I weakened when Ed said his newest book was under $30 on buy.com or whatever. I like Parker guns alot, but thought another hurray Parker book was not real interesting. BUT, I received the book today and I want to recommend it to lots of you fellows who like all of the early breechloaders. At least half of the book is about other guns, Whitneys, Ethan Allens, Boyd Breechloading Arms Co., Lefever, Baker , Remington, ---------well you get it. Lots of good photos and ads. I know lots of you will enjoy reading what he has published and I wish to commend him. Thank you, too, to all of the Walt Snyders, Bob Elliots, Mike McIntoshes [sp?] ,John Houchins, Parker guys, etc who have written about our wonderful gun heritage. I did not mean to leave anyone out as I am gratefull to you all. Get the book and you will have hours of enjoyment. I just put it in my suitcase , ready for my southwest quail hunting trip .

Ed has copiously gone through endless magazines, journals and correspondence from the period. His research is very sound. His prose is easy to read. His pictures are great. I am very pleased with my purchase and I don't even own a Parker.

Pete

$36+ at Amazon; free shipping. I have had some trouble swallowing Muderlak's booster enthusiasm on occasion but I sprang for the "old reliable" book and I'll most likely get this one based on the recommendation above. Only piece of the Parker legend I can afford!

jack

I got Ed's Limited Edition and with it he thru in several Parker catalogue reprints & a copy of "Knight of the Trigger" the story of Arthur DuBray. I just finished it and it alone was worth the price of all. I will be delving into the Parker book next. Congratulations Ed, you did a wonderful job.

Best Regards, George

Hoping Santa will bring me a copy of his first Parker book. I have Peter Johnson's book, and Larry Baer's as well-were Parkers the best of all the American made BOXLOCK side-by-side shotguns? I read a rumor that Winchester in the 1920's tried to acquire Parker Brothers- not for sale-took the Crash of Oct 1929 to "grease the skids for that"- 1934 Remington-UMC. I find Ed M.'s postings here to be very well thought out, wonder why the PGCA doesn't allow him, I assume he is a member, to post on their forum? Surely, he doesn't need that forum to advertise his books-their quality, like that of the "Old Reliables" speaks volumes..RWTF

I think that he must have ruffled some PGCA feathers a while back. Their hierarchy seems pretty self congratulatory & the names of the directors don't seem to change very much.

Just My Thoughts.........George

Ordered it today based on your recommendation, Daryl. Thanks for the tip. Oh, my copy cost $28.95 (includes shipping)....got it by clicking on the "used" books at Amazon. Brand new copy.

Too hot to quail hunt in the Texas Panhandle so today I flew over to New Mexico and fly fished for trout. Shirt sleeve weather on the first of November! Betcha it won't stay that way...

Ah yes-inbreeding- the downfall of the European ruling "classes"-as my fishing pals often say- "Time to change the water on the minnows- Wonder how many of that elite gruppen lost their funding for the next 28 gauge CHE at Schuckadella's Fine Gunz Auction Haus- who can say. I always put my dinero in real estate not high end guns- as Mark Twain once said- "In the long run, real estate can be the best investment one can make, as God only made so much land and He always seems to be making more people"!! Parkers are excellent shotguns, no doubt of that, but like with any other valuable item, there are "sharks" around-at least the gruppen that banned EDM (like telling the Pontiff he can't celebrate Mass anymore in the Vatican) has the wisdom not to allow sales of Parkers via their forum. Sure, a gent buying a 20 bore AAHE to shoot lawyers with (and the odd quails) in TX most likely ain't gonna saw it off and use it to rob a 7-11- But the Feds don't take that attitude-why risk it??

We agree (1) and disagree (2): First on real estate, my wherewithal is tied to the land (farmland) and I haven't owned stocks and/or bonds since 1995, so, to a point, we agree in the present tense.

But let's go back to the roaring 1970s, when the investors were chasing mucho dinero after farmland on the theory that they "weren't making it anymore." The price/earnings ratio of rents to asking/selling price skyrocketed (from a historic 20 to 25 times rents to 50 times rents). Investors were happy to buy a $3,000 acre renting for $100, with debt at 8% to 12% interest on the rationale that the $240 to $360 per acre interest was deductible at ordinary income tax rates, while they were going to flip the farm at a profit and pay only capital gains rates on the "profit." This is known in the trade as "the greater fool syndrome."

Truth be told, I did some of it (in moderation), and always found my "greater fool." Then I found my dreamboat in October 1980, stopped speculating in overpriced farmland, and sailed off into the sunset in spring 1981. Then the bubble burst, as all bubbles sooner or later do. I was lucky. And luckier yet when I returned from my 3-year sabbatical and found all that speculative $3,000 farmland in foreclosure and valued at $440 to $810, with rents of $70 to $80 per acre, and no one wanted it! (except me).

(1) Lesson to be learned is that when everyone is buying, maybe it's best to withdraw from the market. Could this be the case now with expensive double guns? It's hard to say, because they seem to keep going higher. Being smarter than the market is always retrospective. I think farmland in particular, and real estate in general, are overpriced. Investigation continues...

(2) As to whether a collectors group, like the PGCA or LCSCA, could or should allow the mention of guns looking for new owners, or persons looking for specific guns to express their first amendment rights on the group's BBS or Forum,:

I BELIEVE IT DEFEATS THE VERY PURPOSE FOR WHICH THE GROUPS EXIST, TO PROHIBIT MENTION OF GUNS FOR SALE OR GUNS WANTED ON TODAY'S BEST SOURCE OF CURRENT INFORMATION: THE INTERNET.

This issue goes back to the inception of parkergun.org when Ron Kirby and I burned up the phone lines several evenings a week, and what now is the BOD were, in reality, Ron's go-fer's, and had no legal control of the PGCA. Ron wanted to suck up to the dealers. Ron felt that if Parkers were bought and sold between collectors at "retail" rather than dealers buying collections at wholesale, breaking up the collection, and reselling one at a time at retail was going to hurt dealers.

But my understanding of the impetus for founding the PGCA (gleaned from many an evening in the founder's gun room, and with lunches with several of the founding directors back in the mid- to late 1990s) was to promote networking among collectors, not pimp for dealers. So when Ron called to sound me out about his plan to prohibit buy/sell communication on the new, almost on-line BBS, he claimed the specious concern about BATF monitoring the internet. I corrected him...but his real agenda was to protect dealers.

FACT: The Internet is no more subject to BATF monitoring or control than the newsletters mailed by the PGCA and LCSCA; both use a means of interstate communication. In other words, if the BATF were a legitimate concern, then the respective collectors associations should likewise prohibit buy/sell in their paper and ink publications. Prohibiting buy/sell on the PGCA site was simply Ron's ploy to favor dealers at its inception, which has since 2003, been perpetuated by the BOD of the reorganized PGCA, against good judgment.

I continue to be critical...and one cannot do anything but praise the current BOD under penalty of being excommunicated, so your reference to the Pope is well taken.

But the BATF and Buy/Sell prohibition aside, the rule is honored in its violation. A substantial percentage of the threads on parkergun.org are about guns for sale or thinly veiled offers to buy. This has to drive the webmaster nuts, and it impairs the vitality of the of the website and organization itself to have what is perceived as a silly rule with helter-skelter and often irrational enforcement.

While the first amendment only accrues to the one who controls the medium, be he an editor at a newspaper who slants coverage to tout BHO, or a webmaster who is chided by the BODs of a collectors group to squelch legitimate critique, the result is the same loss of credibility. Who would ever guess that a association dedicated to collecting anything, be it fine shotguns or barbie dolls, would prohibit communications directed to acquiring or dis-acquiring the very items that sparked interest formation of the group in the first place. EDM

I'm inclined to agree with Ed, if in fact the original and sole purpose not to allow offers to buy/sell on the Parker Forum, was to protect the dealer & his profit margin. I also agree with Fox that it may be time to change the water in the minnow bucket. The old adage still holds true: "If you ain't growin yer dying" and not to allow someone new to Parkers to puchase his/her first one from someone on that forum especially dedicated to that brand seems foolish and self serving. Conversely for that new person who wishes to dispose of a Parker, not to be able to straightforwardly advertise it for sale on the Parker Forum, that likewise seems foolish. I sincerely hope that the Pope gets to say Mass in the Vatican once more.

Just My Thoughts.......George

Post deleted by Run With The Fox

Foxy, I think your memory needs a shot of WD 40, she may be stick'en babe.

Imagine if he wasn't "at a loss for words"...

Post deleted by Run With The Fox

Somehow, I suspect they had other reasons.

Lor and Begorra Foxy you're a lad of the old sod.as I've often said if these old guns could talk what a tale they could tell. I surely hope that you and Ed will continue to participate in this forum and others if only to share the knowledge.

Best Regards, George

Somehow, Mr. "Repo-Depot" I think you are correct, sir. I'm a shanty Irish working class Mick-who, due to a pure stroke of luck (I was the only Grandson) inherited two reasonably valuable Parkers-more valuable, granted had they been in the 20-28-gauge or .410 calibre than the more commonly found 12 gauge-but when you are shooting for big money per bird, would you use anything but a 12 bore? Most of the elitists on that gruppen are big-buck bracket boys-there were a few fine gents I recall-two actually tried to get me "semi-re-instated I guess"- one: a Lon Morris? from Mt. actually said- "Hey, maybe this man doesn't want to list his inherited Parkers because he is concerned about the rise in crime and the scumbag druggies who would just as soon pawn off a BHE 20 gauge circa 1922 for drugs as run over their Grandmothers. Most of the elites seem to congregate in the Eastern Seaboard sector- so to Mr. Morris of MT, thanks-also to another gentleman who owns a Stutz-Bearcat dealership in the hometown of the late William Hardon Foster-the "father of skeet" and also a Parker man- and the Parker shotgun will always be the Acme of quality in the American side-by-side gun kingdom.

I only wish to support Ed Mulderlak, and will do so until he requests me not to-as I have learned a great deal from every one of his posts I have carefully read on this website- He most likely has a MENSA grade I.Q., yet, answers all the questions asked of him herein in a most intelligent way, detailed, researched until who laid the rail- but NOT as an elitist "gun snob", and that rings bells in my black Irish heart- whose favorite blessing runs like this: "Lord, for those who love us, let them continue to love us-but Lord, for those who cannot love us, we beseech Thee to be turnin' their hearts toward us. But gracious Lord, should their hearts be hardened by the weight of the world and they cannot learn to love us, then we ask Thee to turn their ankles instead- so's we can regonize the sorry sodden bastards as they go a limpin' away. RWTF

George: The problem started with Ron K. and why the new BOD (after reorganization in 2003) didn't apply some common sense is a mystery. Your use of the word "foolish" is spot on.

The PGCA as originally constituted had five founding members of the legal BOD. Every corporation, be it for profit or non-profit has to have directors (three minimum if incorporated in IL; the PGCA was incorporated as a not-for-profit in VA, and had five directors). Forrest Marshall was elected president by the BOD, Ron K. was secretary; Fred Stump (an accountant) was treasurer.

When the PGCA was a start-up association, the original BOD's and the first "charter" members kicked in $300 each for start-up costs, like a computer, office equipment, stationery, etc. By paying $300 they were absolved of ever having to pay dues, and thus were "life members." Subsequent new members, when they joined, elected to pay $25 annual dues or a one-time $300 (and thus "life members"). But being a life member meant nothing more than not having to pay annual dues...until Ron K. got imaginative...

To encourage his cadre if willing helpers Ron (a legal director, legal secretary, and calling himself "Executive Director") invented the concept that life members would get to vote. So Ron contrived to form a "shadow BOD" of his helpers. An election was held, five shadow BODs were elected, along with a new "president." Not legal, but it worked for a time, until the fictitious BODs started to work independent of Ron's wishes...and the stuff hit the fan after a contested election in spring 2003. Ron announced that it was all a sham, and with the agreement of three of four other legal directors booted out the impostors, three of which are now on the reorganized seven-man BOD and are also officers.

I was instrumental in changing the mind-set of three original BODs, which with Ron's one antagonist, constituted a majority of four legal BODs...Ron was out, and the original BOD rewrote the by-laws to allow life members to vote, a vote was taken, a new BOD installed, and Viola! The new BOD didn't want to hear from EDM, a mere annual-dues-paying non-voting member.

I have paid annual dues now for 15 years; I have had people press $$$ in my hand at PGCA events, so that they could put me up for the BOD. But since 1991, when I bought my sailboat, Solent, my wife and I have averaged 6 months per year, coming and going, sailing or at anchor, almost all of the time out of the country. For the past 18 years there was no way I could assume a leadership role being gone so much. So I researched and wrote, which I could do on the fly. My first book was written while anchored in Clark's Court Bay, Grenada BWI, for 5 months in 1995/96.

Meanwhile, as an annual-dues-paying "bystander" with over 11,000 books out there with my picture, name, and hometown, and given the Internet, I am easy to get in touch with. And for a great many members who joined up with applications slipped in my books, I am the only face they associate with the PGCA. Of the 1,000 members, less than 10 percent have ever attended a gathering. So when things go wrong I hear about it, and being hopelessly entwined with the PGCA, I have often passed the message...like recently when a person who joined in April in Sanford NC at the PGCA/LCS Shootout, and hadn't heard anything for FOUR MONTHS! I e-mailed 4 honchos: one responded that it wasn't his problem; two failed to acknowledge my e-mail; one e-mailed me, and I quote him: "What are you trying to do, stir up trouble?"

The punch-line is that the PGCA BOD has killed the messenger. When I receive my "current" Roster in August (or thereabouts each year), the first thing I do is update my mailing list for new members...but this August there were no new members! The powers that be reprinted last year's Roster at no little expense and mailed at least 1,000 of them at usual postage rates. When I discovered and reported the glitch my info went over like a turd in the punch bowl. And the last thing the powers that be want is this mentioned and opened for discussion on the PGCA Forum.

Finally, if I was allowed on the PGCA Forum I would have mentioned that Ray P. at the Vintagers has always supported the PGCA with a gratis display table, after I wrote about the possibilities in 1997. The PGCA had a large tent with about 20 tables at a bargain price this year at Pintail Point, which the PGCA officers, BODs, and honchos largely abandoned Saturday afternoon. The PGCA tent was almost vacant Sunday...like a conspicuous eyesore...like rats deserting a sinking ship, like gun show dealers packing up on Sunday mornings, which guarantees that promoters who have to pay rent for both Saturday and Sunday, will have little or no Sunday paid admissions.

You see, George L., stuff like this does not contribute to the self-aggrandizing back slapping that is endemic to certain persons who have the power to pull my plug. But in the final analysis, this site is so much more diverse and interesting, and one can fritter away a great amount of time on the Internet if given the chance. Not having the chance to be heard on the PGCA forum was inconvenient when my book was approaching release back around Labor Day. Friends passed the update messages...but always concerned about just how vindictive the Forum police might be. The book is now an accomplished fact, and my participation on the PGCA Forum is passe'.

I have moved on to doublegunshop.com where persons can express themselves without the paranoia so often detected on parkergun.org , where posters are always super-sensitive to the "speak-no-evil" thought police lurking (never contributing), just waiting to "disappear" another worthwhile thread. What a breath of fresh air this site has proved to be! EDM

Ed: Thanks for the well thought out response. I have been a member of PGCA for only three years now but in that brief amount of time I have detected a good bit of "home cooking". While it is fine to enjoy each other's company it is not so fine not to invite new blood, with new ideas, new outlooks and other new friends into the PGCA fold. There is not a whole lot of youth to be seen in the BOD and while I am no "spring Chicken" myself I know that there are many young Parker afficianados out there who could and would contribute a lot to the organization. I'll say again: "If You're Not Growin' Yer Dyin'" Keep up the good writing. I really envy you your forays into the Caribbean. I'm an ex Tin Can Sailor and It has been a lifelong dream to finish my life doing what you & your wife are doing. Do you scuba in Aruba?

Best Regards, George

Serving as a member of the PGCA BOD is not an appointed position. One can even nominate one's self but, never-the-less, must be nominated for election. No one can be refused nomination as long as he/she is a member in good standing - then it is up to the election process which, in my opinion, is quite fair and democratic. The sagacity that normally comes with age is not necessarily a bad thing - it has served mankind well through the milennia and is good for the PGCA and any other organization wherein wisdom and experience are always called upon in decision-making processes. Yes, youth is good; fresh ideas are good too, as well as the energy of youth too. There are two positions opening on the PGCA BOD very soon... let's see what happens.

Dean

Dean, I very much appreciate all you did for me re: The PGCA-I hope you become a BOD member. You own and shoot fine Parkers, you drive vintage cars, what Hemingway called "Rey Del Mundo Hombre"!! EDM and I may have one thing in common-even though we, like with you, will never meet- I flat out WON'T kiss any man's ass for a favor-I'll most likely tell him to go "piss up a rope

The big three of retail gun sales, that being: Cabelas, Gander Mountain and Scheels-all have a way to code a gun without a legible serial number-and I, mistakenly, thought you had to complete the NICS check to sell a gun to any one of those three retailers.

I had thought about having it "restored" during the Winter-Spring period of 2009- Mr. Vicknair would have been my choice, but then I would have most likely made it into a "Safe Queen" like the two AHE 12 bores that wear those crowns. I basically shoot my Model 12's because they kill birds for me quite well indeed. I only shoot when I can see their "shoelaces"- no sky-bustin'for me, not at today's ammo prices.RWTF -RWTF!!

Back to the books, I read "Knight of the Trigger", and found it to be a great read. Ed is a good writer, for sure. I didn't know he was banned from the PGCA site. Is this true?

George: Don't get me wrong; the PGCA is a worthwhile group with about 1,000 members, healthy treasury, active Research Letter department, official participation at two national events; Parker Pages, the Journal of the PGCA being more a magazine than a newsletter; and elected directors and officers who sometimes do the jobs they undertook when they volunteered for office. All and all, you can't fault them for what they are paid.

Fact is that "The Parker Gun Collectors Association..." are the first 5 words of my new book, and there are another 11 references to the PGCA in the index. With 4 books about Parker Guns in print, I can't help but benefit from the continued success of the PGCA, and the PGCA can't help but benefit from my Parker-related efforts. Sort of like a bad marriage where neither party can afford a divorce...so I sleep on the couch.

By the way, I did my time on a carrier, CVA 43 USS Coral Sea, and did my scubaing in Hawaii, Guam, Japan, and the Philippines in 1963...now I just snorkel, and we never made it to Aruba. Nancy and I never got east of Caracas, Venezuela, on our Rival 34 Solent. When the political situation started to sour under Chavez, we headed home. Now Solent is back in Florida in dry storage, maybe for sale: Interested? EDM

Ed: I might be although I think that I want a twin screw boat. I am in the "cash out" mode on guns and real estate. My time was a little before yours: 1959-63 on The USS Voglegesang DD-862 & the USS Manley DD-940 in the Med, West Coast of Africa & East Coast of South America Solant-Amity. Spent some time in Gitmo, Trinidad, Puerto Rico, Roosevelt Roads & attacked Vieques & Culebra. It was in that time I got the bug for blue water sailing
Father Time is catching up to me & if I'm ever going to do it I need to get going soon.

I know that PGCA is well formed a does good service to it's members. I have met several of the BOD and for the most part they are very decent gents. My main concern is that they don't seem to be overtly welcomming to new members. The magazine and the picture trail seems to be a bit redundent with the same group of names.

When an avid student, or moreso professor of the brand is excluded from posting his knowledge and comments, for whatever reason, it does disservice to us all. I have weathered personal attacks myself and continue to involve and be involved in discussing the things that interest me such as Parkers. A free expression of ideas and freedom of speach is what this great country was founded on. I believe that it was Pat Henry who said:
" I may not believe in what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". Keep on keeping on.

Best Regards, George