doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Additional Questions on Alfred Hollis 10 Gauge

I went back and looked at the Hollis 10 gauge hammergun again on Saturday. The owner wasn't there and the guy behind the counter still didn't have an asking price or a suggestion as to what it might be. I told him my sources suggested the gun was worth $1,000, but didn't get a reaction.

The proof marks are definitely Birmingham. When I inspected the gun again, I noticed three other marks I cannot identify. The first was the letters "ST" stamped on the bottom rib about three inches forward of the breech. The second was the letters "BIW&Co" (or perhaps "BIW&Oo" - the letters in this stamping were extremely small and hard to read, even with a magnifying glass), which was stamped on both barrels and the water table. The third was the number "051", which was stamped on the left barrel under the "BIW&Co" stamping.

Any suggestions as to what these marks mean? Thanks.

Back to the top. Doesn't anyone recognize these marks?

Remington40x:

I have put some effort into looking and have come up w/ very little. At Galazan is a trade label: https://secure.netsolhost.com/connecticu...p?idCategory=65 which is similar to this post, †A. HOLLIS & SON .500 (3 1/4in.) NITRO EXPRESS BOXLOCK EJECTOR DOUBLE RIFLE, serial no.15056, 24in. nitro chopperlump barrels with matt sight rib, open leaf sights for 200, 300, 400 and 500 yards, ramp mounted block foresight with lift-up moon sight, tubes engraved 'A.HOLLIS, LONDON RIFLE MAKERS TO H.R.H.THE DUKE OF CONNAUGHT', 3 1/4in. chambers, treble-grip action with removable striker bars, manual safety, action engraved with naïve depictions of elephants, buffalo and lion, scooped-backed action, 15 1/2in. well-figured pistolgrip stock including 1/2in. rubber recoil pad, cheekpiece, sling eyes, metal pistolgrip-cap, weight 12lbs. 10oz. in its leather case
The history of the weapon prior to 195 9/60 is unknown
The rifle was discovered in a cycle/gun shop called Tatos Brothers in the little farming town of Gwelo (now Gweru - Zimbabwe) in what was then Southern Rhodesia where it was offered for sale on behalf of a farmer (name unknown) and it was purchased by Mr. Paul Coetsee in 1959-60
Mr. Coetsee worked for the Game Department in Southern Rhodesia. His responsibilities included the control of problem animals and the control of the spread of the Tsetse Fly disease. Between 1964 and 1970 the .500 Hollis was to be used almost exclusively on elephant control in the then Southern Rhodesian Game department. On the southern banks of the Kariba Dam especially, elephant carriers of the Tsetse fly had to be controlled to limit the spread of the disease and in the Gokwe and Omay Tribal Trust areas, problems with bull elephant crop raiders kept the rifle in regular usage.
The .500 rifle became well known to VIP foreign guests of the then Prime Minister Mr. Ian Douglas Smith during hunting safaris conducted in the Gokwe area. Among the dignitaries was the late sir Archibald James from London whom hunted his last elephant (accompanied by Mr. Coetsee) at the age of about 80 years. The late Prime Minister, John Voster of South Africa and many dignitaries from the USA, Germany and South Africa were also accompanied during hunts using the same rifle
Of his rifle, Mr. Coetsee said 'the Hollis .500 served me well, having put down about 1000 elephants with brain shots, many buffalos and a considerable number of lions. Bull elephant that were shot with this rifle ranged from 50lbs. per side to 100lbs. per side.'
at: http://www.auction-net.co.uk/viewAuction...befeae5e80cb12b as I found a similar post about a guy's father owning one I. Hollis in India in the 1950s or 1960s: "8/22/01
Mark, Perth, W. A. , Australia


Isaac Hollis & Sons, Birmingham - Double Rifle - .400/450 - 28" - Blue -
For H. R. H. The Duke of Connaught My father owned this double hammer rifle while in India during the 50's and 60's, was it made for the son of Queen Victoria for an Indian safari he went on? Were Hollis and Sons noted gunsmiths and do you have any info on them?" from http://oldguns.net/q&a8_01.htm which seems to muddle I. Hollis & A. Hollis. Or did the Duke just want a Hollis, either Issac or Alfred B.??



A A. Hollis 0.470 Nitro Double here at Cabelas: http://www.cabelas.com/gun-inventory---sidney---fine-rifle---hollis470.shtml

and one at H & H: http://www.hollandandholland.com/~newyork/usedguns/index.htm

And some info on an A. Hollis similar to yours: "My shotgun is a Hollis and sons, London, 12 gauge side by side, with the words "laminated steel" engraved on the barrel. Alfred Hollis stamped in the breech along side the patent number 509. the numbers 8454 engraved on the trigger guard and the numbers 9018 stamped underneath between the barrels. along with the number 13 stamped underneath on both barrels. I have had no success online trying to find a model or even a match to any of the above descriptions. This gun was passed down to me from my grandfather who did not know anymore about it than i do. I am very interested in knowing the history, range of value, and if nothing else, the model number. Thank you for any and all help that you can lend." from http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?p=32565 but I think that I. Hollis & A. Hollis were a different set.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey:

Thanks very much. That's some very interesting information.

I'm beginning to wonder if the BIW&Co stamp might be an importer's mark, although why one would stamp both barrels and the water table eludes me.

The .470s at Cabela's and Holland & Holland are both beautiful, but they're a little bit prouder of them than I could dream of being at this point in my life. There is not much call for a .470 in southeastern Pennsylvania, and my safari funds are currently devoted to the payment of college tuition for three boys.

Rem

Remington40x:

I was trying to differentiate between I. Hollis & A.B. Hollis first & foremost. I would guess the "BlW&Co" to be maker/contractor who either made the double or furnished it in the white. Apparently in addition to the "Acme" there was also a "Victory" and other names can be found here: http://www.firearmsmuseum.org.au/ColonialGunsmiths/WebPropGuns.htm .

And if you have some time, you might want to peruse thru the listings at this site: http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cibmanuals/files/TIME/HTML/gunmakecodes.htm
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

There is always an extensive history behind these English guns, and that A. Hollis rifle really has one. I'm reading about a Scottish hunter in Africa back in 1847, with his 'Old Friend' a double barreled James Purdey rifle, however since he is Scottish he is becoming more partial to his two grooved J. Dickson double barreled rifle. That's what I like about the English guns, they have a history about them that is well documented.
There is a lot more information on Isaac Hollis then there is about Alfred. I cannot find the relationship between these two, whether or not they were related. Also, did Alfred Hollis build his own guns/rifles or did someone else build it, such as Webley & Scott. I'm still looking!!
All the best

Here is a small bit of information,
Alfred Burdett Hollis, who describes himself as a 'Commercial Representative of I. Hollis & Son, Birmingham. His grandfather and great uncle established the dynasty of Hollis gunmakers in Birmingham. These original partners separated to produce two parallel Hollis firms. Perhaps the best known of these was that of Isaac Hollis who was, still not absolutely certain, a second cousin to Alfred.
Still looking for more info!!

treglig1958:

Good Bird-doggin!! I may stand corrected again as I would have bet they were not of relations. Any indication as to where or who made Alfred Burdett Hollis' longarms? Did he take 1/2 of the craftsmen?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Raimey!!!, After reading your post and the history of that A. Hollis double rifle I became very interested in finding out more about this maker, but I really had to dig for that tidbit, maybe now I do know how a dog feels!!!!
I can't understand why there is so little information on the Hollis family described as a Birmingham Dynasty and especially when you consider the importance of Birmingham in the English gun trade.
I still haven't found out if Alfred Hollis built his own guns/rifles but I'm not giving up!!!
We need someone from England to come in!!
All the best

As I said on 40X's other thread, that isn't much of a mystery. I've owned an A. Hollis & Son nitro double rifle for 20+ years and so have always paid attention to the guns bearing that name, and have been researching the British "makers to the trade" for some years as well. Geoffrey Boothroyd and I kicked around A. Hollis & Son a fair bit many years ago, and additional information I've gotten since then has only confirmed what he thought at the time.

Yes, there's no question that Alfred and Isaac were cousins. Boothroyd was quite certain that there was no connection between the firms though. It's clear enough that their guns didn't come from the same source. The A. Hollis guns are generally of a higher standard than those of I. Hollis.

There can be no question than A. Hollis marketed himself as an express rifle specialist, especially double rifles. A. Hollis express rifles are fairly common, and their smoothbores unusual. Between myself and three friends, there are four A. Hollis & Son double rifles in my hometown alone, and I can think of where four or five are listed for sale right now. I've seen a small handful of their shotguns and ball and shot pieces listed over the last 20 years, but have never had one in my hands.

I don't know if Alfred ever made any of his own guns or not - a number of successful, well respected names did not. By the nitro era, he was certainly primarily a retailer. Identification of the true maker of a retailed gun is sometimes impossible, and sometimes so simple that it's impossible to make a mistake. The latter is usually the case with A. Hollis double rifles. I've seen only one that wasn't from Harry Leonard. The .500 in the link above, No. 15056, is a typical Leonard built Hollis. It is of almost identical appearance to a Jeffery of the same vintage because Leonard was building most of Jeffery's DRs then also. Leonard's serial number was stamped on the lower rib about .75" in front of the loop. I didn't see that gun in time to check the number before the auction. Given the Hollis serial number (I think this gun is from 1905-1906), Leonard's would have been in the high three to low four digit range. The .470 for sale at Cabela's is strange. It's certainly not from Leonard, and the serial number is not A. Hollis & Son's.

A. Hollis & Son disappeared from the directories in 1919, and probably ceased to trade during WWI. I've never seen one of their guns with the date code stamp introduced in 1921, or the chamber length stamp introduced in 1925. The highest number gun in my notes is No. 15153, a .470 bearing Leonard number 1962, from 1915. Holland & Holland currently has this rifle for sale.

I can't speak for who made A. Hollis & Son's shotguns, as I've never had one in front of me. Sherman Bell had a ball & shot piece in a DGJ article a while back that looked like Scott.