Are there any vintage SxS trap guns with a reputation as being safe, fun and reliable for a trap shooter on a budget?

What kind of budget?
What general flavour of gun - hammer / hammerless, English/US/European, capable of digesting modern factory nitro loads or happy to handload the glorious stinky, noisy stuff?
RG

Budget under $1,000.

Off the shelf 2 3/4 inch 12 gauge shells. Standard pressure.

Want U.S. made.

Winchester 21 would fit the bill but I do not want to pay for collectability at this time.

I get great enjoyment out of my Remington 31 TC pump and was wondering if there are any comparable sxs trap guns.

Safety and reliability would be biggest factors.

Lou

The 'trap' SxS guns I've seen have the trap type rib and a high comb. Even the vintage guns. LC Smith made quite a few. But they're pricey. Probably start at double your $1000. I just shoot a F/F or M/F vintage SxS and got used to not seeing the bird on straight aways. You'll need to stay away from pre WWI manufactured dates to shoot todays 'budget ammunition' offerings I would suggest.

Any thoughts on a Stevens 311?

I think we have to differentiate between "Vintage Trap Sxs" and a "Vintage double to shoot trap with". Vintage guns made as trap guns tend to be spendy, good vintage doubles to shoot trap with dont have to be. I just sold two, one I wish I'd kept, and Amarillo Mike wished he'd bought. They were both "Western Field" Ithacas, one 32 and one 30 inch bbls. The 32 had ejectors and was a dandy trap gun. I sold them for 400 and 425. If I have a chance to buy back the ejector gun, I'm gonna do it. Sold it to my hunting partner, our Lutheran Minister...A Stevens would work fine, and give you longevity and lots of fun...Enjoy

You should also be able to find a nice Ithaca NID within that budget. Also the Ithaca built Lefever Nitro Special.
LD; Were those Western Fields the NS sold by Western Auto? I know that Ithace built a version of the NS on a mallable iron cast frame rather than the forged steel one of the NS which they called the Western Arms.

If your looking for a vintage sxs with "modern" dim's for a trap gun, your probably not going to find one. All of the vintage trap guns that I have shot have dim's closer to current field gun spec's, even those with ribs and Monte's. There probably are exceptions, I've just not seen any.

A.H. Fox Sterlingworth, Utica made

Brian probably recommended "Utica made" because they're more likely to have higher dims and maybe 2 3/4" chambers.

IMO, it's a slam dunk. No better opportunity/value exists than a Fox Sterlingworth:

Tens of thousands were made in 12ga. The most common configuration would likely have 30" barrels, choked IM/Full and weigh 7 1/4-7 3/4 lb. The can still be found with honest cosmetic wear and mechanically virtually as new for < $1,000.

Add one of these Beartooth comb risers for $25 and you can shoot any game you like. My 12ga Fox is stocked for sporting clays, but I slip on one of these with a 1/8" insert and shoot bunker trap as well as I do with my O/U. Not only do they give you a custom fit, the soft comb is a real blessing to shooting comfort. It's possible to shift the inserts over to avoid altering the cast.



The only issue, which would apply to any SxS, is the lack of a cheap practice load that won't loosen your fillings. If I had to shoot factories, it would be a Remington promo 1 ounce, but even they are nasty. I prefer a 7/8 ounce reload for $3/box. Do that, and you can ignore the chamber length. Pessure is really of no concern since it's self-limiting in a way. You'll want to keep the velocity down so it doesn't pound the snot out of you; the side beneift is that it won't be pounding the old stock either. If it's gentle on the shoulder, it'll be gentle on the gun too, whether the pressure is 6K or 10K.

A Browning BSS can handle modern loads, is very reliable and a 12 gauge is in your price range.

Lou, you have a Model 31 and you're looking for another gun...why???
You already have one of the best if not the best hand finished pumps ever built.
To get the same quality of that Model 31 in a SxS with the same sweet handling characteristics you would probably have to spend more than $1,000 bucks.

If you want a vintage toughie, get a Nitro Special with 30" tubes in 12 ga. There are tons of them out there and Smoke % Gun shop in Waukegan recently sold a mint new 12 bore as described for around $700. You can bet it'll be shooting well into the future as they seem to be unbreakable. Chopperlump

These are the two Ithacas I mentioned...Either would have done a good job..The ejector gun was a smasher for me...Dunno what the frames were made of

What make and model is the "nitro special"

Mike Campbell is right on about the 7/8oz. loads. They will break targets easily at the 16-yard line and beyond. The Sterlingworth is a great suggestion. I would also keep an eye open for an NID.

Looks like the guns at the high end of my range would be an NID, a Sterlingworth or a Lefever Nitro.

If I went for a more recent Ithaca or Stevens, what years and models have a reputation for reliability?

As to why I would want something in addition to my 31 TC -- Just because!

My budget SXS trap gun is a 1925 era N.R. Davis HyPower. Marketed a a duck gun this old girl weighs in at 8 lbs, has 30" F+F barrels and 3" chambers designed for the then new 3" Winchester Express loads (pre - 3" magnum).
It's built like a tank, has decent dimensions 14" l.o.p. w/ 2 1/2" d.o.h. Have a Jostam pad for it when i get 'round to it.

Le Fever is the make, and Nitro Special is the model. I have a 12, fun to shoot. Pretty common, usually going around $350 and up, depending on condition.

Westernfield would have been sold by Wards. One of the Ithaca Westernfields sold on GB recently for about $425 I believe. I did give two or three looks to maybe go with my Westernfield/Miroku.

Western Auto guns went by name Revelation as well as their ammo, I believe.

Patriot;
You are absolutely correct, I got my "Brand" names crossed up there. Do you know though if the Western Field was the NS or Western Arms version. The Western Arms gun with their mallable frames seem to hold up well, but for use as a trap gun I would personally much prefer the forged steel frame.

I have a beretta postwar hammergun in f/f [not for sale],
which behaves absolutely sick at 16yds,
["sick" meaning devilishly good],and at normal field dimensions
28"bbl,cheekpiece,factory plate,etc.
Trap was a live pigeon sport,so dont dismiss any live pigeon gun like the bernardelli las palomas,or bernardelli hammerguns.
OOPs sorry,your on a budget,hmmm,look into a husqvarna hammergun,they can be had for little,and little used,and original f/f chokes.You wont have high patterns with converted field guns unless you jack up the comb with a stick on comb riser of some sort they sell.

The Lefever Nitro Special was made by Ithaca, and is very similar to the two I sold. Good solid shooters....

Put in my vote for the Ithaca made Lefever Nitro Special. I shoot my 12 guage at trap with whatever 2 3/4 loads are on sale. Very solid, no frills gun. Well within the budget stated. Their advertising motto at the time was "Who ever saw a broken Lefever?".

Here's a Nitro Special that doesn't look all that bad.

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=133582297

Craigster:
Did you look at picture 10 on that Nitro Special?

This NID sems nice:
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=134082965

Do the Fox Sterlingworth's. NID's and Lefever's all have the splinter forend?

How about this Lefever Nitro?

Yes I did. It is indeed cracked, but I have repaired a lot worse. The flaw is why it's "buy it now" @ $269.

Don't forget there are lots of post war GDR German guns (Simson, Sauer, Merkel) in your price range.

If I were looking for a relatively inexpensive double trap gun, I'd look at the Charles Day for sale here. I have no interest in it, but it sounds like a nice gun.

The daly aint Vintage, aint budget....Buy the Nitro at 259.00 fix it and shoot it........

There were actually two American vintage budget double trap guns offered in the late 1920s and early 1930s. The Ithaca built Lefever Model 4 --



and the Iver Johnson SUPERTRAP --

If I didn't have one already, I'd be buyin' it.

Your question brings several thoughts to mind.
1. First, you do not need a "trap model" to be successful shooting trap. Some of the best trapshooters in the world, Dan Bonillas for one, prefer flat shooting guns.
2. As others have replied, a vintage gun, in a "trap model" will cost extra bucks over the same gun, in a field model.
3. A very old trap model will have the same safety concerns as a very old field model of the same gun.
4. The Daly mentioned is very likely an O/U, seller didn't specify.
5. A BSS would be an excellent choice. Strong, modern ammo compatible and reasonable. 12 ga BSSs usually are in the $1000 range, or less. The Bernardelli Hammer Gun listed in the for sale section would be another good choice. If you want to be modern ammo safe, you'll need to stay fairly new, say 50-60 years or so.

Taken literally, this statement declares it is unsafe to shoot new ammo in a gun made prior to 1950. I disagree.

Some people may be of the opinion it is ill-advised....take that for what it's worth. But if there's an argument why it is "unsafe" for me to continue my habit of shooting 2,000 rounds of Remington Nitro 27's annually in my 80 year old Fox, I'd like to hear it substantiated.

You're entitled to your opinion, whatever it is. Please show me the same courtesy. Bushmaster's question was which vintage guns are known to be safe with modern ammo? I shoot old guns all the time, too, using low pressure handloads. Which vintage guns are you willing to state are safe to shoot with modern ammo?

I didn't realize Homo Joe had kids.

Safe? well, Lessee, Nitro Special, Western Field Ithacas, Most Stevens, most Foxes, Win 21's, Large frame Parkers, Most Sauers...Gee, i cant think of anymore (unless I try) Speaking of Target loads of course...I shoot AA Lights all the time in my Lefevers...

I don't believe I denied it. I always offer that courtesy when it's stated as opinion. If it's stated as fact, I sometimes question (civily) its veracity. I try to attack the argument, or even the position, but not the individual.

"Which vintage guns are you willing to state are safe to shoot with modern ammo?"


I'll also give you my courteous opinion based on some facts...


In my opinion, all of my 1920-1930 A.H. Foxes are safe to shoot with modern ammo due the fact that each gun has digested from 1500-4,000 modern factory loads with virtually undetectable wear. Additionally, the 16ga digested upwards of 15,000 handloads suggested to be at 9,700 psi. In the 18 months since I completed my project 12ga SW, it has fired 2,000 Nitro27's, 2,000 AA's and 18,000 handloads at 9,100 psi, again with no detectable wear. Altogether, I put more than 50,000 rounds through 5 Foxes without generating any detectable wear, much less an "unsafe" condition.

Based on my personal experience (and others that I'm aware of), I'm willing to state that any A.H. Fox, deemed safe to shoot with any ammo, is safe to shoot with modern ammo.

He also said he wanted a U.S. made gun.

You are absolutely right, Mike. Say hi to your dad.

Mrs. Campbell I'd just as soon you left me out of your queer arguments with Miss's Legg.

You is what you is.........according to Frank Zappa, anyway.
Best,
Ted

Yea it's evident it's in your Genes.

Victor Sarasqueta made trap sxs`s ,IIRC,in the sixties.
An ole timer had one he ordered in Spain,and I couldnt understand
why he was shooting trap with such a contraption,but it makes sense now as I`m not an ATA member.

Here is one that speaks "vintage" -

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9211518

Not sure about chamber length.