doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com C. Masquelier, Paul Jaeger O/U Information?

Greetings,

I just registered and this is my first post so please bear with me. I have owned and shot several older American made SxS doubles for years. I have always wanted an O/U but have never been able to find one that seemed to fit me well.

A week or so ago I had to have a firing pin replaced in my N.I.D. Ithaca 16 gauge and lo and behold over in the corner of the gunsmith's place was a 20 gauge Masquelier O/U made in Belgium for Paul Jaeger Jenkintown, PA. I shouldered this gun and at that point the die was cast. I had to have it. I went home and tried to do a search online and I found precious little information on this maker. In my younger days my first job after returning from Vietnam was in Jenkintown around the corner from Paul Jaegers shop. Many a lunch hour was spent wandering around his place drooling over the fine custom rifles being produced there. Even at my young age I realized that I was in the presence of someone and something special and rare indeed. The next day I went and purchased this gun. I paid more for this gun than I care to admit but what price love? A Google search revealed this site:

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20m%20o/a%20masquelier%20gb.htm

As it turns out the very gun shown in the second set of photos is the very gun that I have purchased. How it ended up being on that site is beyond me and remains a mystery.

If anyone here can help me with any more information concerning build quality, choke determination, age, etc. I would be very thankful.

Dave

Without verifying the serial number I would hesitate to say it is your same gun. They also made very similar guns, but more highly engraved and with better wood and finish, for Charles Daly in the 1930's. There are several owned by members on this bbs. I have one in 90%+ condition in 16 gauge. Same basic mechanics, but with added finish and features, full case coloring, ejectors, nice wood, etc.

Holy cow! My name is also Dave and my first real job after getting out of the army and finishing college back then was at Old York Rd. and Greenwood (around the corner from Jaeger's) and I also spent many lunch hours there.

ChiefShotguns,

Thanks for the reply and information. I have done some research on Charles Daly guns and you sure can tell that they are indeed very similar. Without being able to check the serial numbers of the gun on that website it is impossible to verify whether it is indeed the same shotgun, however the grain on the stock along with assorted dings and wear marks on the case hardening and wood, all match my gun perfectly. It is still a mystery. Thanks again.

GWP,

Great coincidence, I used to work at the then Industrial Valley Bank. I live up a little past Quakertown now. If I knew then what I know now, I would have spent more time drooling over at Jaegers place.

Thanks again,

Dave

Dave, welcome to The Board.

Maybe Alain can clarify the mystery for you , go here:
Alain's email

Best,

JC

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...p;cm_ite=netcon

Pete

I'm a former owner of the Cabela's gun Pete just posted--as well as Chief's.

Dave, if I recall correctly, the Masqueliers made for Jaeger were 60's vintage guns. Anyhow, there should be a date code on yours to confirm that.

Correction to above: Checked my records. That Masquelier at Cabela's, made for Jaeger, is a 1973 gun. And I don't think it has short chambers as indicated in their description. Some of their Gun Libraries do a good job of posting photos of barrel flats. Wish all of them (and all doublegun dealers) would do that.

Larry, that gun at Cabela's (AKA Brown's Gun Sales) would be stocked too high and too short for me. Did it fit you well enough to shoot it well? Nice looking gun.

Thanks all for the additional information. A buddy of mine has been to Cabelas in Hamburg, PA and has looked at that Jaeger side by side. He says it is truly a beautiful gun. It is tugging at him also. I may go with him this week and if I do, I'll will try to get a photo of the barrel flats.

As far as my O/U goes, where would I find the date code? There are two different controller marks on the barrels. One has a D with a star above and the other barrel has an F with a star above which possibly indicates either a 1951-1953 or a post 1974 gun. Please correct me if I am wrong about this. One of the things that I enjoy about this hobby is the historical aspect of these guns.

As a curiosity, I wonder how that Cabela's gun got from Iowa to Hamburg, Pa.

I sold the gun to a fellow in PA. Actually, it originally came from the Hamburg Gun Library. Saw it there when I was passing through PA, had it sent back to Owatonna for a 2nd look, ended up buying it.

Chief, I believe the subsequent owner shortened it, because that LOP would be too short for me too. The drop would've worked OK.

Dave, if it's a 60's or 70's gun, which I expect it is, the date code would be a small case letter, in script, underlined. They can be a bit harder to find on OU's sometimes than on sxs. Does yours have a one-piece forend like the gun in the photo? Sometimes on OU's with 3 piece forends, proofmarks are hidden under the wood that you don't detach when taking the gun apart.

If I knew then what I knew now, I would have gone to your bank and second mortgaged my house.

GWP, maybe you and I need to talk about my 16 gauge O/U that came from the vast Brown Ltd. Gun Library. I'll bet we can handle it without a second mortgage on your digs. It's in considerably higher condition than the one initially mentioned, however. There is an email address in my profile if you are interested. We'll keep Bro. Dave involved as well.

Chief, just to correct an erroneous impression, my "gun library" has never been very vast. I have owned a bunch of guns, but only a relative few at a time. And being much more in the shooter than collector category, if I don't shoot them well (or if I see something I think I like better), then there's some turnover in the inventory.

That O/U "Sporter" at Littlegun site looks like a decent clay crusher. I would not mind paying 700USD if it fit me well.

Gentlemen,

I could not find a dating letter on my O/U so the manufacture date shall remain a mystery. On the other hand, I just returned from Cabela's in Hamburg with my friend Rich. We looked over the SxS Masquelier Jaeger double. A very nice gun indeed. If my memory serves me correctly the date code was an "l" which would indicate a 1973 manufacture. My buddy Rich, opened his wallet and now the gun belongs to him. I am now officially announcing the formation of "The Masquelier Paul Jaeger Shotgun Collectors Society" herein after to be known as the "TMPJSCS". Our membership currently stands at two. The next meeting, to elect officers, will be held in a phone booth, the location of which will be determined at a later date.

Thanks to all for the help in my quest and here is hoping everyone has a nice and safe holiday season.

Courtesy of CC/dt. Masquelier 12b O/U, Side Opening Lever, Auto Ejectors, on the trigger-plate "Built for King Leopold of Belgium." His commentary to follow:

Thanks to revdocdrew for posting my OLD photos from aprox. 1973-5.Shot them with my c 1970 Honywell Pentax Brass Body 35mm.100 asa.Kodak Print Film. I used to help a friend with the'Dev & Printing....Now that really dates me & my Pics...Them prints aint arf bad for as old as they are...Plus no tripod and a 'Flash"!! If anybody knows the whereabouts of the Masquelier 12 O/U I still have the 'Butt-End' I cut from the stock for the 'Next Owner after "Self" had been shooting Boxed Birds and had the 'Livin Stuffin Knocked out of me with 2.3/4"Fed.1.1/4oz'Pigeon Loads.I think the guns weight was aprox.6.9ozs,with the Chequered Butt-End..It had had 2 previous owners,prior to "Self' "JRN." & WJ Holliday sr. of Indianapolis.Nobody could shoot Pigeons well with it.I think the chokes were 8" long and both had a 75% pattern @35 yds...with #7.1/2 shot.It would be "Interesting to know the Orig Factory Records????at one time in its life I am led to belive it was owned by King Farouk of Egypt. I sold it into New Mexico around1983 or 4...I think. Beautiful Gun to look at,but a'Beast to shoot! Have quite a number of "Prints" with Notable"Celebs" admiring it at Kingens Gun Club,McCordsville Ind. in the late 1970s. cc/dt

ChiefShotguns,
If I may ask about your Masquelier Daly O/U? ...the one with a left/right toggle in front of the trigger (barrel selector)..Is the gun marked Daly, Masquelier, or both? Are there any Masquelier touchmarks like the triange mask? Maybe a raised D in a sunken diamond?

Are there any indications whether or not the action was supplied by Suhler Waffenwerk (Merkel)? Not necessarily German marks, as Suhler Waffenwerk had a facility in Anvers Belgium (now Antwerp)...any GM marks?

Robert, I have had a bit of a rough day today with a young grandaughter who had to be picked up a school by ambulance and rushed to the emergency room in great pain. Turns out it's relatively not so bad, an ovarian cyst that is bursting or something. I don't know much about that stuff, but I know I am bushed. I just checked in to see what is going on before hitting the sack and saw your note. I'll get it out in the AM and check those proof marks. The gun is marked Charles Daly, not Masquelier. Larry Brown had done some research when he owned it and determined it was a Masquelier made gun, based, I believe, partly on prior writings by Don Zutz. I actually had the same books he referred to and agreed with his conclusions completely. Since then, I discovered a link to an entry on littlegun (I think that's right) that actually pictured a Masquelier marked gun that appeared identical. I think I still have that link and will send it as well. I later read somewhere else, maybe either in a DGJ or SS article, not sure right now, where Masquelier came along in the Daly lineage of makers after they lost their earlier connections with the other known makers, after Lindner was gone and after Sauer was out of the picture. I'll see what the marks say and let you know in the AM. It does not have the common Masquelier triangle mask mark. The D may be there, I'll look. It's a fine gun, made in 1933 if I remember right. I don't shoot it much anymore, it also doesn't fit me quite right. I may move it on to someone who fits it better than me.

Morning Robert. I checked all the marks that are visible, I do not see any raised D in a sunken diamond, nor the common Masquelier triangle mask mark. There is a Crown over D mark, and usual other Belgian proofs, but nothing else. I do not believe this is a Merkel produced action. I do have the following, which I downloaded some time back from an area on littlegun. I can't seem to go back to it, however, they tell me now a subscription is required, and I have not subscribed.




This apparently is an ad they picked up from some publication and uploaded to littlegun. The photograph shows an action which is shaped exactly like mine, same pin locations, same reinforce buttress, everything seems exactly like mine but much plainer. Mine has a good bit of very good engraving, very good case colors remaining, that Miller SST, and better wood. Don Zutz seemed convinced these Charles Daly marked guns were made by Masquelier, and after reading his printed story and seeing the ad and photo above from littlegun, I agree. Hope this helps.

ChiefShotguns,
Thank you...about the trigger...that selector is usually the indicator of a Deforney trigger...I was trying to figure out if Deforney supplied them to Masquelier or if in fact the gun was made by Deforney. If you would like to see another Deforney with a single trigger, Thad Scott has a Deforney sidelock O/U for sale right now that has the same barrel selector.
Miller single triggers usually have the selector built into the safety slide. I don't have a copy of the patent to show you but, Gerbruder Merkel Suhler Waffenwerk opened a facility (1920's) in Belgium primarily to supply the gun trade with O/U actions... with their patented Kirsten lock up...now somebody had to buy them...you just don't see Belgian Merkels floating around...post 1930 Merkel began selling patented ejector actions to the Belgian gun trade...so I guess if your gun has a Merkel ejector system, that would offer more evidence one way or the other. I do have a copy of the Belgian Merkel patent ejector system if you would like to see it.

I hate the fact that my records don't match exacly with everyone elses, but I can't just twist them...I certainly can't change the patent records..

Later, I'll review the 10+ Miller trigger designs to see if any of the Miller clan had ever used a barrel selector that looks like Deforney's patented design...

The absence of any Masquelier proprietary touchmarks coupled to the obvious Deforney single trigger is starting to look like perhaps you were given weak information about your gun. The crowned D doesn't auger well for Masquelier being the maker either.

There is a link to the littlegun site in my initial posting. The photo of O/U is apparently the same gun that I recently purchased.

The shape of the receiver and the breech block matches up to several other early Charles Daly O/U's that I have seen for sale on other sites.

Robert, the trigger is plainly marked "Miller." Charles Daly literature of the period mentions they often fitted Miller triggers at customer request after receipt of the gun into the USA. Yea, your records do seem to be at odds with lots of others, that is strange. Other sources indicate the Crowned D mark indicates Delcour, the barrel maker. At any rate, you asked me how the gun was marked, and I answered you. I am happy with the provenance I have for the gun. Thanks very much for your input and interest.

Referring to the Masquelier/Daly tie-in, Zutz wrote:

"Some of the Masquelier guns, both side by side and over and unders, were handled by various American importers during the pre-WWII era. One of these was the well-known Charles Daly, who, roughly between 1933 and 1939, handled an over and under made by Masquelier and sold Stateside as the "Commander" style . . . The Commander vertical doubles had a rather mongrelized assembly. Their barrels were made by Neumann, which was another smaller Belgian house. When they were sold with single triggers, the triggers were generally installed in the U.S. by Miller." Not that Zutz couldn't be wrong, but the Neumann barrels may explain the absence of the Masquelier proprietary trademark.

As for the Merkel tie-in, both Chief's photos and the photo accompanying the above-referenced Zutz article show a system which is clearly NOT Kersten. Quite different from what's seen on Merkels. The Kersten barrel extensions can be seen when you look down on the receiver from the top, with the gun closed. The barrel extensions shown in the Zutz article on Masquelier, and in Chief's photo above, are clearly "hidden" when the gun is closed. Also, Kersten barrel extensions are pierced to accept a crossbolt. On the guns in both photos--Chief's and Zutz's--the crossbolt lies across the top of the barrel extensions rather than going through them. An excellent photo of a Kersten, clearly illustrating its differences from the guns in Chief's and Zutz's photos, can be found on p. 78 of Zutz's book, "The Double Shotgun". Or for that matter, you can just look at any Merkel OU.

ChiefShotguns,
Oh yeah ...Elmer Miller did have a selector like that in his model 11, which I thought that model was a SxS design...I looked at the 1929 O/U trigger because it fit with your date code of 1933...there's probably several plausable explanations as to why a post 1939 trigger would be found in a 1933 proved gun...I'll keep checking and let you know what turns up. The more I learn about the history of single triggers, the more I realize the importance of Millers role over the decades.

I'd note that on the issue of Belgian OU's, I've owned a couple Francotte OU's. One had a 3-piece forend, like a Merkel; the other a one-piece forend. Both bore strong resemblance to Merkels in that they had the deep receiver, bolsters where the barrels meet the receiver, etc. One of them was marked Francotte. The other was not (although imported by Abercrombie & Fitch), but it did have the Francotte AF/crown proprietary trademark. Both had the same type bolting system as Chief's Daly rather than the standard Kersten found on Merkels.