doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Damascus explained

In "Principles: The Manufacture Iron & Steel" by I. Lowthain Bell, 1884, he states "In the work of Agricola, bearing the date of 1556, there is no allusion to the Blast-furnace; the only arrangement described for obtaining iron being a kind of Catalan hearth, in which the product, as we have already seen, is malleable and not cast iron. About 1618, as we learn from Dud Dudley's Metallum Martis, this unfortunate pioneer in the manufacture of iron was engaged in his attempts to substitute pit coal for charcoal;..."

And regarding Catalan furnaces: "No serious attempt has been made to revive in this country the obsolete and almost forgotten Catalan furnace-much less its more humble predecessor, the low hearth of Asia and of Africa."

"I have had no opportunity of inspecting such a furnace as that previously referred to, and described to me by Colonel Grant;"(Dr. Percy is also mentioned as a source) ... "Some Catalan furnaces, which I had an opportunity of examining in North Carolina, were near 3 feet from back to front...."

So what was North Carolina producing, rail?

And also, I found patent No. 9,999 - Thomas Warner, of Chicopee, Mass - Improvement in Twisted Gun Barrels-Patented September, 6th, 1853. Did he make barrels himself was was he employed by another?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Interesting material. I get lost in this long thread and often have to go back and search to see if a subject has been covered.
Thanks for digging up the Warner patent. He was briefly mentioned, but not his patent. This is a partial replay of an earlier quote.

From Fire-Arms Manufacture 1880. U.S. Department of Interior, Census Office.


Some early "sources" can drive you mad. Given Lowthain Bell's statements and the official Government document, one would have no idea what Warner was really up to. I wonder if Mr Bell even knew of Ethan Allen's work or some of the barrels that had been made by Parker. But we at least have a clue that Warner was making barrels for a government contract.

Warner provides no drawings with his application: http://www.google.com/patents?id=PAxLAAAAEBAJ&dq=9999+Warner&jtp=1
At least they are not online. A couple interesting statements though from his application.

What a perfect description of the role that damascus played!

Then he makes a some what confusing statement;

He would have had no way to know that he was duplicating a well known technique used by Islamic barrel makers. Figiel has illustrations of these solid bar barrels. The Islamic barrels makers were willing to absorb the waste to produce a stronger barrel. Exactly when wrapping a ribbon around a mandrel made it's appearance is still elusive.

By the way, where did you find a copy of Bell?

Pete

PeteM:

Thanks for the insight and I too was concerned that it was somewhere on a previous post on this long thread.

Bell- Elder's bookstore in Nashville. My father-in-law, until his passing in 2006, was a rare book collector. So, today while visiting my spouse's family, I made the rounds to the rare bookshops with the little time I had. I was reluctant to purchase it, but I couldn't pass up an original. I also picked up "Patent Office Report Part 1 1853" as well as "Report on the Commissioner of Patents for the year 1861." No photo on Warner's patent, just verbiage. Bell- it's going to take me a little time to scan thru it. But Bell covers all the processes you mention plus Krupp on removing phosphorous from pig iron.

What about the North Carolina Catalan furnace ref?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Dr. Drew:

This is an additional post just for you. Bell-ref above-"It is believed that the most ancient method known for making steel is an invention of Hindoo origin. In its fragments of wrought iron, made in the rudest way direct from the ore, by means of charcoal, was melted in pots in the presence of vegetable matter. The resulting steel is known in the market as "wootz," and containing as it does nearly 1.75 per cent, of carbon, possesses great hardness."

"Many years ago I witnessed the manufacture of steel in Rhenish Prussia as performed in a small refining fire. The hearth was about 2 feet square, the fuel used was a mixture of charcoal with a little coke, and the material treated was the pig iron and spiegle-eisen of the country." ......" ...and the presence of manganese in the spiegel enabled the German manufactures of Siegerland to furnish a very high class quality of steel in the primitive appliances referred to."

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Good for you on purchasing those books.

In the Catalan furnace (circa 700 AD) iron ore and charcoal were charged vertically in the top, resulting in a "loupe" or ball of iron which was "hooked out and hammered into a bloom".
http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/def_en/articles/steel_collector/early_progress.html

No clue if this type of furnace was still in use during the 19th century in the US. Why anyone would choose such an outdated method?
For more steel making links: http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/def_en/kap_5/advanced/t5_1_5.html

I just picked up: FIGHTING IRON, A Metals Handbook for Arms Collectors by Art Gogan. It should arrive in about a week.

I was thinking the other day. It would be great if some one developed a simple glossary for some of this. Between wootz, laminated, twist, Bessemer, damascus, etc some times my head spins.

Pete

Thanks Raimey and amen Pete. This is a good start
http://www.davistownmuseum.org/PDFs/GlossaryOfFerrousMetallurgyTerms.pdf
but we need a glossary for 'pattern welded steel' production 'from the beginning' including/comparing terms used from the Far East to India to the Middle East, Russia (bulat), Eastern and Western Europe and England.
(Ya' think we could talk Bro. Larry into this one right after his trip to the Belgian patent archives and the Midlands industrial museums? )

Drew,

How about this? A clear definition for Laminated, Twist, Damascus and Pattern welded Damascus. Just for starters.

Any one care to take stab at it?

Pete

I feel like Justice Potter Stewart when the Supreme Court was watching dirty movies in 1964 trying to define "pornography":
"I know it when I see it"
We could start with everything that at least LOOKS like "twist":
Twist damascus
Wire twist
Stub twist
Stub damascus
Twopenny/Wednesbury Skelp
Threepenny Skelp
Canons tordus
Tors ou torches
Ruban tordu tin
Bamdnak
Pointelle' twist
Ribbon damascus
What the Belgians called 'Laminated' but was twist, but they also make true 'Laminated steel'
Maybe it would be better to just figer' out how they made the stuff

(I think the 'bloom' might be the key )

Very good Drew. How do we begin to create definitions?

If I take a pile of scrap. Chop it up. Heat it red hot. Hit with a hammer, is that damascus? Didn't say I was wrapping it around anything. Didn't say I was making a barrel from it. What if the scraps are homogenous? No iron / steel mix. I want to say that the product from the above process is not damascus. But then, I have to throw out all wootz barrels.

So maybe it is damascus if there is a visible pattern?

Pete

Fellas:

I know that it's early on, but where are the pics, pics, pics...., that go with the verbiage???

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse