed to his father as a stocker, he joined Henry Atkin after World War I and became a director of the company in 1930.

In the 1920s if not before, the company's American agents were Von Lengerke & Detmold of New York.

In 1930 Thomas Appleton retired and Harry Goodwin became company secretary. Frederick John Robert Dennison became a director of the company.

In 1938 the company opened a shooting ground at Northolt.

In 1940 Lionel retired, he died in 1941. Arthur Edwin Hodges became managing director on his father's retirement, he became the majority shareholder in Henry Atkin Ltd in 1942. In 1941 Arthur's unmarried daughter, Kathleen, became a director of the firm as did Harry Goodwin. Frederick Dennison resigned in about 1949.

In 1952 the company moved to smaller premises at 27a St James's Street. In the same year Harry Goodwin died, he was replaced as company secretary by Arthur Hodges wife, Winifred Mary. At about this time Lionel Dudley Morse was a shareholder.

In March 1956 Henry Atkin Ltd took over the business of Charles Hellis & Sons from Stuart Hellis.

On 1 April 1960 the businesses of Henry Atkin Ltd and Stephen Grant & Joseph Lang Ltd were merged and Henry Atkin Ltd moved to 7 Bury Street, St James's (see Stephen Grant). On 21 April Stephen Grant & Joseph Lang Ltd changed its name to Atkin, Grant & Lang Ltd, but Henry Atkin Ltd continued as a non-trading company with Arthur Hodges remaining as managing director. The joint managing directors of Atkin Grant & Lang Ltd were Roy (W R H) Robson and Arthur Hodges.

The merger was not entirely successful because Henry was a practical gunmaker,and Roy was a businessman. In 1962 Arthur came close to selling his and his family's shares, in early 1962 he and his family sold out to Atkin Grant & Lang Ltd retaining only one share each in Henry Atkin Ltd.

In 1963 the directors of Churchill (Gunmakers) Ltd knew that their premises were due to be demolished by the enlargement of Leicester Square, and that they needed new retail and workshop premises. Their chairman and major shareholder, Sam Cummings, also did not want to invest in retail sporting gun sales, he wanted to pull out of the retail side of the other company he owned Cogswell & Harrison, and he wanted to concentrate on his Interarms UK Ltd manufacturing business. The situation at Atkin Grant & Lang Ltd was that they needed access to a reliable and inexpensive trade maker who could make inexpensive guns for them and S Wright & Sons, an interarms associated company, seemed to be the ideal choice. The merger took place, but in some respects the companies continued to trade separately. Arthur Hodges and W R H Robson were joint managing directors.

In December 1964 Arthur Hodges retired (he died in 1983) and Colonel Stone and his wife resigned from the board of Atkin Grant & Lang Ltd. The board of Atkin Grant & Lang then comprised Roy Robson, Betty Brown, Alan Lawrie, Stuart Murray, Leonard Pearce, Tom Littlewood, and J A H Hortin. Murray, Pearce, Littlewood and Hortin were also directors of Churchill (Gunmakers) Ltd.

For the later history of Henry Atkin see E J Churchill. See also E C Hodges and other Hodges in London; see also http://www.roberthodges.co.uk.

Members with a particular interest in Atkin guns will find more details of the history of the business in Don Masters' book "Atkin, Grant & Lang" (Safari Press Inc ISBN 1-57157-304-6) which is highly recommended.

Pete

Hi Pete and many thanks!!! The info you provided sure helped out a lot and was also very informative!!! Many thanks!

All the best!

Greg

Greg,

It just backs up what Don had already stated. An Atkin could be a best or another Birmingham wonder. It is the craftmanship more than the name. Put the 2 together you have an expensive gun.

Pete

Hi, here are some pics of the gun in question. The gun is sleeved, but the seams have been engraved over (like a wedding band)it also has disk strikers and an articulated front trigger.

Any comments on what you think would be appreciated.

Thanks!!

Greg

Greg,

Atkin, Grant & Lang is still in business. Here's their website http://www.atkingrantandlang.co.uk/ . Ken Duglan may have the records of when your gun was built - he was able to find the record of my Joseph Lang which was built in 1866 including the dimensions and name of the orignal purchaser. I'm pretty sure that Ken will be at the Southern SxS in Sanford NC next weekend and will return to England shortly after. It's always great to look at his new and reconditioned Atkin, Grants and Langs and I will be be drooling next weekend.

Greg, ah......maybe just one comment here, ah, can't you see for yourself that this gun just reeks with quality!!!
I hope you get it and what happened with the Coggie???

Hi, well the Coggy was off face (not much) and there were a couple of gaps between the wood and metal on the horns.

I will say that Kirby is up front with his guns, an honest man and great to deal with.

Thanks again!!!!

All the best!

Greg

That's to bad sounds like a real butcher got a hold of that Coggie.

Greg, based on the photos, I'd say it is a best work gunOriginal Quality grade one (OQ1)). The locks 8 or 9 pin (depending on whether you count the tumbler or not), the engraving is over 75% coverage and looks like high quality, the wood is good (but may be a restock), and the fit and finish look up to best work standards. Some will argue that the flat back is not a best work gun. I'll concede that the later "London best gun" was stocked to the fences. However, IMO, many of the earlier flatbacks are best work guns, they simply were before a style change.

My guess is that you have a very fine gun. Atkin's built guns for smove real VIP's; Gough Thomas went there for his 'Optimum gun."

Hi Don and thanks. I depend on your keen judgement and extensive knowledge. I apprecaite it! I've seen pics of #2 gun, the stock has almost identical figure and pattern, so if it were a restock (which I don't know)then the owner had the good luck to find some good blanks to restock both guns.

Your observation on stocked to the fences is interesting. This gun was made in 1898, so perhaps this predates the "Stocked to the fences" only for Best Gun qualification.

FWIW, the gun also has disk set strikers and an articulated trigger.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks again for the kind words!

Greg

It is always hard to tell what is shadow or discoloration of wood in photos, yet readily apparent when the gun is in-hand. The finish wear to the gun is consistant with heavy use, but no abuse. It is entirely possible, but uncommon, that the guns were restocked with a fletch (matching stock blanks). In any event, the wood quality appears to be a good match with the finish and engraving. '98 is not at all too late for a best work flat back. STTF was "invented" early, but did not become fashino until the late '90's to early '00's. Disc set strikers were done, but not always at the time your gun was built. Articulated front trigger is more of a Continental/USA feature. Do you have any idea when your gun came to the USA? Could it have been built for an American?

Hi Don, No I don't when she came over. As best I can recall the SN is 993 or close to that. According to Brown's book SN c1100 began in 1899, so I'm guessing the gun was made 1896 to maybe 1898 (just a guess here).

I plan on submitting the SN when I get her to AG&L to get all the details, if they have them.

Thanks again for all the great help and info......can always count on you!

All the best!

Greg

Love those fences! Very nice.

OWD

Greg,

According to Don Masters in his book "Atkin, Grant & Lang" SN 953 was 1896 and 1,242 was 1899 so if your SN is 993 then 1897 or 1898 is probably close to the actual date of completion.

Ken Duglan at AGL may well have the order book for that time period.

Hi all and thanks for all the info!! Very informative and helpful.

I do plan on requesting a letter from AG&L on her. 25 pounds is a small price to pay to find a bit of gun history.

Again, thanks all!

Greg

If this helps to date your gun? My Henry Atkins sle is sn#895, the original barrels and rib are marked 2 Jermyn St London. According to Boothroyd, Henry Atkins was at this address from 1895 until he moved to 88 Jerymn Street in 1897.This gun does not have bushed firing pins or articulated front trigger. The locks are Stanton as marked,the barrels are marked H.A.The barrels are 30 inches.And as was common in these years, the gun was not stocked to the fences. Bob PS great looking gun, I had been following it for some time at Kirby's site.