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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,156 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,156 Likes: 23 |
I bought a very nice Belgian 12 guage double from a guy who bought a bunch of guns at an estate sale and didn't know what he had. He thought it had extractors, I could see it had ejectors. It was marked on the barrel with the name of a gunsmith Andreas Lauenroth--Budapest whom I assume sold the gun out of his shop. Markings on the water table and barrel flats show that the manufacturer was Manufacture Liegeoise D'Armes a Feu. So I've been trying to do research on it. I found a reprint of their 1910 catalog and found the model in there. Recently I found an online directory of Budapest from 1900 and found an entry for the gunsmith.
Nev (name) : Lauenroth Andreas Foglalkozas (occupation) : puskamuves (gunsmith) Kerulet (district) : IV. Cím (address): vaczi u. 60.
First of all, anyone familiar enough with Budapest to tell me whether vaczi utca in district IV was a good place to have gun shop?
And of course, more information on Manufacture Liegeoise D'Armes a Feu would be appreciated. And if anyone has ever heard of this gunsmith, that would be great.
Now here is the intriguing part. The shotgun has an engraved stock shield with a crown, below that are the initials DNGY with the D and Y kind of small and the N and G large and entertwined. I am guessing the crown indicates royalty, any ideas on how to find whose initials these are? I'd be happy to send pictures. I can't figure out how to post them.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,413 Likes: 313
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,413 Likes: 313 |
ML was a huge arms maker, similar to FN, and also produced SxS shotguns for sale under the name of distributors or gunshops http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...%20feu%20gb.htmYou may be able to identify the date of manufacture using this chart
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
PhysDoc - I've no information to help, only encouragement to continue. You have set foot to an intersting road. it may lead nowhere or to some enlightenmnet. No matter - you will be the better for your efforts.
See my PM for help with photos.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,774 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,774 Likes: 1 |
Good photos will tell much more, than thousand words.
Geno.
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,156 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,156 Likes: 23 |
Thanks for the list of dates, I've seen that before, mine doesn't have the letter codes so I assume that it was made before 1922 which would be consistent with the catalog and the directory. Thanks for the encouragement. Is there a thread on how to post photos?
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,156 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,156 Likes: 23 |
Here is a link to a photobucket account that I just created http://s283.photobucket.com/albums/kk315/PhysDoc/RevDocDrew, I think we may have a mutual acquaintance in common, do you know Dale Edmonds who refinishes damascus shotgun barrels? Dale is a good friend of mine and in fact he spotted that the this shotgun had ejectors and not extractors.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,413 Likes: 313
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,413 Likes: 313 |
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,156 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,156 Likes: 23 |
Thanks RevDocDrew, there is a lot of information summarized on that link you posted. My shotgun has 12 and C in the diamond, so it is between 1898 and 1924, it has the markings for acier cockerill with the rooster which I think only Manufacture Liegeoise D'Armes a Feu used.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,307
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,307 |
Not sure about your rooster marking, but acier cockerill simply means cockerill steel. Cockerill made the steel for barrel makers, much like Krupp did in Germany. I have seen many Belgian, French, Swiss, and even German guns with cockerill steel barrels and so marked. I am sure many other have as well.
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,156 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,156 Likes: 23 |
when I first started researching this shotgun on the internet, I googled "acier cockerill" and found this website http://piterhunt.ru/Library/satinskiy/kleyma/index.htmI had a Russian friend translate the pertinant portion. I've lost his e-mail, but the impression he gave me was that while cockerill steel was commonly used by many makers, like ChiefShotguns points out, only ML would use the rooster.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,413 Likes: 313
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,413 Likes: 313 |
Acier Cockerill was the trade mark of Cockerill of Ougree-Liege.http://www.hfinster.de/StahlArt2/archive-CockerillLiege-en.htmlManufacture d’Armes à Feu Liégeoise used this steel almost exclusively.
Last edited by revdocdrew; 04/17/08 05:42 PM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 331 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 331 Likes: 1 |
Here are your photos. Simply copy the image code beneath each photo in Photobucket,and paste in the reply box here. HTH, sv
Last edited by steve voss; 04/17/08 05:54 PM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,156 Likes: 23 |
Thanks Steve, lets see if I can get this to work here should be a picture of the stock shield, I really hope that someone might have some ideas as to the identity of the owner and here is a scan of the section of the 1910 catalog
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,774 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,774 Likes: 1 |
It says it's pegion gun and weight is 3,2 Kg in 12G. There are number ML guns in Bitkoff' cathalog 1910/11 and this type of boxlock with ejectors was worth aprx. 150-170 Rubles. Definetly it's not clunker and could be in hands of some Hungarian prince
Geno.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,274 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,274 Likes: 1 |
PhysDoc, I have a gun by the same maker (ML) it is a 12ga sidelock gun made in the early 1900s. There is some information on GournetUSA in the Belgian guns section, its URL is http://www.gournetusa.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=94Pictures of the gun I own is in that thread, also here, back about a year ago. ML was a very large company and made guns for a long time. Jim
Last edited by james-l; 04/18/08 01:18 AM.
I learn something every day, and a lot of times it's that what I learned the day before was wrong
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763 Likes: 8
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763 Likes: 8 |
I have a pre-WWI Mannlicher-Schoenauer M.1910 with a crowned monogramme so I did a bit of research on Nobility Crowns. Mine has seven points indicating a Baron. Nine points would be a Count, while a high crown with mitre was for Dukes and Princes. A crown with a lesser number of points, usualy 3-5, indicates a Nobleman (lower nobility). This is how it was used in central Europe (Germany, Austria, etc.), other localities may vary. Regards, Jani
Last edited by montenegrin; 04/18/08 06:55 AM.
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Posts: 1,156 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,156 Likes: 23 |
Hi Geno
Thanks for looking it up in the catalog, you wrote "There are number ML guns in Bitkoff' cathalog 1910/11 and this type of boxlock with ejectors was worth aprx. 150-170 Rubles"
it is as you can imagine hard to know what 150-170 Rubles was worth in 1910, or dollars for that matter. Are there any other shotguns in that catalog going for the same rate that may serve as a standard like a Parker, Lefever or Greener?
Montenegrin, thanks for sharing that research, since at the time Austria and Hungary were part of the same empire, I assume that the same rules apply. The crown on the stock shield on my has 5 points. Were you able to go any further to find the identity of the person who owned your M.1910?
Regards, Fred
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,775 Likes: 183
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,775 Likes: 183 |
PhysDoc:
I am curious if there are any other proof marks besides the Belgian marks like a "NP" intertwined w/ a "B" subset, "Crown" over "B.P." in a circle over "FN"-fust nelkuli or "Nem Golyonak"? As per a treaty of 1867, Hungary was a state w/in Austria and followed the June 23, 1891 proof rules as well as the voluntary semi-smokeless update of August 23, 1899. After WWI, Hungary and Czech went their own way keeping the old marks till at least 1928 and may not have seen major changes till 1971.
Kind Regards,
Raimey rse
Last edited by ellenbr; 04/18/08 08:47 AM.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763 Likes: 8
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763 Likes: 8 |
Fred, I'm quite sure Hungarians used the same system, as they were united in Austria-Hungary (1867-1918). No, I did not try to find the name of the Baron who used to own my Mannlicher-Schoenauer. I found the rifle in Germany a couple of years ago, with a new barrel installed by Waffen Frankonia Würzburg probably in the 1960s. So it could be Austro-Hungarian nobility, or German nobility. A future research maybe... With kind regards, Jani
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,156 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,156 Likes: 23 |
Ellenbr: to answer your question, there may be other proofmarks, the shotgun is actually with my father in Wisconsin, I've got pictures of the barrels and watertable but unfortunately the resolution just isn't high enough to read the proofmarks. Jani, Thank you for your kind words and input. I put a post on http://boards.ancestry.com/topics.royalty.austrohungariannobility/427.1/mb.ashxto see if that might turn up anything from the people who ancestry research, I will let you know if anything turns up. Jim I liked those pictures of your sidelock. I had never heard of this maker before I got this shotgun but I am impressed with the double I own. I gather from the very brief entries in "side-by-sides of the world for y2k" and the "Blue Book" that probably not many ended up in this country. With kind regards Fred
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