doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Early days of England's best gunmakers

Engliah gun lovers know today that many or most of the great English "gunmaker" names did not in fact make their own guns, but were either assemblers of trade sourced components, or had guns made to their specs with their name engraved upon them.

Was this also commonly known to the early retail customers at the time the brand name was being marketed as a best maker, or were they under the impression that these great named firms were the actual manufacturer of their bespoke gun?

Possibly the greatest makers were the Manton brothers.Many employees of Manton went on to become best makers in their own right.I am sure the customers had a very good idea where their soon to be prized possession was made.Then the trade just grew due to demand.

The average person did not care per se, they were not into guns to the level we are(us on the forum, ie knowing where every screw and ivory bead came from). But they did want a fine gun and going to a great "name" gave them a certain trust or piece of mind that whom ever they, the maker, used to do their work, it would be up to a certain high standard and quality of worksmanship set forth by the great English Gunmakers. Looking at these companies in retrospect, they did not disapoint their customers. I own a few of these such guns from some of these great makers and feel truley lucky indeed, no matter where they got the parts.

T

As a follow-up to my original question, I recall only seeing trade labels inside English gun cases only ever stating "Gun Maker" or "Manufacturer". Were these terms more loosely used back then, or is it a U.K. versus American language difference, or combination of both, etc?

This simply isn't true:

"English gun lovers know today that many or most of the great English "gunmaker" names did not in fact make their own guns, but were either assemblers of trade sourced components, or had guns made to their specs with their name engraved upon them."

The top makers made their own guns - especially their Best-grade guns. While they did send some stuff out - they were still making their own guns. These guns had styles, features, and sometimes systems, that were unique to the makers.

Once H&H had their factory up and going, they made their H&H Royals themselves. There other grade were made here and there in the trade.

Some smaller makers did outsourced their top stuff - companies that really weren't in the Best-grade business - but most folks were making their own guns.

OWD

When you buy a best name makers highest grade gun you are buying his reputation as well as the gun. Boss, H&H and others would never have allowed anything but the best workmanship to go into their best grades. Their reputation was their future and their fortune. Soil it by selling anything but the best, as a best, and they were out of customers. I think that Thimothy S has it right, a buyer got peace of mind when they bought from a name maker regardless of who made the gun.

Retailers, who use others as makers, still have to make sure the goods are up to snuff. Sears sold millions of guns but made none after 1910 or there abouts. They let others make the guns but they retained quality control over the gun. If the gun was made below their specs they would have stopped selling the gun and sent it back to the maker.

Maybe I didn't phrase my question correctly so all could understand it, so I will try it from the opposite side. Did any of the English houses list themselves "at the time" as a gun maker or gun manufacturer who never actually made or assembled a gun themselves?

I know that gun lovers today know that all English makers didn't make their own guns, I know that the name back then was an assurance of the best product whether made in house or not, and I know that many many USA companies, whether Weatherby, Browning, Sears, etc. etc. had/have guns made to their quality specs with their name on it. But I don't remember that Sears ever called itself a gun maker.

This is not a finger point whatsoever. I just want to know that if an English house in the 19th century called itself a gun maker or manufacturer, it at the very least meant that it had assembled at least one of its models at one point in time to use one of those descriptive terms.

Maybe this is a simpler way to ask the question.

What did the term "maker" imply to the English consumer of guns in the 19th century? Did this term have the same implication in other English consumer goods areas?

Sounds like you're trying to lump all English gun makers together...it can't be done.

HJ, not at all, I'm just trying to understand if the term back then had the same meaning that it has to me growing up in the late 20th century USA. I'm interested from the historical perspective only, and I know that the English used terms sometimes like Purveyor to communicate distribution rather than manufacturing, even if what they sold had their name on it.