doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com "Not In-House" British gunmakers.

Open question to the forum. Some British gun makers have no trouble in showing their production lines and workshops, others do not so. Can any one provide more information on which gun makers are operating from the "trade", local or foreign? There has been some evidence and comments that makers like William Evans (DGJ Index II, pp. 137-141) and William Powell have done this in the past. Some, like Dickson and MacNaughton openly admit that some of their trade models are made in Italy. What evidence is available that some gunmakers get their guns in the white from Spain?

Didn't most of the makers also have their parts made by local one man shops?...An action here, a lock there, next thing your "best" gun is actually an assemblage from outsourcing....

If it is well made, and it fits properly and you like it, does it really matter??

I agree with the above post.

It matters not - most outworkers are people who apprenticed with one of the best firms, then went freelance in their specialist area. Does it matter if your Holland apprenticed stocker made your Holand's stock the month before he left them (as an employee) or six months after he did (as a free-lance)? He's thae same bloke working to the same standards.

Westley Richards, Purdey and Holland & Holland all have factories - David McKay Brown seems to do it all in house too. Churchill, Atkin, Grant & Lang, Greener have facilities to do most things but out-source as needed. Twas always thus.If you have lots of orders you outsource to the trade to keep filling them.

Think about it - most firms in other walks of life do the same.As long as the quality control is set and met, the product is the same product.

I think some American makers did the same thing, just with a slightly different twist. I have understood that a number of workers in the factories were paid on a "piece work" basis, not a salary or hourly wage. Basically they would have been independent workers similar to the outworkers in England but were provided bench space in the factory. I welcome comments from many of you who are far more knowledgable in this than I.

Oneouceload & Small Bore,

In fact you both are not replying my question. I am after facts and how this has o not an impact on quality, finish or prices. If you know those facts (or anybody else) I will appreciate sharing it with this forum.

On the other hand, I think it should make a difference, for there must be a reason why some makers do emphasize what they do in their workshops and others seem to have nothing to show. Whether it matters or not in the end, I would leave it to the market to vote with their wallets.

Actually, your question is even more complicated. There are a finite number of sources for most of the components of guns. To some degree, this is true right down to the raw materials. Evidence that the lines of a particular continental action are close to those whose source isn't actually known can probably be found. I'm not certain that the best answers don't come down to the expertise of the work performed on the raw materials though. This is what I think was being put out for discussion above. Whether or not premises are open to the public rests on many aspects including insurance liability so I wouldn't necessarily read too much there. I also think that a review of comments and writings would reveal an ebb and flow for this even in the premier houses.

Dig, can you assure that all outsourcing goes to ex-employees? If not, your answer
sounds as if "as long at it's made in England all is well". Bit chauvinistic me thinks ;-)

The question is very clear: are the guns made "in house" or are they commissioned
elsewhere, and if so is this "out" for the buyers to evaluate?

If I were to realize my dream of getting a Famars Castore, I know it will be made by
them although the engraving will probably be outsourced, but that is to be expected.
Most best engravers are artists that work at home or at their specialized ateliers.

Who makes them, who has them made by someone else? That is the question.
In other words are they selling only a marque and quality control?

Best,

JC

Dig,

You are speaking only of current practice? Are you only speaking about the top London firms? Historically, I do not think this has been the case.

Pete

Gentlemen;

Having been an outsource worker for a 195 year old London Gun Mfg., these are my hard facts: the Company name on the gun is the final word. It does matter that when the final product is assembled; it is inspected, tested, and then the company assumes all responsibility for the product. What they charge is irrelevent who did the outsource work or what they paid for the outsource work. The outsource worker must be trusted by the company to do the work or they wouldn't be doing it in the first place. Usually the outsource worker is not allowed to divulge for whom they are working because of liability or copyright issues. (This fact doesn't mean others don't know who they are working for and pass the word around.) The reputation of the major firms rests not only on it's past but on it's future. These are my experiences and may not apply to all currently doing this same service.

Some here act like out sourcing is some dirty little secret. It is not. Known about for years. From the name makers, retailer and makers who make some grades in house and buy others from outside and finish in house it makes good business sense. It makes sense. Get the level of work done, at a decent price, make a profit and keep in business.

If they could have done so cheaper, in house, they would have, but they could not. Today many companies find it impossible to afford a 100K+ CNC machine to make one part, maybe a hundred times and are forced to find out source suppliers. If you could buy side plates ready to use for a pound and it cost a pound and a few shillings to make in house you bought them from the outside. You might have a person who can do case coloring/harding much better than your in house man does, you send it out. Buying from this system makes it possible to build guns to a price point or a quality point as the buyer is willing to pay for. If a buyer wants the highest grade you use the best craftsman, buyer wants a gun made to a certain price point you send it out to others who charge less but also may not make as nice a product.

I think that the real question, that many want to have answered, is who made 80% of the guns "for the trade" and the "name makers" who may have finished in house or just applied their name to the final gun? We have all seen a half a dozen different names on the same gun. Identify the real maker would tell you a lot about the trade and make it easier to compare what we see as apples and oranges for what they really are apples and other apples with another name on them. Buy the gun not the name is very sound advice.