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If you think American Healthcare is expensive and bad now, wait till it is a "Fundamental Right" - oh boy.

Boy it would be nice if the government government could supply the best healthcare and spread that cost over all the taxpayers. That sounds like the best arrangement...except, then the government would be deciding what is the best healthcare, what procedures and surgeries are acceptable, and how much the doctor is allowed to make. Then, the rich people would hire the best doctors to treat them on the side. The smartest doctors would not go for the government deal and just work for private pay. We'd be stuck with the second rate doctors and the government deciding what treatment is best. And, you better live the lifestyle the government approves of, or you will not be eligable for even the second rate care.

DeeKay, you haven't been paying attention. We're already stuck with private insurance companies "deciding what procedures and surgeries are acceptable, and how much the doctor is allowed to make." And while the HMOs and drug company executives pile up the profits, we are paying more for health care, and getting less for it,than everyone in countries that have universal health care.

No one in Europe has to re-mortgage his house, max out his credit cards or get handouts from neighbors to pay for needed health care. The fact that an American on this board had to do so reflects shame on all of us and our country.

You are right about one thing, though: the rich people will get the best care. They do everywhere. Always have, always will. Nothing wrong with that.

King, the point isn't whether Korea was a "draw". I guess we occupied South Korea as much as we're occupying Iraq, after driving the NK's and Chicoms back across the border, and it's both free and democratic. Works for me. We've also helped to establish free and democratic states in the Balkans (not sure how "Western" they are, both Bosnia and Kosovo being majority Muslim). Looks to have worked in the first case, and hopefully the second will as well, without serious fighting. War can have many faces, and it isn't likely to be the same everywhere.

Mark, I'd check those "independent" (how far left are they?) sources against "official" sources, and as an intel guy, if I questioned either, I'd accept nothing more nor less than halfway between. Don't think you can get to a million, even if you add in the Gulf War. And "displaced" is a whole lot different than "dead". Iraq is a serious situation, but it's impossible to have an intelligent discussion if you accept everything the harshest critics of the war put out as absolute truth--just as much as if you accept everything the government says as absolute truth. The best idea is to question both and look for solid evidence.

It appears that the most vehement condemnation of universal health care comes from people who don't know anything about it.

Open your eyes and look at the facts, postoak! http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf Health care is better and cheaper in countries where it is a fundamental right. If the French and Italians and Spanish can deliver better health outcomes for less money, why can't we?

Just what does all this have to do with our right to keep and bear arms?? That's what this thread is SUPPOSED to be about.
Jim

Jake,

Let me ask this: Where does is stop? Where do we, as those that choose those that govern, say Enough is enough? We have established many social programs that have proven dismal failures.

I go back to the US Constitution and the framers of that sacred document. There are no provisions in there for a national health care system. As I stated previously, I am a strict Consitutionalist, if it ain't in the directions, don't do it.

"Hand a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will never go hungry."

Obesity, sloth, inactivity, poor diet, smoking, excessive drinking, drug abuse and other bad lifestyle CHOICES seems to be behind the majority of chronic health issues facing our citizens. If there were more attention towards prevention vs treatment after the fact, I may be able to support that. How about FORCING, via the FCC TV programs and free advertisements promoting good health? Do this during the Mindless reality programs that have the couch potatoes in this country so enthralled. Put pressure on celebs like Britany, Paris, Lindsay, Kiefer and others to do FREE public service announcements and programs as part of their "rehabilitation"?

I have other ideas and suggestions that follow the self help and educational track, much through the private sector, churches and the like. THAT will make America better. Teaching people to take responsibility for their own actions WILL make America better. Getting people off their dead ass and excersizing WILL Make America better. Slapping the hand that is held out for a freebie instead of filling it with MY hard earned money and falso hope WILL make America better. Teaching that Hard work and Education is more important than American Idol WILL make American better. Reducing the size of our Government(s) and lowering taxes weaning people off of social programs WILL Make America better. I can go on. Finally, by making AMERICA better, Americans become stronger and better also.

Look back through history and see what AMERICANS have done...... on their own without the Government to support them. They moved west as a way to better themselves. Came from foreign lands with nary a dollar in their pocket to become multi-millionaires. They were the ancesters of slaves that became scientists, doctors, clergy, judges,generals etc by hard work and fighting the prejudice and bigotry to do it. They were and are soldiers that fought and died for our freedom and to protect the rights of those among the population that hate and despise them. These people Made and Make America Better.

The more you do for someone the less they will do for themselves. Nope, it's time to say NO. That, or how about we all live in a collectiive society where no one gets paid, no one has to pay for anything, but we all have exactly the same thing, same cubicle to live in, same little Trabant to drive, same clothes to wear, same food to eat, no McDonalds, Wendys, KFC Taco Bell.......... Same Health care, same dentist, no choices, have to register if we move to another county, have to get permission to move from state to state. We all have the same gas allowance and the government offical tucks you in and night while handing you your "binky".

Nope, that is NOT what America is all about. Time we ALL did took inventory of what America really is and what it meanss to us. Look inside yourself and ask What Have I Done for My Country Lately? What Have I done for my fellow man lately? Bet the majority that do take that time, may not like the answers.

You asked, "Why should Americans not have the collective security of good cheap health care?" BECAUSE it ain't in the DIRECTIONS. No one ever said it would be fair on my birth certificate, all it said is that I have the same chance. ................ and the use of the word, "Collective" scares the hell out of me. Sounds like the Borg or, Mao.

Sorry, but to quote that old maritime philosopher, "I yam what I Yam".

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Section. 8. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States"

I think basic health care could be included under "general Welfare." However, as only an army and navy are mentioned in the Constitution, I suppose we should eliminate the Marines and Air Force.

Postoak, there's more than one way to look at a fundamental right, in my view. I don't think of the poor and miserable as free peoples--anywhere. Cuba may have higher international recognition than Canada, with a third of our population and only twice the size of my province of Nova Scotia. It is a "poor" country compared to ours.

Cuba is repressive on legal rights---expression, protest but easing 19 months under Raul Castro--- but a giant on the social side of rights: low unemployment, universal healthcare, best in the developing world, lower infant mortality than US, free education, 30,000 doctors working in 72 countries around the world.

Are 47 million Americans denied a fundamental right? That's for you to choose. Are having a job, access to healthcare and education integral to the human imbodiment of freedom? Cuba thought so. A papal annuncio told my father if it takes 100 years to make Cuba's revolution Christian, it will be worth it. For 400 years his church provided little to the Cuban people. The Pope and Castro had something going.

My brother last year went to his new doctor in the fishing village where we grew up. When it came time to fill out a prescription for his debilitating chronic disease, the Cuban doctor asked if he wanted his usual pills from a well-known pharmaceutical company or a generic of the same. Difference: $500 to $33. There may be a lesson there from Cuba's healthcare model.