doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Damascus barrels and pressures

Ditto what King says. Just attend the Vintagers or Southern SXS shoots and you'll see evidence all around that damascus is safe to shoot when done within the bounds of prudence.

The evidence is around us, but it is not quantified. It is a vague piece of information that is interpreted according to one's fears or interests. It is used in sentences like "I think the barrels will hold OK" or "If you shoot that gun you will loose a hand".
One sees a blown up damascus barrel and the rapid explanation is clear to them: " Of course it blew up, it's DAMASCUS". You see three and you have a "certitude".
What I want to know is:
What is the chance of "a" damascus barreled gun blow up (or whatever event we choose to look at) before I shoot it. Is it 1:10, 1:1mil? Can somebody give me this piece of info? Why do I want to know it? It is because I believe only the test of time will show the qualities of this type of gun. It is not the qualified gunsmith nor the proof house that will come closer to the truth, but the numbers that stood the test of time. THat's why I am puzzled by the lack of numbers to characterise this event.
We have had the time and numbers of guns to come to a conclusion.
I will be thinking about a study design to look at this and bring it to you.

26 different British and 'Foreign' (likely Belgian) Damascus, Twist, or Laminated steel barrel types were included in the Birmingham Proof House Test of 1891.

Here's a list of the various damascus barrels available from just one Belgian maker in 1897



There were 32 barrel makers in Syndicat des Fabricants de Canons de Fusil de la Vesdre in 1907. Some were likely specialists, but most probably made Two and Three Iron Crolle and Damas Anglais.

Which Damascus barrel type do you wish to study? By which maker, in which country, with iron from which mine, and steel from which supplier, in what year of production? What minimal wall thickness or 'grade' of pitting (which we'll need to invent) would exclude a barrel from being included in the sample? What degree of internal corrosion or 'frosting'? External rusting? How many previous shells ignited in the life of the barrel will be adequate? What weight of shot and dram equivalent? What p-value will establish statistical significance?

Drew, the p value should be < .05. That would establish statistical significance.
The first step of the study will not look at the characteristics of damascus as a material for building barrels, but at the barrels themselves.
The B'ham study reflects the status of things from 1891. We will have to run our study with what we have today, barrels that have been kept well or let to rot. The study will hopefully differentiate among the well/poorly kept barrels, the thicknesses of their walls, the condition of the bore. As you know Sherman Bell's experiment suggests that even pitted barrels are/remain strong after so many years.
I want the study to tell us what's going on. I don't want to have to "believe" what my gunsmith tells me or the shell manufacturer's opinion unless it is "proof" based.
I will have to go and learn statistics and come up with a plan.

Take the example of B'ham experiment. Isn't that something that somewhat predicted what was about to happen to those tested barrels and the ones that followed the experiment? Of course, the results of the study did NOT guarantee the lack of barrel damage. It just quantified how likely it was for a certain barrel to behave in a certain way.
I think that more valid info can be gathered by this kind of study. We just have to figure out what sample size we need for statistical significance. Give me a few weeks to look into it.

I admire your spunk Sliver. We all need a windmill or two to tilt at in our lives.

Has anyone here actually had a Damascus or Twist barreled gun blow up? If so, what were the circumstances? Pitted bores or exterior? Nitro factory loads? Mud, snow, dents or other obstructions? God, I hope no one is reading this on a Braille monitor and typing a reply with a prosthetic left hand. I haven't shot any of my Damascus guns yet. No, I did fire a grade 2 L. C. Smith that I bought at a dimly lit gun show that had reblued barrels. They sure looked fluid, even in sunlight. They held with a couple shots of heavy dram equiv. factory loads. I plan to try some of the better ones and certainly the first few shots will be with warmer loads in a gun tied to a tire and fired with a long string. Subsequent shots will likely be with safety glasses and lower PSI loads than my first few. I once had a complete head separation in a M-98 Mauser .22-250. I was T-totally blind for 20-30 minutes and would rather not repeat same. I have a couple Flues Ithaca parts guns with fluid steel barrels that are shredded badly in the forend area. Yet I saw a friend fire many 3" Mag shells in a 2 3/4" (or less) 20 ga. Flues. This could just be one of those areas where prudence and common sense should be the rule.

Somewhat off topic, but here is the screen capture of a .pdf from an old article I scanned.

Silver if you want some statistics gathered I think you should do it. No one else seems to want to or need to. I really don't see how you can get any meaningful information out of it even with years of work but if you want the numbers, it sounds like you'll have to do it. Good luck.

Kinda hard to do the impossible.

I will right gladly contribute whatever data/information I may have to your project. For example, I have three "shooting" guns with damascus. I shoot a few hundred cartridges a year with them. I can offer to keep a better log of shot fired and condition pre and post. Or, should one of them have a barrel failure, I'll let you know. What statistic are you looking for?