doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Watching your dog make it

The "playful side" which you refer to is often taken as a "warning sign" by me. Granted, I deal with headstrong dogs that have to be convinced to do things my way. When my dogs circle or do anything but bring a bird straight back to me, that tells me that they are seeking the upper hand in our Master/Dog relationship. Circling around now can lead to avoiding you altogether later on in the pups life.

Hunting for dead birds is a very important skill to teach any dog, but especially so for setters and pointers. The natural drive of the bird dogs is to hunt and find LIVE birds. The natural drive of retrievers is to hunt and find dead or wounded birds. IMO you can't have a great dog of either kind until it learns to do that which is not ingrained in its instinct.

Another fun and useful thing to do, especially early in pups training, is to introduce tracking. A simple straight line of 20 yards or so is sufficient to begin. Initially you should work the pup on lead. As pup gets more proficient you can add gentle curves and longer distances. I had my pup tracking live pheasants by the time he was 7 months old...albeit slowly.

Todd

Chuck,

I think that you'll find among the top level professional trainers that FF isn't controversial at all. It is the accepted practice. You CAN train a retriever effectively without it (look at some of the successful British trainers, for instance), BUT you will not be likely to get the best out of your retriever without FF.

You've hit the nail on the head with the statement "fundamental milestone in the dog's training and a building block to more complex training".

Todd I do agree with you, no matter what age a dog is, they always try to get the upper hand if they can. I see with this puppy when someone new approaches, it lays down on his back and lets that someone be the dominant. Like I said this is new to me from 20+ years ago. I would be a little concered if this happened when he was a lot older, especially for a male.
Time will tell how he works out, he is from excellent stock, the bitch is from a well known kennel here in Pa. and the sire is from N.Y. State. I'll keep you posted on his results. It's a shame there are no more wild pheasants here in Pa, the game commision saw to that. 20 years ago we were 3rd. in the U.S., over a million pheasants shot.

Gerald,
Great stuff!

Thanks Guys for reading and commenting.

It is interesting the opinions about force fetching. I have always had natural retrievers. May last spaniel would fetch anything I throw. IMO if I had a natural retriever like a lab that didn’t retrieve, I’d be really upset and question the breeder’s stock.

I know FF is an accepted practice in serious dog training competition dogs, but I have never had to do it and I have seen a lot of “competition dogs” that I wouldn’t want to hunt with. IMO a dog with proper breeding shouldn’t need FF.

I have always started my dogs retrieving at a very early age. In the house, in a hallway with all of the doors closed. For a dumbbell I use a rolled up washcloth. To her dying day, my last Spaniels eyes lighted up whenever she would she a roiled up washcloth. She really got jealous when I was training my Gordon, Jack. Jack did fine with this from the beginning. It was his birdyness that was his undoing. As a pup, many times he would go out to the bird and when he had it a feather would float away. He would drop the dead bird and chase the feather and many times point it when it stopped. ( He also points reflections, shadows and flashlights).

I actually had to teach him that he was after a “dead bird”. I did this (with love from my wife) by keeping a couple of frozen ducks in the freezer. I would hide them when Jack was out and tell him “dead bird” after he came in the house. Started with the same hallway routine as the washcloth dummy. When he would get the duck, I would lead him into the kitchen telling him to show my wife what he had. He became very proud that he could find these dead birds and bring them to her. Once he became good at that I bought the pen-raised birds and made big progress last season. It is just those darn doves that screwed us up. I have seen a lot of dogs that won’t retrieve them.

I am happy it worked; I know this dog had the proper breeding. Gordons are interesting dogs. It is like living with an eternal 4-year child. At this point I am proud “dad” of a loving dog, with a fantastic personality. I am confident we are going to have a lot of great hunts together.

Jerry

Todd,
I'm getting the feeling from you and others that dogs are not unlike the horses I've had. They'll challenge you and you have to establish where you'll be in the pecking order...either above them or below them, and make it clear to them. That fundamental issue established, other details are now within the realm of the possible. Without it, you are unlikely to succeed. Dogs being a higher order thinking animal than a horse, I'd think the establishment of pecking order would be more lasting and less likely to need reinforcement as the relationship progressed.

Chuck,

I don't have any experience with horses, but I can tell you that with some breeds (not all) you can expect an occasional challenge to the pecking order. I find this usually occurs some time in the spring or summer, after season is over and when I haven't worked the dogs very often. They get used to living in the house, where I'm not as strict on obedience as I am in the field.

This challenge isn't violent or aggressive. Its usually passive...ignoring a command or two, walking away with something I've told them to bring, delaying on a "sit" or "Here!" command.

The real advantage to the "smarter" breeds is that they NEVER forget what a command means. You shouldn't have to retrain, only reinforce.

As for "natural retrievers"...all of my dogs have been natural retrievers. They would perform adequately in the field, by my standards...they'd probably be considered "fine dogs" by many of the people I've hunted with. But, just as we take pride in the guns we hunt with, I take pride in the performance of my dog. Sure, you could hunt with a JABC, but why would you if you could be hunting with a Parker or Fox?

In reality, the approach that a good pro takes and that of the ordinary dog owner dealing with one or two hunting dogs are way different. one has no bearing on the other. I think that the average person probably does not have the perserverance, determination to do an effective, gentle job of force breaking to retrieve "the trained retrieve" is the popular euphemism for it. It takes typically 6-8 weeks, working almost every day for just a few minutes, maybe twice a day. I think the gentle approach is best but it takes longer. Pros are forced to put a dollar value on their time. They go faster generally but they also know when a student is likely to fold. That is what you want to avoid. But you absolutely HAVE to demonstrate resolve that the student WILL do this--first the hold, then the retrieve. Typically they'll do it without much style at first, then, in time they'll understand retrieving is fun. But they still need to understand it is not optional.

Well, you guys are making me feel like the uneducated 'about to be' dog owner that I am. Can anyone recommend some good reading (on training) for me that is either geared toward a lab (non-pointing) or is generic of breeds? Also, some reading on canine diet and health would help me.

Chuck H,

I don't think there is a one size fits all answer to your request, so here's a selection.

For a good structured insight into humane FF (but non collar) under US conditions try the book published by American Hunting Dog Club

For collar training relative to hunting, have a look at this site. There is a very useful free on-line library, apart from videos and so on for sale. DOBBS

For a site devoted to British methods with good FAQ and many excellent trainers on board try eric Begbies mob.

A site mainly angled at US Field Trials but with some hunting is here, (occasionally given to contentiousness) RTF

If you (or anyone else) care to drop me your email address to MOLLOP@AOL.COM I have some stuff on file you might find interesting.

I couldn't resist posting a pic of "Jack" my current unguided missile. I'm struggling with his distant handling, much over 100 yards and he assumes a fine air of independance! [img]http://static.flickr.com/13/14834174_9741bda9e7.jpg?v=0[/img]

Regards
Eug