doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Hollenbeck drilling with new German rifle insert

My Hollenbeck drilling,made in 1902,and serial number 35,is in Germany now. K & S custom made a 30-30 Winchester insert for the right shotgun barrel, a cartridge offered by Hollenbeck in 1902. The drilling�s rifle is .25-25 Stevens, formally a black powder cartridge and now considered obsolete. The side by side shotgun is 12guage 2 3/4 inch. My German gunsmith and friend plans to help me restore the Damascus steel shot barrels, wood and receiver ,and have it cleaned and refurbished by experienced German gunsmiths specializing in combination guns. The gunsmith will then mount my Zeiss 1.5 to 6 x 42 scope with the pivot mount. It will be returned to me for hunting deer, pigs, turkey, coyotes and other varmints . The German gunsmiths tell me the Damascus steel shot barrels and the steel of the action and rifle are very strong. . They will shoot it with modern two and three-quarter inch shot shells to prove it. I also plan to handload .25-25 Stevens with Hornady leverevolution powder. My question is, are there any old records from Hollenbeck that go back to the first days and could reveal if indeed my ancestor bought this gun new as the 35th one made,in his new factory in Wheeling, West Virginia? My German gun smith plans to submit this project to the German gun magazine,They are absolutely amazed and obsessed with the quality of the gun and the fact that it is an American drilling. I plan to submit the project for publication as well in the Double Gun Journal. After posting a new topic on this forum in April 2017 I received much helpful advice and constructive criticism,as well as some unfounded and inaccurate opinions, but all in the spirit of healthy dialogue. This new topic is more related to both searching for ancient answers from old records with Hollenback and informing others that these antique guns were made for hunting and I believe can safely and respectfully be adapted for that use and take advantage of some advances, such as excellent light weight optics and high tech,custom made rifle inserts, that are highly accurate. Thank You for encouraging me on this journey.

ginge,
I cannot answer your question about Hollenbeck records, but I think some others here can. I take it, from your text, that your gun will be Proof Tested, not just "shot" with 2 3/4" shells. This is not a bad thing. Is it actually marked for 2 3/4" shells? If not, the standard shell length(at the time)was 2 5/8". This is easy to confuse with 2 3/4". It might be helpful to have your German gunsmith friend to verify the chamber length, and lengthen it if not actually 70mm.Doing this before the proof testing, might save a lot of "tooth gnashing". Also, I believe you can have the .25-25 barrel nitro proofed, at the same time. I believe you will need to provide cases, bullets and duty load. I think a nitro proof of this barrel would be beneficial thing. The K&S Einstecklauf has a good name, and would be a very useful thing to have. A major advantage over the older ones( in addition to much wider range of calibers)is the ability to adjust the point of impact( of bullet) at the muzzle. I believe it would be helpful if you could address, in detail, how you went about having this done, as well as some idea of the cost. By this, I mean in whatever publication you submit the project in.
Mike

Der Ami
Thank you for your thoughtful and most informative reply. I do plan to take the advice of the experienced German gunsmiths on what shotshells to safely fire. I am content to use the reduced load RST shotshells unless the gunsmith tells me differently. I will find out the details of proof testing and share it since I am confused about it. For my personal use. I plan to take the German gunsmith�s recommendations and would only use a shot shell load they have first fired. Regarding the now obsolete .25-25 Stevens,I�ve researched a number of publications and handload recommendations, using smokeless powder, my plan is to start at 80% of the recommended load and slowly work up, looking for pressure signs, this will be easy since I handload and I have already obtained the brass, the reloading die, leverevolution powder, 87 grain Spitzer Sierra Varminter bullets and magnum small rifle primers. After working out technical difficulties, I will attach pictures. It is so amusing how excited and obsessed our German gunsmith brothers are with this American drilling, they never knew one existed and their excitement is way out of proportion to what I would�ve expected. This is so much fun!

I agree, it is fun. Do you live in Germany?
Mike

The records for the Three-Barrel Gun Co. and Royal Gun Co. have survived. They do have some of the Hollenbeck Gun Co. guns that were still in inventory included in them, but serial number 35 is not there.

The Hollenbeck Gun Co. also produced 20-gauge and even 28-gauge guns. Serial number 122 is a 28 x 28 x .22CF. Here is an ad from the Jan. 25, 1902, issue of The Sportsmen's Review --



Like this ad, the Hollenbeck catalog I have only offers .22, .25 and .32 caliber rifle barrels. By the first Three-Barrel Gun Co. catalog the .30 WCF is also offered. While the catalogs only mention .25-20 and .25-25 in the records we find all kinds of .25 caliber chamberings -- .25-20 WCF, .25-20 SS, .25-25, .25-35 WCF and .25-36 Marlin

Here is an ad discussing a 20-gauge chambered for 3-inch shells from the September 27, 1902, issue --

Well researcher, thank you so much for trying to find information on serial number 35. I love the ads you found, you did not disappoint! I did think the 30-30 Winchester was offered by Hollenbeck but see instead it was the 32-40, however my readings have shown me that actually the bullet used in the 32-40 is .308 inches, which of course, is the same as the 30-30 Winchester. I�m sure I could not of found an insert for 32-40 anyway. With no records available to prove who bought #35, I have to assume my ancestor bought that gun in 1902. He would have been about my age and would have needed 25-25 Stevens for the unexpected shot; with the turkey or duck just out of range of shotgun, but at his age, obtainable with his third barrel and the accurate .25-25 Stevens! (Certainly not legal for turkey and duck now, wonder if it was legal in 1902 in Alabama, where we live?)

For whatever it's worth, there are two Hollenbeck drillings listed for sale by Cherry's Fine Guns in Greensboro, NC that are factory chambered in 30/30 Winchester, although both are a bit rough and in need of work in my opinion. I don't own a Hollenbeck drilling yet; but do own a couple of his more uncommon side x sides; one is #28 an un-graded 12-bore for which no records exist (as with #35), and the other #412 an A-Grade 12-bore with the Wheeling, West VA address but marked Three Barrel Gun Co. Although a fairly early serial number, #412 was not shipped until 8/15/1908 when it was shipped to Morgan Bros (whoever that company may be?). From the surviving records it seems that all Hollenbeck and Three Barrel marked guns were numbered consecutively so that serial numbers for drillings and side x sides were intermixed. Although I know zero regarding the history of gun #28, I feel confident that the hands of Frank A. Hollenbeck himself touched that gun many times during its manufacture; and feel that the same is true for your gun #35.

ginge,
I think you will find that the 32-40 used a 165 gr .320-.321" bullet. Full length insert barrels are available in 8x58R, which is similar to 32-40 in both case shape and ballistics. I don't think K&S has them, but Zimmerman does.
Mike

The .32-40 does use a .320"-.321" bullet diameter. It is the .32 WCF (32-20) which uses the .308" bullet, totally different caliber.

The .32-40 was an old Ballard round as I recall (as well as the .38-55), while the .32 WCF was introduced by Winchester as a black powder round for the model 73 toggle joint lever gun. Colt picked it up as a chambering for their SAA. It was later offered in a high velocity loading for use in the Win Model 92 only, but dropped as too many of them found their way into model 73's & SAA's.

The .38-55 & .32-40 were straight & tapered versions of the same basic brass. The later .30 WCF (.30-30), .25-35 & 32 Win Special were all based on this same case.

Topgun, thank you for your comments on the early Hollenbeck and it is so interesting that you have number 28 in a side by side,they had to be like sisters together in their manufacture, and I never thought about Frank Hollenback himself handling number 35,but he must�ve. Thank you for that thought!
Reguarding the .32-40, I looked back at the old catalog for the three barrel gun company, it actually was a .32-40-165 Winchester Marlin Savage and I confused it with a .32-40 Remington, which actually does use a lower size bullet, .308. My old fifth addition Cartridges of the World show the three different .32-40, including the Ballard. Very interesting.
I would love to find an old Hollenbeck in bad shape to use for parts,as my German gunsmith says I may need it someday. Of interest is how this German gunsmith loves the Hollenbeck drilling and wants one for himself and his personal use. He says it is so simple, only about five moving parts in the action, which he will get into and clean later this week in Germany!