There was a thread where a fellow(I believe his name was 12brd)asked for a vote of which gun to shoot. His LC Smith FW 12ga won the contest. He took it out and got his limit of birds the following morning and posted the results. Sorta cool little deal. But I noticed that the Smith was a VERY nice old gun near 100% in the box with the origional papers. 12brd even says he would have taken it out in an all day rain, "it just would have gotten wet for the day". I feel there is so many shooter grade LC's....Or am I just an old guy that wants to over protect my origional condition guns?

My question to all y'all is:

1) Would you have shot this gun?

2) If so, would you have shot it in the rain?

Nope!! There are not a lot of NIB field grade anything. It is his gun and his value to loose but it is a bit more then 'his'. IMHO, it is a national treasure(assuming it is in untouched as it left the factory) and needs to remain that way. A very rare item. Plenty of used field grades to use. I don't take any of my fine guns out in the rain. In fact I try not to go out in the rain at all.

I don't deserve to have to do the dirt on a time-capsule gun and fortunately haven't been blessed with the means to do so. Better to get a ninety yr. old man who's never been anyplace, never done anything, and have him do it. A slightly crow-footed Geo. Clooneydroid would be about right for the job. Certainly real issues here. Effect on market value, effect on finite supply of "museum quality" examples complete with packaging, hangtag, and all that other collector in situ detritus.

Triggers meant to be pulled; cylinders turned, slides slid. Still some things which have survived the human touch probably should be encouraged to continue doing so. If I'm not mistaken, there're probably some real nice high-dollar guns in current production that are good for initial show and longterm go. Large part of the artifactual past has been consumed already; no need for the time-traveling consumer to finish the job.

jack

But in the end all of these guns were made to be hunted with.
How many auctions have we all been to that divied up a lifetimes collection of (insert items here) of some gentleman that would be crying if he were still alive.
How many of us will this happen to in the future?
Some one some day, beit 200 years in the future may purchase one of the most prized guns in your inventory and take it hunting and possibly leave it in the bed of a truck and get lost on some dusty road. A gun worth $25,000 on the open market may be treated like a $100 gun to you and me buy some people. I for one am glad that he decided to hunt with it as it is only going to be in his possesion for a short time on this earth, and afterall it is his to use as he sees fit for this moment in time.

He paid for it, he can do what he wants with it.

What-EVER gives him the most pleasure. Period. His life, his gun to enjoy to the fullest.

Sort of like saying that it is fine to paint a room that has Rufus Porter murals on the walls. It's his house and he paid for it.
Best,
John

Shoot it.

I once ruined the original stock finish on a high condition 16 gauge Damascus GHE Parker by hunting grouse in the rain. Water encroached under the buttplate and other areas. A thick coat of Johnson's Paste Wax over the wood and wood to metal surfaces would have prevented the damage. I still have the gun but now know that the damage could have been prevented and I still could have carried it on the hunt and others.

I have a mint Parker DH 16ga damascus gun made in 1897. Unless it was the only gun that I had left, I can't see any reason that I would want to take it out to shoot, especially in the rain. I actually get nervous taking it from the safe to the shelf for fear it will get some sort of nick or fingerprint on it.

You know of all the guns the members had me pick from the LC is the one I'm in $ wise the least. I know its nice and don't treat it like my camo Benelli. Sure was fun to take it out and show what can still be done with an old American gun. Not sure if everyone has seen the original packaging, so here's a look. JW

For whatever it's worth I have hunted big game here in Arizona* in day after day of rain/sleet/snow with wood stocked Ruger 77s without any problems whatsoever. All of my hunting guns are given a generous coat of Flitz's Gun Polish and of course properly maintained after the hunt. I have never had a problem with rust or anything else and they still look great.
*Yes it does rain and snow here particularly during the late hunting season.
Jim

No offense Timothy, but this makes absolutely no sense. Why even have it then? Why not just stick it in a museum? It's like being married to Scarlett Johansen and never laying a hand on her. What a waste.

Certainly its an individual decision, but I say shoot em! Thats what Messrs Parker, Smith, Fox ,and Lefever made them for. They want to be shot...Not languish in a vault somewhere...

Nothing wrong with hunting with a fine condition Parker, L.C. Smith or English "Best" if you have pockets deep enough to own one (or more) and the gun is used properly but NEVER ABUSED. Shooting a nice double in the rain?...probably not my first choice for the smart thing to do even if you're skilled enough to strip the entire gun apart and dry, clean and oil each and every individual part...a lot of work. I've seen the very wealthy "gentlemen" sportsman take a Purdey' out in the Duck boat and bring it back scratched and full of mud! These people do it for their ego and because they can...but I think they're idiots who do all gun lovers and collectors a serious disservice.

When it comes to a factory MINT example of a fine VINTAGE gun, I think the rules that govern our thinking must change. While we all may be shooters, we're also collectors too with a responsibility to act as caretakers of history. So why shoot a "mint" specimen when there's a ton of shooter grade guns available! Back in the 1950's many Sharps Rifles and Colt SAA pistols were cut up and modified to be "modern" shooters. As a result a lot of fine arms with great historical value were destroyed for future collectors to treasure.

Many of my guns are much older than I am now, and with proper care will be here for many more generations to come...assuming McCain is elected and not Obama.

Bottom line: if its survived a 100 years or more in pristine condition, appreciate it for its aesthetic value and shoot something else.

My Gawd, Timothy!! The Wolverines are in trouble and I'm going to send the Buckeyes to really give them a thumping here in a few weeks. You see what they did to the Spartans yesterday, didn't you? Seriously, I know how you feel. I guess these same guys don't mind all of the 1897 Winchesters having their barrels whacked off to make cowboy shooters. I once saw an beautiful engraved with gold- LC Smith Crown Grade being sold at my club with 18" barrels. But this summer I have been taking a few of my 21s out to the skeet range and shooting them- VERY carefully. One of my buddies had a beautiful old Joseph Lang at the skeet range. A lot of them shoot old classic guns at my range from time to time. I guess it all depends if you intend to use the gun or save it for selling at a later date. I put away several nice guns for years and never shot them. And I got top dollar for them in the past few years as retirement money. That is what I saved them for. Some of my guns I will absolutely not shoot. I did buy an old 21 that is pretty roughed up a few years ago that I always use for hunting. It is fun to have one as my "thumper". But, the next time you run into one of these guys with a 100 year old Colt, start spinning it around on your finger and ask them if you can take it to the range and quick draw with it. When they object, just say, "Hey!! It was made to be used, right?" I remember, a few years ago, one guy on here had taken a classic rifle to the rifle range and while it was sitting in the rack at the range, someone came up, picked it up without asking, looked at it and after making a snide remark about it, dropped it while he was setting it back down and cracked the checkered buttstock. We hear guys on here all the time telling about their dogs knocking them over while they were leaning against their cars, falling down and dropping them down a rocky hillside, driving off after they left it on the roof of their pickup truck and losing them in the woods. It would have been a lot better if it had been a $200.00- 870 that was abused. So, you have to decide what to do since it is your gun. But, as long as people feel the way you do, there will be a lot less grandchildren ending up saying, "Look what my knuckleheaded grandfather did to this wonderful gun!" Good luck.

I think it's apparent there is a happy medium between abusing a gun and never using it. It's called carefully using a gun.

I shoot my Parkers when I can and want, and I've nicked or otherwise degraded the condition of any.

I'll be taking a very high condition double rifle and a nearly mint paradox out hunting for whitetails in a couple weeks. I could save them for future generations.....but I'm just too selfish. I worked for them, I'm going to enjoy them. Just my take.
Steve

Yes, but you just have to decide if you want to be "very careful" with them and have them accidentally getting damaged or not. Personally, I am the type of person who is unlucky enough to have something happen to a gun. And you can't always prevent someone else for damaging your gun. We had one guy on here who had taken a nice classic gun to the trap range. He had the guy shooting next to him put a ding in his gun with a shell that ejected from the other guy's automatic. He was on here the next day asking us if he had the right to sue the guy over the dent in his gun. Hmmmm..... That's the chance you take on being careful, dude.

I would not use that L.C.S. because it came with the BOX. Due to restorations places like Turnbull's pretty soon the only way to make sure something is original is to ask for BOX, TAGS and original WAXED PAPER. Original box and papers actually sells ole' guns. Maaan, Americans luv ole' paper things!

Answer:

1) Yes, that's what they were made for.

2) No.

I remember, when I first started shooting trap, I bought a new Beretta trap gun. After a few weeks of shooting with it, I was going through the door of my club house carrying my gun in one hand and shells in the other. The wind blew the door closed and before I could get out of the way, the door hit my gun and put a small ding near the end of the buttstock of my new gun. I was ticked off...... This summer, I bought a used Citori when I started shooting skeet. Some of you might remember. It was used, but there wasn't a mark on it because the guy who owned it before me, bought it, shot it a few times and then turned around and traded it back to the dealer. So, I couldn't really tell if it had been shot. It was still that new. A guy at my range wanted to shoot it because he didn't have his skeet gun that day. He had let my use his skeet gun a few weeks before when I was just starting at shooting skeet. So, fair was fair, right? We were both shooting the same gun on the same round- handing it back and forth and while he was turning around talking to everyone and not watching what he was doing, he dropped a shell while he was loading the gun. He made a few stabs at it and the shell flipped up in the air a few times and in order to catch it, he clamped it between his bicep and the buttstock and the rim from the brass on the shell made a nice ding right in the middle of the stock. The first day I had it!! I was ticked off. Neither of these were expensive guns, mind you. But, things like that happen. Better with a thumper than a nice classic.

personal decision.....period.

I have nice guns that I do not hunt quail with...especiall around badger holes(I fell in one once that was so big I was trying to learn chinese before I touched bottom). But, I will definatly hunt dove with them on a clear nice opening day.

I have a friend that will not even hunt with a very plain Citori, I have seen prettier wood on a pallet!

There are things you can do.

1. Do not have zippers on your vest.

2. Do not handle other things while you are handling your gun, within reason.

3. Never lean it against a vehicle.

4. Be mindfull of doors and hatches on back of 4x4s.

5. Always keep a Rem wipe or something like it handy to prevent surcace rust.

I am sure that there are many other hints like that but these guns are for our enjoyment only the individual that owns it can best decide how that is done.

Some folks marry a lady in white and leave no Heirs while others have dozens of grandkids.I would shoot the gun just like the first owner. As for rain who knows when it might happen.Think back to the Vintagers shoot and all the fine guns on display.No matter how fine the tent these guns were in the weather.

Some Parkers, Tim, are indeed "Safe Queens" and ascribing the female gender to an item most commonly owned and used (or collected) by males may seem strange, as the tradition of referring to ships and sailing vessels as "She". But, in the case of Parker Bros., the top stock checkerer for many years was a lady named Mrs. Hanson (Hansen) I loaned my Peter Johnson Parker book to a friend, that's where I recall reading this fact. And ladies have also influenced shooting and our beloved Parkers, albiet in a segue: William Hardon Foster shot Parkers, and he was the 'inventor' of skeet-originally called 'shooting around the clock' I believe. In the early 1920's, I think it was Remington, sponsored a contest to name this new clays shopgun event, and a Mrs. Gertrude Hurlburt (Hurlbert)? from MN won- the used the Scandanavian word for 'shoot", that word being skeet.

I sold a "national treasure" about two years ago. It was--and I hope still is--NIB with box with label, hang tags, and barrels still wrapped in cardboard packing, just as it left the factory in 1927. Don Criswell, a top-end gun dealer who specialized in collecting unfired Parkers, once told me he had never seen a NIB Trojan, and he said my gun was one of a kind.

High condition and unfired "knockabouts" tend to be rare because they were knocked about and weren't valued like the higher grades when new. I sold this $27.50 when-new gun for $7,500.00, a record price for a Trojan 12-bore. The new owner bought it strictly as an investment, and flipped it on Jim Julia's auction last October for $9,000 plus 15% juice, or $10,350.00...FOR A TROJAN!

Meanwhile, I thought last fall that I might be be wise to invest in Crocks Rubber shoes (CROX on the ticker) because the pundits on Wall Street thought it was under priced at about $75.00 per share, and my grand kids wouldn't wear anything else. But I don't play the markets...and now a year later CROX is hovering around $3.00. And the Dow has tanked from 14,000+ to in the 8,000s. Parker guns are looking pretty good right now as a store of wealth. I personally do not consider fine shotguns as "investment grade," but they do tend to hold their value if well thought, well bought, and well cared for. This includes separating the wheat from the chaff: The shooters from the collector's items. A NIB or unfired pre-WWII shotgun is a collector's item.

After selling the Trojan 12-bore for $7.500.00 as a collector's item I effectively bought it back as a shooter for $850.00 at the Vintage Cup last year. A dealer had a similar Trojan 28-inch M&F with original butt plate, original varnish, and hardly ever shot...but it had been a "closet gun" that got rusty. The barrels were refinished too black for an original Parker, and the action had some pitting on the bolsters; the case colors were removed when the rust was cleaned up, but inside it was close to new, hardly ever fired.

My son now has an almost unfired 1920s Trojan that suits him as much as a shooter as if I had given him the NIB Trojan to trap and bird shoot. There is no moral to this story. When I owned the NIB Trojan it was mine to toss the box and packaging if I wanted, and I could have used and even abused it...but to what end? I owned it and passed it on, got a good price, and have a story to tell. If the story were that I tossed the box and reduced the 100% case colors to, say, 50% through hard use, I think the consensus here would be that I was not too smart. But selling a $7,500 Trojan and buying one back for %850 and not investing the "profits" in CROX...

Well, those who think firing a NIB or unfired collector gun is a good idea should tell their success stories rather than pile opinion ("I would do it") upon conjecture ("if I had such a gun") upon platitude ("guns are made to be used"). Let us not forget that the opinions posted on this Forum are mostly worth what we pay for access. And a caveat: When expressing my opinions above, I mean NIB and unfired guns in 98%+ condition. I have always recommended buying shooters in high-original and close-to-new condition (say, 50% to 90% case colors), when possible. Guns advertised as "New by DelGrego" or "New by Turnbull" are, for the most part, no more new than a beat-out high-mileage car that has been to MAACO for a paint job. Other people think otherwise, and it's their money. EDM

Here's a man who should read my books and articles.

I interviewed Peter Johnson in 2004; he passed away in 2005. (See my Winter 2005 DGJ article.) Mrs. Hanson has no provenance as "Parker's top stock checkerer." She was simply a surviving Parker employee who answered an ad in her local newspaper. What happened was that in 1958, Peter, then a young English teacher at the University of Virginia, decided to start writing a book about the Parker shotgun. He placed an ad in the Meriden CT newspaper, soliciting letter post communications from anyone who had Parker-related information. Mrs. Hanson sent him a letter telling her story of being hired for nothing-per-hour till she learned her trade, and then 50 cents per day; at the time, "contractors," who would have been skilled team leaders, were making 25 cents to 35 cents per hour, and she would have worked for one of the more skilled checkers. (They called the process "Checking," nor "Checkering.")

As to another story well-told, it is true that Mrs. Gertrude Hurlbutt of Dayton, Montana, won a contest to name Wm. Fosters new shotgun game. Foster was the editor of the National Sportsman magazine, which ran the contest. The contest form was the two facing pages at the center of a 1926 issue that I once had in my collection. Turning the page, the the big bold title of the next article was something like, "Skeeters in Missouri," referring to mosquitoes. A little imagination coupled with seeing a picture of old Gerttie and the true story becomes clear.

She was a perfect clone of Granny on the "Beaverly Hillbilies." She lived in the middle of Nowhere, Montana, in the 1920s. No doubt her husband subscribed to Foster's "National Sportsman." Reading materials served a dual purpose in the days of outdoor plumbing. If ol' Gerttie started at the middle of a magazine, she could get two sheets off the staples without tearing. But in a seminal moment, while poised and ready to wipe, she saw a chance to make $100. So she saved the contest form and pulled off of the staples the next two shests...and Viola!

There it was: "Skeeters in Missouri," and the rest is over-embellished quasi-history.

As to the word "skeet" being an old Scandinavian word for shooting, this was debunked in the magazines of the day. Once Gerttie's story was told there was a barrage of letters to the editor from sportsmen of the various Scandinavian countries disclaiming the word derivation. See p.73 of my Parker Guns; The "Old Reliable" (Safari Press 1997, 2004).

EDM

Mark, I wish I had more "wastes" like her!!! It is just beautiful. And when I need to go shooting, I don't feel the need to take one that has not been shot. I'm not that selfish. Or that foolish.

Tim

It's all a matter of perspective. If you're a hunter/shooter, than how well the gun works for you is of most import. If your a collector, than it is all about condition. Collecting is about one of two things, scholarship or ego. If your an investor, than the profit is in the buy and there is little real affection for the items. It seems in some respect that all answers are correct.

To return to the original question, no and no. From a practical standpoint, I see no reason to shoot the value off of the gun. I no longer believe that a pristine specimen adds to scholarship as any 80% gun will tell us anything we need to know about original finishes, engraving styles, etc.

The answer is simple: do you buy it to shoot or to look at? You decide. No one can do your thinking for you.

I buy guns to shoot. Some start off as pure as driven snow, immaculate conceptions made to shoot in all weather, and that's what I do.

Shoot it, enjoy it, care for it, treat it as well as you can so that it will be a treasure for your family in the future. "It will tell stories of the hunts that greandpa did. They were made to shoot, shootum unless it is an investment for you, then hold and sell when the price is high. If you arn't going to sell it then it is not an investment.
Jeff G.

King I think you are on to something. I buy guns to collect/shoot and the condition and or rariety determines which guns are shot and which are not. I have very few that I do not shoot, another being a Remington 1894 with Remington Arms Co written in the damascus. That gun too was made to shoot, but what if I blew those barrels up. I would be sick. So I do not shoot it.

For the careful ones, be careful. A friend took his Winchester M-21 20 gauge with #6 engraving (if not exact, something real close) and let his friend pick it up, as he was holding it someone called his name and he turned sideways and the stock hit squarely on the corner of the table and left a divot about the size of an eraser. It got nasty.

The second careful one was me. The weather was perfect, so what the heck, I'll take one of my "babies" with me for an easy hunt. And it was nice and easy until I stepped on a log thats bark was just sitting on it from some decompasition(and hidden under some cover). Down I went on the gun and I heard the loudest SNAP that I've heard since my mom twitched my brother Scot's and my butt for throwing apples at the neighbor's cat.

Thank goodness this was not a top shelf gun, but what I learned was, at any time crap can hit the fan no matter how careful you are. So make sure that you can deal with the worst if it happens.

Tim

This site is a wonder. Here we are choosing up sides to debate this old chestnut and Muderlak pounces on Foxy's second-hand anecdotes from his summer reading list. Ed's version of William Hardon [sic] Foster's search for a name for his game really made my day.

jack

What??????? I'm only a damn sidelock, what do you mean by that?

Sorry Tim. The post header autoreferences the last post read. Response was to EDM's gloss on RWF; a few layers of embedded quotation might have helped and again maybe not.

jack

I always carry 'Rifle Rain Coat' in my pocket. They used to be available from MTM Case-Gard. Got mine at Clarks Bros. in Warrenton Va.

These guns were made to be shot!
I've a handsome Beesley Sle 12b - when Frederick left James Purdey to set-up on his own, he had 28xx guns serial numbered to his shop.
Of these were best Sle, 2nd quality Sle, ble, blne, magazine rifles and pistols.
Now with these best Sle guns, there's maybe only so many in good condition worldwide...and mine went out today!
Altho, I do not hunt it in bad weather - there are others for that.

Some of ya'll got lots better weatherman than I do.WTB mint Fox HE for duck hunting on bluebird days

Jagermeister Jagermeister
Member


Registered: 11/26/02
Posts: 5030
Loc: W KNIEI You are in desperate need of something 12br in 6.5lb-6.75lb range with 1/4---3/4 choking and 28" barrel length. It is internationaly acknowledged that the English made and make best bored barrels. Don't take it the wrong way, but there isn't much to pick from the list you have provided. May I suggest something of Birmingham manufacture with Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Compressed steel barrels?
_________________________
Jagermeister I can hardly believe that you of all the posters would care what I did with my nice LC. "Isn't much to chose from the list you have provided" Here is the next one I just might take out in a snow storm to see how it handles some ducks. JWA gun is no different than a piece of land. The owner is free to do with it as he chooses. Improve, develop, hold, whatever. Now if anyone would like to keep these for themselves and cherish in whatever way they would like, everything I have other than my wife and dogs are for sale for the right price. I would love to set some sort of record on price. Anyone got a 16 ga. mdl 21 and want to trade? JW