doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Systeme Leclercq Leclerc

During my two year tour down here in Souh Africa, I have seen a number of Belgium proofed .410 double barrel "Poachers" folding shotguns. They all seemed quite well made and and come in a number of different grades and configurations. A skeletonized buttstock being most notable.

Yes you guessed it I could not go home without one, well two actually. Export papers no problem. Import papers no problem, except when it came identifing the maker. I got on Little Gun BE and got one ID'd as a Georges Laloux. The other was tougher. We settled on Leclercq, Manufacture Liegiose d'Amres du Fues and ATF blessed me.

All this research however led me to a different conclusion. There are a lot a different Belgium companies listing these little shotguns as part of their inventory. But I don't believe all these identical guns were made by all these different makers.


That brings me to my question. What is the Systeme Leclerc and who really made all thses little guns?

The Double D:

Did there happen to be a "T." before "Leclercq"? And was it made in the late 19th Century? Leclercq turned out pinfire firearms in Liege between 1871 and 1874. Also, a 1937 "Midland Gun Company" catalogue has 2 that are of English Make and 2 that are not, but it doesn't give the country of origin.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

No the proofs on these two guns were in the 1950's. I did see several companies listing Le Clerc Systeme in the 1920's and it appeared to be these little guns.

DD, I think you're after Manufacture Liegeoise d'Armes a Feu, which simply means Liege Firearms Manufacturing. I believe they were in business at least through the 50's.

Actully what I am looking for is information on the LeClerc Systeme. MLdF is just one of then many companies that sold them.

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20l/a%20leclercq%20leon%20gb.htm

Leon LeClercq was an armour who was active from 1908-1940. Over the years he had shops in Belgium, Spain and France. I can find no record of him holding a patent of any type for sporting guns. I believe "LeClercq Systeme" may have been just good marketing, though I could be wrong.

The 1st .410 gun we have evidence of was proofed circa 1870's in London. It remained largely a British cartridge with American's preferring the 44-shot, aka 44XL, a 44-40 loaded with shot. On the continent they preferred a variety of other rounds. Around 1915 the 410 appeared here. It became popular here and in Europe in the 1920's.

These folding guns became very popular because of the advent of the bicycle and eventually the car. Because of this, most have seen hard use. They were marketed as ladies guns, boys guns, taxidermists gun, bicycle guns, etc.

Hope you enjoy the guns.

Pete

Thanks, Pete. These are neat little guns. Most I have seen down here are not in the bad of shape.

Leclerc must have had a hand in the marketing and sales of these little guns as a wholesaler as many other Gun Makers showed them in their inventory and sell them as Systeme LeClerc.

I paid a bit more than I wanted, but that's another story. Never take your wife gun shopping....When we went in to start dickering she was with me. She looked at the figured wood and color case on the solid stock model and used words like, cute adorable, pretty. I asked the guy how much each and he said a price. Before I could say "would you take...? She says we will take them...we had a talk about that later. None the less from the time we made the deal to the time I went to pick up the Rand to pay for them, the Rand dropped from 7.3 to the dollar to 8.3. So that saved me about $20 a gun...

lately I have heard her talking about "Her" gun...what do you mean we kimo sabe?

DD,

I believe you are correct about LeClercq.

Good story about buying the guns. I have had some similar experiences, much to my chagrin. On the upside, she enjoys shooting, so you always have a partner.

When you get a chance, post some pictures. I would enjoy seeing the guns.

Pete

Pictures are a couple months away. The guns have to go to the Exporter it Witbank for the export permiyd and then air freight to the US.

Well I have the guns now and as promised here are pictures. This is the one we couldn't clearly Identify and called Leclercq, Manufacture Liegiose d'Amres du Fues.

This gun shows some handling marks on the stock but everything else about it says little to no use. The Action is tight and stiff, and locks up tight. No "wiggle" anywhere. The chamber takes a 2 1/2 inch shell.

The gun is pretty light and when the wife shot it she didn't like it any more. Have to admit the little gun does jump a bit whne fired. Put a box of shells throught it and killed a bunch of gophers.

Any way here are the pictures of the one gun. I'll get pictures of the other one later

Now that is cute as a button!

Double D,

Thanks for posting those pictures. I always find these little guns interesting. Especially the early examples. Nice! You should hold on to that one.

I think as late as the 1960's Beretta was making a folder. So they have a long tradition in Europe.

Pete

I still would like to learn a bit more about the LeClerc System. If any one has any references, I am listening

If that is a small case 'u', it would be 1942 date of proof.

I took the buttstock off this after noon and found the makers mark on the tang.



This is the mark for Leon Rotsaert of Liege.

One of the inspector marks is star over R and that is Adolphe Delcommune who was an Inspector from 1952 to 1960.

I can not make that date stamp anything but a u and the date 1942.

Very well done!.

http://www.damascus-barrels.com/bp.html

Leon or Leonard ( I have 2 versions of his 1st name ) Rotsaert 1st registered that mark in 1920. I don't have a lot of information on him. If some one has more, I hope they will contribute it. The date mark is most likely μ(mu)1955.

Pete

I have looked and looked at that date code from every angle and with different type light and I couldn't make anythign but a u out of it. I also thought μ(mu) but can not pull that out of the date code. It would support Adolphe Delcommune mark being there, that is for sure.

I have a greater concern with the u mark. 1942 in Belgium? That was during height of the Nazi occupation...was it business as usual? Would gunsmiths have just gone about there business building sporting arms?

Then there is the question of what brought this rifle to South Africa?

Oh if only it could talk.

That is why I think it is not a u. It was not business as usual during either war in Belgium. During both they were occupied. Sporting arms were not the priority of the occuping force.

Africa makes alot of sense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Congo For a more critical acccount http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/leopold.html Many Belgian firms made fire arms for the Africa trade. How this piece made it to South Africa would be a fascinating history.

Pete

Tomorrow this little gun get's it's test, Goin to take it out hunting Huns. Wish me luck, I'll need it!

Well We didn't find any huns, but we did have a enjoyable walk out across the prairie and this little gun carried as light as a feather.