doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Safe shells forDamascus ?

I finally took the leap-I am impatiently awaiting my first Damascus SxS, a Remington 1894 12 ga! I would like to shoot it some, and have researched many of the former posts on the subject. For max safety and effectiveness for clays and grouse, which would you recommend, the Gamebore, Fiocchi, Polywad, or RST, and which particular variation (plastic vs. paper, cost,21/2 or 23/4, etc)? I would like to keep pressures below theoretical max, and verified pressures seem to be hard to come by.
I have shot the Gamebores in the past, and found them pretty dirty but effective. I liked the Polywads as well, but am unsure of the pressure. I also hear great things about the RST's. At some point I'll probably start reloading, but not right off. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks much
Rick

Rick - I'd just start loading right off the bat. There are several loads listed on the imr website with imr 7625 and PB powder that are under 5000 psi, and so labelled. If you load your own, not only can you apply the $ you will spend for factory ammo towards the equipment and components for loading, but you won't have to worry about checking each time you place an order for factory ammo to make sure the pressures haven't changed. The only factory ammo I have used in damascus guns is the Federal Vintage Gold Medal 12 ga 7/8 oz. load. These are available only from Midwayusa. They are 5000 psi. Not only will these work fine for you, but will leave you with empties that reload nicely. Last time I purchased they were about $75.00 per flat or $8.00 per box. Bill

I use the 2 1/2 inch Polywad Vintagers for targets and doves and the Polywad DoubleWides for quail. Both are effective, have no recoil, and are advertized to keep pressure levels at 5,000 PSI. I shoot them in a damascus Lefever, a Gr. 2 Smith and a Smith hammergun, and a couple of old English (a Reilly) and Belgian guns. Truth is I shoot the low pressure Doublewides in some guns that don't remotely need them because they're so effective on kick'em-up quail and so easy on recoil...Geo

I've only shot Gamebore Black powder shells in my 1894 AE.
They kind of go with the gun of this era.

I shoot black owder reloads (no special equipment needed) or Winchester AA Low recoil/noise or Xtra-lites in my 1878 Colt.
Steve

Loading shells for quanity shooting on a clay target range for use in warm weather is one thing. Loading them for hunting purposes where the weather might get a little "Nippy" is another. Personally for hunting use I seldom go below 7500 psi. I would run as fast as I could from any load with any brand of powder as slow burning as 7625 in a sub 5000 psi load if it got below about 70°F.

2-Piper,

Excuse my ignorance, as I am not well versed on loads/pressure, temps, etc... I just find a load I like and stick with it. With that said, tell me why you would be concerened about 5000 PSI loads in cold weather. I shoot the Federal Vintage Gold shells alot from Midway and would like to know your thoughts on this load in cold weather. I used them all last season on quail and didn't have any issues. What would the problem be on the loads you described?

I have used Fiocchi 2 3/4 x 1 , Gamebore XLR 1 oz etc in the 1894 Remington. 19 gr. Pb and 24 gr 7625 with 1 oz is also a nice low pressure reload with STS or AA cases.

What 2-Piper meant was that IMR 7625 just doesn't burn very well in colder temperatures. I shoot a lot of the stuff in the summer but when it comes bird season I switch to IMR PB, which seems to burn well down at least to temperatures that I'm wanting to head for the car--and the bar. For what it's worth, the 1894 is built hell for stout and you should have no concern about strength if the gun is in good condition.

My pet load for my 12g damascus guns uses a full length 2 3/4" Fed paper hull, Fed primer, 17.5 gr Clays, Fed 12S3 wad, 1 oz shot, star crimp, 1150 fps, 6500 psi measured in a 2 9/16" chamber in high 70F temps. I've only shot it down to low 40's F but it worked well on SD roosters. I think the Clays is faster than other powders being used by most damascus reloaders.

Per 2-p and JW. Part of the primer "fire" is absorbed in warming up the powder and hull base. There is a point for each load where too much "fire" is absorbed and not enough left over to raise the pressure and temperature in the hull "combustion chamber" to the point where the powder will reach normal pressure in the correct time. If the wad moves too much before the powder reaches needed pressure, the load will not reach pressure and you get a blooper; the pressure can't catch up to the expanding combustion chamber volume.

Joe,
I agree about 7625 in the Winter. I have also had trouble with it
in cold weather and in Paper cases. Pb is actually the better choice all around..

The 10 turkeys I killed this past fall and winter using IMR 7625 couldn't tell.

Dead Turkeys tell no tales, matey.

yOu got me on that one...

I've heard bloops from the Win factory light loads in cold weather. I've tried the low pressure Federal 7/8 oz loads from Midway, below freezing, with no apparent performance issues. They certainly sounded fine. But that's also rated as a 1200 fps load; I think the light Wins are down around 1000.

I have had the Win Featherlights give 'bloopers' on nice SoCal days at the skeet range. I think the advertised velocity is under 1000fps. But, I've had some barely spit the shot out the muzzle.

Joe pretty well summed up my concerns with the slower powders in cold weather. One simply needs to understand, these powders "Were Not Designed" for producing lower pressure, they "Were Designed" for pushing heavier loads @ full velocities without increasing pressures. My learning curve on this came about 25+ yrs ago. I had loaded up some 1¼oz #5 lead loads taken directly from the old DuPont handloaders guide @ about 1100 fps with 7k psi. I shot a few & checked a few paterns, wonderful load. Just to further check them out I went out & shot a few early season squirrels (I was predominately a .22RF man for squirrels) & they dispatched them with aploom. Opening day of duck season my son & I were hunting a wooded swamp. Temps had dropped into the high 20's & we had to break ice on the outer edges to get the boat back into the woods. Short story is those loads even @ 7K totally let me down. Every thing got out the bbl fortunately but without enough force to penertrate beyond the near side skin of a fairly short range greenhead.
"Slow Powders" get that way by increased grain size &/or heavier coatings of "Deterrants". Neither of these are conducive to good burning characteristics at low pressures & cold temps.
Anyone is of course free to ignore this at will, but please remember when, sometime in the future you have perhaps laid out a good deal of cash for a hunt of a lifetime, & upon a great opportunity, your gun says "Bloop", just let it cross your mind "2-Piper Told Me So".

I looked on the Federal website but couldn't find the "Vintage Gold". Is Midway having this load made specifically for them?

Yes.

My loads with 7625 are listed in the Lyman manual at 8500 psi and 1300 fps...I could see where a real low pressure load could give you problems in cold weather.

I didn't know what was going on with 7625 until I read 2-piper's experiences a few years ago. I switched to 700X for low-pressure and haven't looked back.

King,
I believe that 700x has a burnrate close to Hodgdon Clays that I use. When I started loading during my heavy skeet shooting yrs, I started with Unique because that's what I had laying around from my IPSC pistol shooting. When I got tired of looking like a coalminer coming home, I switched to 700x and later to Clays when it came out.

Before I begin to reload my own shotshells, I am reading books, posts, etc., before I even purchase the reloading press. A guy at the local skeet/trap club will sell me a MEC 600 jr. to get started. I am reading this with interest as I also have damascus bbl guns and I want to keep pressures between 5000 and 6000. The first reloading book I purchased was yesterday, "The Complete Reloading Manual for the 12 Gauge Shotshell" published by Loadbooks USA, Inc. On the cover it claims to have 10,000+ proven, tested loads. Is this an okay book? Are there better ones? So far in this post, I've seen 7625, PB, and 700x powders listed. Are these considered "slow burn" powders? Just looking to get started reloading. Thanks for the help and knowledge shared here.

King, this may be true with the 12 gauge.
But SR-7625 is my go to powder for low pressure 16 gauge loads, and Unique for the 20 gauge. However, I don't do alot of shooting in below freezing temps.

Red,
The burnrates of powders can be generalized but not 'nailed down'. In general, the burnrate charts out there on the web and in loading manuals will show 7625 being slowest of the three you mentioned and 700x being fastest of those three. One of many burnrate charts can be found here. http://home.hiwaay.net/~stargate/powder/powder.htm

Take all of these charts with a grain of salt. Also, make sure you know what maker of the powder is for the pressure/velocity data you're using. There are many numbers assigned to powders that are the same from maker to maker but pressures/burnrates can vary. One makers 4350 is not the same as another's.

If you're loads are 1 oz or less in a 12g, I see no reason to use powders as slow as 7625. Just my opinion.

Thank you, Chuck. There seems to be alot more reloading data for Win. AA hulls rather than Rem. STS. I have 250 Rem. STS hulls to begin with, and no AA's. Does anyone know of a book or source, or have data for Rem STS's to move a 7/8 to 1 oz load, 1100 to 1200 fps, with 5000-6000 psi.?
Thanks

Yes - Again, look at the IMR website. I see one load at 5200 psi @1200 fps, and there are others close to 6000. Bill

Bill, I did not even think to look at the website for info. Thanks for the help.

There are several factors which make a slower powder more effecient in a smaller gauge as 16/20 than in the 12gauge. First & generally speaking you are using the same primer to light a smaller charge in a smaller space, thus better ignition. Second & this also isa generalization, but usually the smaller gauge will be loaded heavier in proportion & will also have more bore friction even for the same proportionate load. In proportion to a 1oz load in 12ga a 16 would have a 13/16oz load & a 20ga just over 11/16 (23/32 actually). These gauges are seldom loaded that light but the 12ga is quite often used with a 1oz load. Keep in mind though the 7625 load which let me down was a 1¼oz one in 12ga, though it was loaded in the old Rem SP hull with paper base wad & a mild primer (CCI 157). "IF" you feel you just have to go to those extremely low pressure loads with a slow powder use the lowest pressure you can with a hot primer & hot case (AA etc). Personally any gun I did not trust with a 7500 psi load when I went afield I would leave on the rack at the house. 1oz of shot @ 1200 fps is going to stress the action, stock etc etc about the same regardless of max chamber pressure. The max chamber pressure is primarily going to affect the Chamber walls. Except for very early guns built before introduction of smokeless, some of which are fairly light in the breeches, the chamber is about the strongest part of a shotgun. Those on which it is not I personally reserve for only light loads of BP.

Miller,
Add to that the differences in volume expansion/time ratios of the smaller bore vs. larger bore.

Accurate Arms published a reloading booklet in 2003 with "cowboy action" and target loads 7/8 and 1 oz using AA Nitro 100 and yielding pressures in the 4900 to 6000psi range. In the 2007 manual pressures appear considerably higher.

jack

I used to use alot of IMR 7625 in the 5000 psi range. But I have since moved to Solo 1000 and Nitro 100 and keep presures in the high 5000 to 6800 psi range. Maybe I am living on the dangerous side. My Bakers have consumed 1000's of these. Maybe I have been lucky.