doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com 20 bore 2-1/2" Fauneta loads?

Any one loading for a 20 bore Paradox / Fauneta type gun?

I am looking for some loading ideas...for a late model (1930) 20 bore rifled choke SxS.

I have seen a bunch of info for the 12 bore guns but not much on the 20's. I am looking to come close to original Westley Richards ballistics 425gr bullet @ 1500 fps.

Dave,
Ross Seyfried has been working on Faunetas for some time and likely has some good loads. I don't have a number, but if you give Daniel Cote a call at The Double Gun Journal he can either give you the number or relay word you seek to talk with RS whom I found accessible three years ago as I began my own paradox-ing.
Regards, Tim

I don't have any loads for you, but I know of a person with a pressure gun for testing. I have developed my own 12 gauge loads, and sent them off for testing. If you have the bullets, he can develop a load for you if he has the powder. Tom Arbrust at Ballistic research is very reasonable, and can develop the load with your components and bullets. He can be reached at 815-385-0037
I hope this helps Greg S

Dave,
According to Ross, this is the most difficult of all loading. Basically the problem is twofold, the velocity and the bullet. I have spoken to Ross on this and know that he is making the bullets himself, which is very time consuming. The "LT" capped bullets are needed to get the velocity. The velocity is the next problem. Ross is using a duplex load of a secret combination which gets him to the 1500 fps which is needed as the guns were regulated for this load.
There is a Fauneta for sale on GA which was never able to get shooting.
Good Luck,
John

JAZ,

The 20 gauge Fauneta cartridge and its ballistic characteristics can be duplicated without employing the LT capped bullet. The biggest hurdle, coming up with a powder that would generate the required velocity while keeping the pressure around 10,000 psi though after enough trail and error this too can be overcome. As Ross wrote in the DGJ another major obstacle is regulating the bullet diameter so its flight down the barrel is basically frictionless, but is large enough that the rifled choke is not stripped. Again, this obstacle can be overcome.

As Greg S. pointed out, Tom Armburst has compiled quite a bit of hard data on the WR Fauneta load. It is my understanding that Ross has taken the next step by trying to reproduce the original LT Fauneta load. If we could employ a machinist to reproduce the LT bullet in large quantity (bring unit costs down) I would certainly be interested in purchasing. I can't imagine the Ross' frustration trying to machine a 28 gauge LT bullet (though I'm sure his efforts made machining the 20 gauge seem like a "walk in the park").

I, too, heard that the WR Fauneta offered on GunsAmerica was never able to regulate. At the end of the day questions focused primarily on whether the barrels remain in their original alignment. Bore diameter was a bit large too.

Dave W. please keep us updated as to your progress.

Mike

Progress....so far everyone has been very helpful!

I have a loaner NEI mold (470 gr) with hollow pointer (425 gr) and some suggested starting loads using "longshot" powder and a bulk powder that is OEM only.

I do not believe I will try to recreate the WR bullet...my barrels are not as heavy as the WR guns I have seen...although I have a loaded Explora cartridge in front of me and it doesn't look like rocket science.

My concern is getting MOD "minute of deer" accuracy out of the gun at a reasonable velocity (before the fall!)...if I succeed I will be more than happy!

I will keep you posted...this week the gun goes for a thorough cleaning over to Turnbull's place.

I anticipate trying some 1100-1200 fps loads to see where it shoots and working up from there...

Dave,
I had an Explora which I shot with a normal Paradox style bullet. I used the "normal" 21.5 of Unique and got 3" groups at 50 yards. Yes, these were regulated for 1500 fps but they will shoot at the lower velocities with some tinkering with wadding, crimping and powder.

Utah,
John Millar in Canada, 250-442-5616, can most likely make up the "LT Capped" bullets. I have an eight and ten Paradox and he has yet to fail making a tool or part. He is a very special machinist.
JAZ

JAZ,

Do we know each other? John has made all the molds to date for my fauneta. He also made a "day glow" front sight to use when light conditions warrant. John, Tom, Sherman and to a lesser degree Ross have all contributed during my regulating trail and error events.

We have discussed the idea of having John machine several thousand of these LT rounds, but to date I haven't heard whether he's willing to accept the project. Speaking of John, he was also instrumental in machining reloading equipment for my Greener FHT55, 8-gauge. He does do beautiful work.

Mike Land

Mike,
John Millar sounds interesting. Imagine that we can generate a market for LT Capped bullets that any number of us would buy at least 50-100 of, depending on price. Left a message on his answering machine just now. Regards, Tim

Tim,

Let me know what John decides. These could get pretty pricey. I've already passed along that I'd be in for 200. I'm just not sure he feels it's worth his time for a lot of 1,000 or so.

Dave, just out of curiosity, what is the barrel length of your Fauneta gun? Someone told me they usually had short barrels of around 24 or 25 inches. Also, have you tried conventional saboted slugs on it?

Fred

Barrels are metric approx English number is 27.75" (70cm). I have not shot it with anything yet....As soon as it comes back cleaned up (inside) we start our experimentation.

Utah,
Left a message on John's phone. No reply so far.
Best, Tim

Gents,
I do have a 20 bore Paradox mould with a hollow point if it helps. I paid through the nose for it. I would think you might be able to get the rifle to shoot with it, but it will not be easy and the results will not duplicate the 1500 FPS.
John

Another question....It was suggested that in addition to the "paradox" type bullet I try round balls in the gun. What should the size of the ball be in relation to the rifled portion of the choke? Should the balls be cast soft or hard?

I don't see why you can't get the 1500FPS load with good pressure. You just need a slow powder that won't smoke the cases. I have had good luck with IMR 4759 not 4756 in myn 12 gauge. I use 64.0 gr of IMR 4759 behind a 615gr hollow base for 1555FPS. I can't give you a starting load for the 20, but Tom Armbrust can. He teted my load at 11,400PSI and 1555FPS average. Do not use H110 or 296 as they can hang fire, and explode! I was trying AA #9, but didn't have great luck with it. Ballpowders will give you more power than the slow flake type powders for the slugs. Try double base powders, and call Tom Armbrust to discuss your loads. He can be reached at 815-385-0037. Good luck Greg S

I have never heard that. If you read the Fosberry patent, the differnece between bore a choke is about .040. Generally, you should shoot a thousandth or so less than the bore size.The bullet should be no harder than 15:1. Remeber that there are at least five variables to play with, crimping, bullet depth, powder, lead hardness and wadding. Good luck!

Hello Dave.
If you can mic the bore at the chokes I may have something that works for you.
You will probably need a sizer die, but they are good to have anyway.

Tom

Here are my measurements...

Right
Bore: .633
Choke: .60375
Groove: .62125

Left:
Bore .6325
Choke: .6045
Groove: .6225

I have a few friends in the model shop at work so a simple push through sizing die is not a problem...

You mentioned the round ball and this is something that may work

It should be self explanitory.
The driving bands are approximately .625 but there should be more than enough to size down.

Tom

That looks very interesting! What does it weigh?

It weighs 415 with pure lead.

I made a second one which weighs 515 but it is far less aerodynamic. You can hear it bleeding speed as it goes downrange.

I want to cut another one with a .625 nose so that the front band doesn't stick out on the sides.

Tom

James Gates at Dixis slugs also has a short bullet for the 20 gauge. I am unsure of the dimensions, but the weight is around 510 grains. His website, http://www.dixieslugs.com has a forum, so you can ask him about it. Greg

Dave,

As you know I have used a 20 ga paradox for some years now. I experimented quite a bit with powders, wads, cases and bullet alloy. The constant throughout was the NEI mold (the WR style mold) and the sizing diameter (a hair under the smoothbore dia). I think my bullet is right around 500gr, from memory.

The issue I encountered (and you will too based on what I remember of that gun), is that as you go higher in velo you have to go harder in bullets to avoid heavy leading/stripping and consequent total loss of accuracy. I made the mistake of putting too much weight on what I read, written by Ross and others, about bullet alloy. The 15:1 or 20:1 alloy everyone says is de rigeur is too soft unless you have very heavy deep ratchet rifling of the H&H type. Your gun (and mine) have less aggressive rifling, they won't spin a bullet that soft unless the velo is very low.

I started out with brass cases by Magtech..they look so romantic but they are a waste of time. First, they are too thin so you need special wads etc. and the bullet kind of floats behind the crimp. Second, they split after two loads.

I ended up using one of the SR powders, a fairly mild load, a plastic obturator over the powder (so absolutely no blow-by), a couple of vege wads, and Rem ribbed cases cut back to 2.5" ...these grip the slug very nicely so no problems with crimping. I also put lube in the bullet groove and shoot it without the hollow point. It doesn't expand because it's quite hard (94:3:3) so no point in HP. The flat nose and the large bore diameter are devastating anyway.

Just work up watching your chrono til the bullets start flying all over the place and then back off. Bronze brush your choke after each pair to keep things consistent. Just remember to do that in the field as well. If you get over 1000 fps, that's enough to kill an eland with one shot (I tried and it does) so no problem with a deer.

I was lucky in that my gun did not require reregulation, it shoots 4" at 100 with the bbls overprinting. I have no idea how your bbls are regulated since I never shot that gun. I would try a bunch of different powder and load combos (you are stuck for bullet choice with NEI cast or the Lyman and Lee sabots I think)