doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Presidential candidate supports INDIVIDUAL RKBA

Oh, come on, Rocketman! The World Health Organization's "agenda"? The University of Maine's "agenda"? The Economist's "agenda"? Family Magazine's "agenda"?

There are no data anywhere that contradict these facts:

- health care in the US costs more per capita, and a much larger percentage of GDP (US 15.4%), than any other nation in the world (Euro area 9.6%);

- more than 40 million Americans have no health care plan;

- US life expectancy is lower, and infant mortality higher, than most countries with universal health care;

- in the US, administration costs for private health care are significantly higher than administrative costs for government-run programs (see http://www.cahi.org/cahi_contents/resources/pdf/CAHIMedicareTechnicalPaper.pdf )

If you can find any legitimate source that contradicts any of this, please post it here. I have been citing my sources - what are yours?

As for your "personal experience," I'd be interested in knowing what experience you have had with universal health care plans.

Germany during two years of residence as a private citizen (2001-02). I was not impressed with the "universal" part.

You want me to believe tha media, schools, and WHO have no agenda? I'm listening.

Well, if we're going to go with universal health care (why? because it's a "right", or because it just seems the right thing to do?), then how about universal housing? A roof over every head. Universal employment. And a chicken in every pot. It seems that we need to draw a line somewhere, because eventually, all of this universal stuff runs into personal responsibility--and personal responsibility suffers as a result.

I'll bet any of my guns Americans will get it, maybe before I die if I eat my greens. I'm pushing 76.

I doubt that you're really listening, Rocketman. But if you are, please note that CAHI, the outfit that published the report I cited above ( http://www.cahi.org/cahi_contents/resources/pdf/CAHIMedicareTechnicalPaper.pdf ) does have an agenda - it's a lobbying outfit for the private health insurance industry! I included a private insurance source to counter your allegation of bias. But even after juggling the books (by not counting the cost of commissions and profits!) their study admits that private insurance costs more to administer than Medicare.

Yet the nay-sayers keep alleging that gov't insurance would cost more - and produce nothing to support their arguments. No data, no studies, just uninformed denial and willful ignorance. The facts are there, and no one has produced any evidence to the contrary.

Jack, let me throw a few random thoughts and facts your way.
Physicians are the only business people I know of who are not allowed to set their own rates for services rendered. Medicare sets rates each year and insurance companies negotiate reimbursements to doctors based on those rates. Here we find two problems along with two solutions. Government is interfering with the free market and insurers are taking up to 25% of health care costs in administation and profit. Eliminate both and reduce cost.
The cost of meeting federal requirements and malpractice raise the cost of care. Reduce or eliminate both. As an example/ I have a friend here in town who is a neurosurgeon. He has three partners and two PA's. The six of them who are billable have to support an unbillable office staff of 26 to 28 people. Much of this is cost of compliance.
We also currently have a rationed form of universal health care in place. If an individual meets criteria ranging from income level to unmarried and pregnant to length of disability etc. their health care is provided free.
As one last note, emergency rooms across the country average collecting slightly less than 40% of what they bill. Doesn't that tell you that people are being treated regardless of ability to pay? It is actually illegal for a doctor to ask about ability to pay in this country, at lest in an emergency situation and they can be sued and sanctioned for doing so.
Once again I will say that changes made but our approach is different. I do not want a government that takes care of me, I want a government that allows me my right to take care of myself. Send me an e mail at pburke106@aol.com. I am coming through Minneapolis in June on my way to fish in Ontario.

Jack,
I appreciate all the information you have provided and I am sure it will guide you in the direction you choose. Like others I have experience and still have family under state run health care. It has good and bad points as most universal/state run organizations have. I have never tried to compare only one aspect of a government under socialism as some do. The gun control folks look at Japan as did the auto industry of years gone by. After we have found the culture from the groud up is different enough to be less than a good comparison. As in any good debate we use what supports our point of view as I have. My short life and an exposure of four years in the Pacific and another four years in Holland with extended family in Norway all leads me to be cautious about comparisons by any cause no matter how well versed they seam. This is only one more opinion for thought.
Best,
Ron

Here's more fact, from The New England Journal of Medicine:

"In 1999, health administration costs totaled at least $294.3 billion in the United States, or $1,059 per capita, as compared with $307 per capita in Canada. After exclusions, administration accounted for 31.0 percent of health care expenditures in the United States and 16.7 percent of health care expenditures in Canada.

"Conclusions: The gap between U.S. and Canadian spending on health care administration has grown to $752 per capita. A large sum might be saved in the United States if administrative costs could be trimmed by implementing a Canadian-style health care system."

Still waiting for some facts from the nay-sayers.

Jeezum, Jack, you are one hard-headed SOB. Why do keep wanting to confuse us with FACTS?
Best regards,
Will

Jack,
Once again I am amazed at your facts . They can hardly be doubted as facts. I guess I still have reservations but they are only mine. I always compare cost when I can and opt for a choice I feel comfortable with. I do find cost is only one element that sways my choices. The selection by cost only reminds me of the submariner wondering if the sub-safe valves were done by the lowest bidder or the pilot wondering about the last engine contract or an astronaut and so on. I guess not sharing your conclusions makes me a nay-sayer. Then again I am slow in changing much like our Republic.
Best,
Ron