doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com OT (sorta) Classic Rifle advice

I have always been a shotgun guy. But, I have a boy approaching 13 who is quite good with a .22 and shotgun and he REALLY wants to move up in rifles. I want one then primarily for me but with him in mind. (When he is truly old enough, he can pick his own.)

My only big game rifle is a Rem. pump .270. I have some very nice rifle wood and would like to get a "classic" rifle that recoils little and shoots very accurately and hits hard enough for deer and smaller. I will probably have it restocked so trashed wood is ok (and could have it reblued if necessary.) I am thinking a .243 caliber but could use advice on the gun. (Or caliber for that matter.) But I want the caliber to be very common with lots of factory loads available.) My thought was a pre-64 model 70 or something along those lines. I also like lever action guns but don't know them to be real accurate.

I know we are a "classic" gun group here and I certainly would consider some kind of single shot or other "classic" but truth is I know little about them. Would prefer American made. Again, accuracy and a trim gun are important to me. I can be patient but I need to know what to look for. Suggestions?

I can recommend the Ruger #1 in .243. The model with the Alexander Henry forearm is especially nice looking and light and quick to point for anyone, especially a youngster or woman. Light recoil and easy to reload for just about any kind of game short of elk and bear. You'll learn to make the first shot count too.

Remi 700 limited edition 'Classic'. The following are good vintage years: 1981, 1982, 1994, 2001, 2003.

If money is no object, a pre 64 Model 70 in .257 is an ideal "Classic" rifle!

Jim

0.257 Roberts is a true Classic but .30 WCF or .30/30 would be my first choice in a medium power accurate rifle because it has been used extensively and ammo is always just around the corner.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Pre64 M70 in 30-06, 270, 243 or 257. A Ruger #1 in any of those + 7mm Mauser (I think they made some it that cal.). For a lever gun, I'd go for a 50's or 60's vintage Savage 99 in 300Savage or maybe 250Savage. Very common, very nice and accurate too. Ammo not all that uncommon. Easy on the shoulder, easy to 'scope. Buying, restocking, blueing, etc a Win70 will put the budget up into a bracket where you could probably be buying a decent Mauser or Mannlicher sporter, my first pick. But the ammo situation probably wouldn't fit the criteria.

You did say 'Classic".


http://www.griffinhowe.com/usedgun-rf.cfm

Griffin & Howe-Mauser
Regular Price $5,250.00, Now $4,250.00
.257 Roberts, Weight 9 lbs,4 ozs, Barrel length 24 ", bolt

Its pretty hard to beat a 6mm for an all around deer round. The .243 is the classic survivor of the American 6's, it has even been adopted in Europe. A 270 Winchester may be the better all around round, but recoil becomes an issue w/heavier bullets/lighter rifles. However, since you already own one, that might simplify the cartridge availability issue/concern some.

In an American bolt action, as to brand it is hard to beat a Remington 700 for accuracy & readily available accessories, the Winchester pre-64 model 70's are as classic American as one is likely to find or utilize as an action base and the Ruger 77 flat bolts are known to have been very good more modern American rifles w/later iterations also performing very well.
If you want a small production bolt action classic, look for a Remington C grade from their custom shop. Those rifles had it all, hand fit & finish, custom stock, etc. Winchester had their Super Grades, but today you should expect to pay more, sometimes much more, for one of them.
For inexpensive & accurate, the Remington model 788's all shot very well and had super triggers & bbls right out of the box. Prices have gone up, but not rediculously so.

For scopes, a fixed 4X is plenty for deer hunting, I don't care what anyone says to the contrary. Have and use a good pair of glasses for glassing. I find a heavy 'post' to be a very useful reticle, but a standard cross wire works well also. Modern 'duplex' reticles are simply heavy posts with fine wires in the center, but they are cluttered compared to the single post type.

I will cast a vote for an older Marlin 336 with the Ballard rifling as being the better American classic lever action and as Ramiey says the 30-30 is a great choice in cartridges .. keep it inside 150 yards because of trajectory, but a good lever can put five shots inside 1.5" at 100 yards off a bench w/decent iron sights. The Marlins do not need extra holes drilled & tapped to mount a good receiver sight.

My suggeston is to bring your son in on it now; let him tell you his pref in rifle type and provide him with enough written info from other sources to make an informed decision on the cartridge choice. Tons of literature exists, much of it based on real feild information & observations too. His second choice when he becomes a bit older/bigger/wiser will be even closer to the mark of what he likes, but this first run will have significant value beyond mere action & caliber choices. He may even get a rifle that serves all his needs for a lifetime of deer sized and under use.

The Ruger #1's are fine single shot rifles, but they tend to be a bit heavy. Many of the older ones had spectacular wood. If you go that way, a 7x57 while a non-American round makes for a good all round cartridge choice.

Idle thots, post Thanksgiving dinner ... & nap :-)

edit: If you wish him exposed to 'Classic', buy a copy of Michael's book and let him learn some of what Michael has gleaned in a lifetime of pursuit.

Who wants 9lb4oz .257 Roberts with "Mickey Mouse" <1" tubed scope? My .375H&H with sling, 4 cartridges, and Kahles 3-9x42 scope weighs only couple ounces more!
It's too much for young one, but that .35 cal Dakota 76 would make a dandy Elk und up North American big game rifle. The price also seems fair (not that ole' Kimber would not do just as well and for < half of that tag). I don't see anything else interesting und affordable there.

My call for a 13 yr. old would be a single shot in .243. The Ruger 1 with the stalking rifle fore-end is classic (in fact, that's what I use, in .270), but a New England Firearms break-open single is kind of classic too. The NEF would get my call for safety because of the hammer and the gizmo it has that prevents a misfire if the hammer slips. That could be important in small and excited hands...Geo

I'd have to agree with Paul. Even the 1B in .243 with a midwgt. barrel would be a load for the average 13 yr. old. At any rate don't get a laminated stock; that probably adds 2 lbs. of glue. How about a latter-day but still New Haven m70?

jack

Not an American classic and probably a questionable deer cartridge, but there is a Husquevarna bolt action single shot in 32-20 for sale in the For Sale section of this site under "Six Guns For Sale"...Geo

The answer is: Savage model 99 in .250 savage. You can't get any more classic in an American rifle, it fulfills your desire for a lever action, and the .250 is as easy a shooting round as anything, plus it delivers a little more force on impact than a .243. The stocks are also generally on the shorter side, so he shouldn't have any problems shooting it, and it's plenty accurate enough.

As a father of two sons who have gone on to shoot NCCA competition for The Citadel and as gunsmith who has built them and many others custom youth rifles, I'd suggest a Remington 700 youth stocked model in synthetic. Caliber .243/.257 Roberts. As he grows taller and can appreciate fine wood, a custom stock of quality wood. If $$$ is not an object I'd get a pre-64 Win. Mod. 70 action with a Krieger #4/5 barrel in .257/.280 Ackley with a good 30mm scope and some of Henry Pohl's (Great Am. Gunstocks)fire sale quality wood. That's my $0.02 worth. Best, Dr. Bill

Calibres your son will never grow out of are Savage 250 and 7 X 57 Mauser, soft-recoil, very accurate and capable of taking most North American big game. They're all I use---Ruger 77 for the 250, circa 1950 CZ Brno 7mm.

King and Skater,
Why the .250 Savage instead of the .243? The ballistics chart I looked at shows the .250 having less energy and more drop at distance. And, certainly the .250 ammunition is less prevelant than .243.
http://www.pacinfo.com/~dropinsator/chart2.htm#250%20Savage

What I DON'T know about rifles is big. Thanks for help and insight.
Jake

For me personally, I don't believe there is any such thing as a "classic bolt action". A Ruger #1 is hard to beat but, as others have suggested, it's a bit heavy for a youngster. A good choice would be a Browning 78 in .243. It's a true classic action (highwall), is not terribly heavy, and youngsters (and oldsters for that matter) should learn to hunt with a single shot so they learn to make the first one count. I'm not real fond of useing varmint calibers on deer but the .243 is adequate and the recoil is such that a kid can shoot it comfortably.

Cody, As I said, I am not opposed to a single shot (or for that matter a lever or something else). In fact, I quite like the idea of a true "classic." So, where do I get such a thing? Jake

Mr. Jakearoo:

My suggestions are tainted by the fact that I am a confirmed single shot rifle sort of guy, with minor infidelities involving old Marlin lever guns.

For a small person you might look for a Ruger #3. They are essentially the same as the #1 but smaller and plainer, and considerably lighter. One of the chamberings available was .44 Magnum. Such a rifle would be an effective close range deer rifle, light enough for a young man to handle and kind and gentle enough for him to shoot. The #3 has been out of print for a good while but are still found at gun shows and the like.

Another thought is the copy of the Stevens 44-1/2 being made by CPA Corporation. This is a switch barrel design, and so adds a bit of flexibility. The down side is the gun comes with a double set trigger, which is probably not ideal for a new shooter, or anybody in a field gun for that matter.

The Ballard Rifle Co. makes field type rifles on their Winchester and Ballard actions. Real nice stuff but not a cheap date.

Of course there are all the old original single shot rifles, but folks tend to be quite proud of them as well. One good option might be to find an original single trigger Stevens 44-1/2, which are smaller and lighter than most (including the CPA copy) and have a barrel fit that is chambered to the cartridge of your choice.

Best of luck to you and your son.

Glenn

Glenn, Thank you. New areas to explore. RCC

With me, Jakeroo, there's a lot of sentiment going with the Savage 250 which fell out of favour with manufacturers 30-odd years ago, came back with some new rifles in that calibre, and now is fading again with ammunition in short supply. I reload.

I got hooked on the calibre many years ago from watching older hunters, all superb marksmen with lever Savage 99s or bolt actions; either design was eye-opening accurate. I read somewhere recently that the 250 had an edge-- with heavier bullets? I'll look again.

Handloading, no problem getting 2500-2600fps with a 120-grain bullet. I'll use either the 250 or 7mm if a caribou hunt shapes up in Labrador next month. It would be the same toss-up for me between the 250 and 243---except for the sentiment.

One caveat: the .25s are finicky, performing significantly better with some cartridges (or loads) than others. The 257 Roberts was really fussy. But I never saw or heard of a 250 Savage that wasn't accurate, given half a chance.

I purchased a Remington Model 7 in 7mm-08 for my wife.

It has become MY favorite rifle!
No recoil, lightweight.

Gooser

For a starter rifle, you could do worse than a Remington Model 7 in either .243, .260 Rem or 7mm08. The Model 7 even came in a youth model, if I recall correctly. When he outgrows the youth stock, you can find all kinds of aftermarket stocks (mostly glass, not wood, but wood is available).

If you're going to go something other than bolt action, I'd stay away from the single shots. I think you'll find them more of a specialty item than a youth rifle. My recommendation would be either the Savage Model 99 in .300 Savage, .243, .308 or .250 Savage or the Winchester Model 88 in either .243 or .308.

FWIW, I started all three of my boys on a used Savage Model 340 bolt action .30-30. They weren't pretty, but they were functional, had a detachable magazine and were light enough that the kids could carry them. The .30-30 is an effective deer killer out to at least 150 yards and most kids shouldn't be shooting even that far except off a bench. The rifles use a side mount for a scope, but they are easy to find. The older ones weren't drilled and tapped so look on the left side of the receiver or find one already having a scope mounted.

Jakeroo, I looked in the Hornady, Hodgdon and Sierra reloading manuals for Savage 250 and 243 loads. None listed over 105-grain bullets for the 243.

The Hornady book says" Much of the original acclaim about the all-around capabilities of the 243 can be credited to the late Warren Page."

The Sierra book says "One reason for the successful reception of the 243 is the greater sectional density of the lighter bullets which means you have better remaining velocities for long range targets."

I'm making no claims for the 250 over the 243, only replying to your question why some may prefer the Savage 250.

Guys, Tell me about this gun. A pre-64 Model 88 in .243. One significant bid.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=85017020

and

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=85754062

Jake

Ruger #1 in 7x57

This topic is a big can of worms, just like what is the best classic shotgun. But, if you are looking for a rifle that doesn't have too much recoil, but enough bullet to hunt any deer in North America (from the 200 pound + bruisers up north to the 100 pound desert bucks), I'd recommend something bigger than 243/6mm. The heaviest bullet typically loaded is 100 grains. Go one step up to 257 Roberts or 25-06 and you get 120 grain bullets. Great first gun calibers with low recoil, great accuracy and plenty of good factory loads (sounds like you don't handload) are 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser, 7mm-08, and 7x57 Mauser.

Not that you can't kill deer well with a 6mm/243, one of my nicest bucks was shot in TX with a 22-250.

For a classic rifle that you will restock, MidwayUSA sells Remington 798 barreled actions (imported Yugoslav m98 Mausers) in most of the good calibers. Remington 700s and the Mauser clones all have good availability for restocking. Can't go wrong with the Ruger bolt actions or No. 1s., either.

Sky is the limit for prices. Montana 1999 makes barreled actions based on the pre-64 Winchester action. They sell them for about a grand and it is a good price for what they make.

What you are willing to pay will cut down the choices you'll need to make. Best of luck.


http://www.midwayusa.com/esearch.exe/sea...or=all_products

I rifle hunt the woods and cedar thickets, so the "classic rifle" for me would be a lever gun, I've two Winchester '92s.
Shots are taken to 50yards, so no scope needed, it's an up-close affair.

If I had a kid .243 or 7mm-08 Kimber 84M 'Classic' would be my numero uno choice.

Jake, if you want a 78 you will have to find one at a gun show as i don't think they've been made for quite some time. There's been lots of great suggestions and while everyone has their favorite gun/action and calibre, the problem here, as I see it, is defining "classic".

BTW, my son shot his first big game critter (an elk) with my browning 78 in .270 gibbs when he was 14. He had no trouble with the weight or recoil.