Hello

I have an inherited Francotte s x s hammer shotgun
it is marked Francotte Paris France with a serial # of 8691 R

Does anyone have any info for me i am having a hard time determining the age, i know my father bought it in 1977.

thank you

Jeff, the approximate dates of production are listed on this site at http://www.doublegunshop.com/dgsnos2.htm . According to the list, your gun was probably made in 1935.

Welcome to the board! Hope you stick around.

the serial # is four digits though. 8691R
looks older than that, but what do i know, not much

Any pictures of her Jeff?
Thats a wierd serial#
Does it have the Crown with AF trade mark?..some close up shots of the stampings on both flats would help....I'm a sucker for nice Francottes...not seen many HammerGuns...is she pretty????
cheers
Franc

let me figure out how to upload pic to this site


one side says Paris France cheek side says A. Francotte

serial # and Paris France between the barrels

stock has painted on checkering.

I openup the action and inside the stock has 5581 on it the barrels have af and a crown and another mark which might have a star in it. It has several other marks and numbers

does this help? is the serial# the one inside or on the top of the barrels?

Here are some pics thank you

Try copying and pasting the image code

Crownless ELG indicates an old gun from before 1894. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be from the 1870s.
Kind regards,
Jani

You have 2 threads going about the same gun. Here is what I posted on the other thread.

Francotte has been around since 1810. Usually with a maker's mark it is possible it date the registration, however, they were around so long, it is pointless in this case.

Between 1853-1877 a Crown over any letter would indicate the controller of proof. The barrels were black powder proofed. The action has a perron which was the old proof of breeching of system mark.

It is an interesting side lever gun. I would imagine that it should clean up very well. I am not sure when they stopped selling side lever guns.

Pete

Is it a left-handed gun? It looks to have rebounding hammers as well as a pinned forend. And the chequering you mention is either worn smooth or has become filled.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

ummmm...

Jeff, I am not sure what else to say to your question. The gun looks like it was made in the early 1870s and appears to come from a Paris office Francotte must have had. A Paris office for out of France gun makers was not at all uncommon. Lots of Belgian, British, etc companies established sales outlets in Paris.

if i decide to sell it what is a good asking price?

Anyone have any information about this gun?

Raimey, PeteM
When did Francotte start putting the ..."A Francotte , maker % Patentee, Liege, Belgium." on the lock (or Side plates???
I like to see these words on an A F, Guns I have seen without this,
do not seem up to par somehow.
cheers
franc

Franc,

I wish I could answer your question. As to "up to par". The firm was around for so very long. They built guns to meet price points just like any other maker.

Pete

franc:
I'll make a stab at it since you asked. I haven't found the patent but it seems that possibly in the early 1870s Auguste Francotte designed a underlug lock-up with the sidelever. I don't know that he had a satellite office in Paris but Auguste Francotte may have had an agent there like with J. Piddington in England. Lefaucheux and Auguste Francotte were pen pals at the very least and it seems that like Bastin, Francotte was developing lockup systems based, sometimes loosely, on Casmir Lefaucheux's design( interesting Fox reference - 1904 - http://books.google.com/books?id=5o4MAAA...gun&f=false . It appears that Benjamin Kittredge & Company of Cincinnati, Ohio imported similar longarms and A&F may have also but I don't recall exactly when A&F began importing, but I'll look. My opinion is that the number on the top rib is some sort of Brevete number attributing the patent to Auguste Francotte. So if he may the longarm why would he advertise the lockup as his??? It may have been that the lockup system patent was in France and maybe it was cheaper to stamp the longarm with Paris as it was going to be imported to the U.S. of A. There was some reason for a Belgian maker to send his price point arms, or components, to France and then on to the U.S. of A. All of the ones I've seen had "Patent" stamped on them instead of Brevete.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Justus Von Lengerke began importing Francotte shotguns in 1889. That's why the special model called the 'Jubilee' was imported in 1939 - in honor of the 50th jubilee of VL&D and A&F importing Francottes. The Blue Book implies that all of the numbered models are Jubilee models - that's wrong. The Jubilee was a separate model that cost just a bit more than the Knockabout.

Thanks for the info Mr. Beach. To get a handle on the overall picture, I'd say that an understanding of France's world standing would be in order. In retrospect, I should have paid more attention to World History in obtaining a well rounded education. But at the beginning of the 19th century to the mid-point, France experienced a very prosperous period. France had control of it's banking system and I think Mexico leaned heavily on France for funds which lead to France establishing a government, which lead to a coup; hence. Cinco de Mayo. French goods were sought after world wide and France was on par with Britian, or just behind in exporting goods. I think it was in 1884 that the Statue of Liberty was delivered to the U.S. of A. Central American seems to have been a big importer of French goods. Things from Paris were in vogue and Paris was the center of fashion. So much like the gunmakers having a shop in Vienna post 1867, why not have a retail shop or agent in Paris. France didn't totally embrace mechanization and was more concerned with quality than quantity. As France was on the down-slope, Belgium was embracing mechanization, as well as focused on production numbers, as well as really beginning to spool-up. In order for Auguste Francotte to get his name out there, especially if he was attempting to corner a piece of the American market, why not have a retail outlet in Paris as Americans were consuming a lot of French goods. But the Franco-Prussian War, which all but stopped the importation of goods into the U.S. A. like canned sardines for instance, revealed France's position in the world and that industrial might was the future. So by the 1880s a direct sourcing link was made to Belgium from the U.S. of A., which A&F & VL & D being such examples. All the above seems to pair well with the marks on the Auguste Francotte Paris examples in that they seem to be from the 1870 - 1877 period.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Franc,

I did some digging. Here is an 1898 ad for Francotte that says, "Patentees and Manufacturers of the "Martini Francotte""



I am not sure of how many patents the firm held. I do know for sure that they filed for the following.
1870 extractors
1877 revolvers
1878 mauser
1890 martini variations


The 1870 patent was heavily copied in England. This resulted in Francotte filing all patents in Belgium and England. Francotte was heavily involved in the production of the Martini action. I believe, but can not currently document, that Francotte held patents not only for the mechanism but also the bayonet.

"Societe pour les Armes de Guerre - Society for Arms of War" also known as "Societe des Anglais - English Society". These consisted of the following firms; Ancion, Renkin, Pirlot & Francotte - 150,000 rifles for the British government, 1854-1863. Their maxim was "Let us go boldly along the road opened to us by mechanization" as originally stated by L. Falisse in his 1864 work on mechanization of the Liege arms industry.

Note: It was common for the Belgians to use the word Societe in place of Corporation as we use it today.

In the Museum of Military History in Brussels, there is a huge display of how military barrels were manufactured. The stated out put is staggering. The Liege makers were procurring military contracts from every nation. In 1870, the Pope was sent a shipment of arms, "Donated by the Catholics of Belgium" at the same time on the docks in Antwerp were cases of guns marked "Viva Garibaldi". Like the British ( I have seen the sales records from Birmingham of sales to both sides during the American civil war), their only concern was making a sale.

If we think their primary business was sporting arms, we are mistaken. Their primary business was making fire arms. This is true of Francotte and many others.

Pete

Peter, I think you have made a very valid point in that sporting arms production was a very small part of overall production. Francotte & Associates aggressively pursued the largest weapons contracts available and appear to have sought to be gunmaker's to the armies of the world. Le Petit Syndicat of Ancion & Company, Dresse-Laloux & Company, Auguste Francotte, Prilot Fresart and possibly others was formed to meet the needs of military weapons contracts. Then Le Grand Syndicat was formed of the members of the Petit Syndicat along with Benthin, Beurer, P. Drissen, Falisse, Gulikers, E. Malherbe, Mordant, Brothers Renkin & la Societe Liegoise in 1870 in an attempt to meet the needs of the Franco-Prussian War with a slogan of sorts that no contract was too large. But the venture was short lived and I think it dissolved in 1876. Possibly at this time Auguste Francotte realized that he need to spread his umbrella to include sporting arms sales to the U.S. of A. developing a connection for higher rung examples.

Anyone know if Conn. Shotgun owns Auguste Francotte or the trademark?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Remember that Fabrique National was formed to fulfil the Russian Nagant contract. Also, during WWI the German occupation forces quickly took control of Belgian gun factories to produce badly needed parts. The Belgian factories did experience a "slow down" for a time. It seems some workers would take racks of guns and move them around the factory so the German inspectors kept counting the same rack over and over. Eventually, they wised up.

Pete