doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com help with a Bayard Arms side by side

That's an excellent question...and squarely based in rational fact finding...but there is no singular reference for this information...but that doesn't mean the information is not all over the place...Pieper specialized in that low end market, as you know from Sears, Wards, and other catalogs (1890-1915). In fact they were Belguim's largest exporter of sporting guns by far during this period. Pieper specialized in what we call "Hardware Store guns" meaning that they would supply near any sizable dealer with unmarked guns so that the dealer could market them after affixing his own name...I have always suspected that companies like Sears where resposible for affixing misleading names like Moore, Richards, and Barker. Not Pieper!

That being said, when (Sears marked) T Barkers not only have interchangable parts with the same era Bayards, sometimes they even utilize the same little tab for attaching the OSH locks to the action that is indigenous to Pieper and Bayards only. It's also well known that very few Belgian manufacturers had the drop forges and the human resources to produce the volume of guns that where imported from Liege to America. Those Barkers don't interchange parts with any ML based actions or FN based actions, leaving only Belgium's largest sporting gun exporter as the final suspect.

As I said before...these are general observations of a particular era in their 100 year history (the era of tens of thousands of JABC's being imported to America)

note...it's interesting that your list of trademarks lists "Centaure" as one of their trademarks...this is also the trademark of ? sp? Fabrique Armes de Unies, Hanquet, and Continental...all trademarks that I have suspected of being later Pieper based actions

It is also well to note that "Patent #488,366 Dec 20, 1892" (US) was not for the bls, but the lock mechanism (not bolts). His US patent #246,195 Aug 23, 1881 covered his original style of "Mono-Blocked" (To my knowledge he never used that term) bbl joining. This was the style where the tubes were inserted from the breechs of the block & have a stepped appearance. These are often found on guns marked Original Diana. Also to my knowledge he did not have a patent which covered the method of joining shown on the bbls marked Modified Diana. On this method the tubes stepped & were inserted into the front of the block. On one I have the tubes only go about halfway through the block with a joint in mid-chamber. I am not positive but highly suspect they are threaded into the block.
Also not positive, but highly suspect Berretta "Coined the Term" MonoBlock.

Pieper could not use Hanquet without registering the name. I have no documentation that they ever did. I count 12 firms / individuals named Hanquet beginning in 1826 to 1955. None registered the trademark Centaure.

What we are talking about is international law. Belgium was a signatory to the Madrid Arrangement of 1891. This was a revision of the 1879 law.

They could not simply grant trade marks as they pleased. No individual or firm would be irresponsible enough to simply appropriate a trade mark. Once registered in Belgium all brands were registered at the International Bureau in Berne.

The Bureau is still in existence today. It has evolved into WIPO. http://www.wipo.int/portal/index.html.en Belgium has maintained the historical data as best they could, through numerous wars and floods.

I could care less whether an individual maker produced the guns of the Czar, Henry VIII, etc or whether they produced junk. I do care about understanding the technology, why it developed along the paths it did and what were the constraints. I make no pretrense to know all things Belgian. That would be foolish. I do care about being able to properly document the commerce that took place. The Belgians were the largest producers of firearms for export for well over 100 years. We have English reports that state this. So, to my mind, it makes sense to start with them.

As for the term JABC.... It is a cute insider short hand. What it fails to communicate is that people purchased those guns for a reason. They were not "fooled" by the names. They knew low quality when they saw it. They were presented with a product that could accomplish a task at a price they could afford. I always laugh when I hear these statements. All those who believe that "their" grandparents or great grandparents were stupid hold your hands up now. Hmm, no hands showing.

I have never heard stories about gangs of armed Belgians running through the streets forcing people to buy their cheapest shotguns. Yet, Gunbroker and Auction Arms always have a healthy supply of these guns. Quite honestly, I have no illusions about why my forebearers left Europe. They were not wanted there. They were poor. They came here, but they were still poor. Some people do consider the T. Barker gun's of the world important: http://www.museum.state.il.us/RiverWeb/harvesting/harvest/waterfowl/tools_techniques/guns/

So if they consider them important, then maybe we should bother with them enough to at least properly document their origins before we toss them out the door as unworthy.

Pete

PeteM
I'm recalling from memory here...what I meant was Centaure is also a trade name used by Hanquet...if I remember correctly the Hanquets either ran or owned Fabrique Armes de Reunies (sp?)(Centaure factory) that made some low end doubles, using non ML based actions...make your own assumptions from there...only two others were making reciever forgings.

If it's important to you, I can probably dig up an old catalog...I didn't trade it away so I must still have it somewhere...in the front of the catalog there are pics of two Hanquets (brothers maybe) at the helm of the company...

In fact most Belgian collectors know Centaure only as Reunies and the connection to Pieper is new to at least myself...

I guess that you would prefer if I abondoned the JABC moniker altogether...which is OK with me

also...when did WIPO start going back in time to before WW II?
I thought WIPO was for current trademarks only.

RC, thank you for that information. I must have a strange cat here made for the German market as it has markings in French & in German. It has a round cross-bolt, fourth fastener, no side-clips, and is marked "Machine Made Safety Action" as well as Bayard/Pieper Herstal. Also, as 16 bore it weighs 6 lbs. 2 oz. with 29" bbls. A lovely little thing retaining 90% CC that is my dedicated Prairie Chicken gun.

Thanks again, sv

Steve,

I would love to see pictures of this one.

Pete

2 Piper,
Thanks for the explanation of the Pieper system...how did you figure out the barrels go only half way through(?) from the patents or looking at the guns?
Also, if your interested, Pieper had a patented ejector system, a sidecocker Blitz system, and another barrel joining patent, and probably a few others if I go sniffing around...Alain's littlegun site says there are from 69 to over 100 patents, but I can only find 5 or so relating to doubles.
If you want, I can send them, or heres the numbers if you want to run them through the DEPATISnet system yourself

Blitz patent is DE73747

Barrel patent is DE15138 not the same as the US patent

Ejector patent is DE73762

The patents may help to date a gun if nothing else

PeteM,
about that horse and rider (knight)...isn't Bayard an area of Luttich? Where the Bayard factory is and the cottage laborers worked and lived?

Steve,
Does your gun have a German pointer engraved on both sides of the action near the hinge pin?

PeteM,
I just spotted this at littlegun...it connects Hanquet, Reunies, Centaure, and Pieper

JohnM, these are the best remaining ones. The second shows it in "after-action" status.

RC, no dogs, just large open scroll work all over the frame and action balls.

sv

Robert;
I have a junker Pieper Modified Diana on which the bbls were in rather poor condition & ribs & forend lug were loose. This I feel was the result of gun not having a positive bbl check hook so upon opening, the bbls are stopped only by the forend iron contacting botttom of frame which puts a tremendous force forward on the bbl lug unless it is opened very gently. This is a hammer gun with double underbolts & Doll's Head, laminated steel bbls. I had thought about trying my hand at re-tubing it for practise & got far enough along to put a propane torch to the joint. As I heated I noted that the melting solder did not form in the rim recess but instead began to form a ring in the mid-chamber area. I have no actual evidense of the tubes being threaded though. In the 1911 "ALFA" catalog is pictured a set of bbls of another brand with the short length stubs for fitting to a mono-block which are threaded. It was I felt a possibility Pieper used the same processs.
As to the patents, at present I only know how to access US patents. I wouild greatly like to know how to acess other countries patents. Any help you could provide along those lines would be greatly appreciated. Otherwise I could PM you my e-mail for the ones you mention.
Edited; Typing Terrible!!